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Post by Gary on Jul 2, 2015 9:33:53 GMT -6
Matthew 24-25 and Luke 17 have been a great source of confusion for me, firstly because until recently I hadn't taken the time to study these passages in which Jesus describes the end of the age. Secondly, because post-tribulationists use them as their chief proof-texts. And thirdly, because many pre-tribulationists such as Jack Kelley teach that the entirety of both passages apply to the Second Coming, in a sense conceding the argument to the post-tribulation viewpoint. Yet, from within these passages come the most classical pre-trib rapture imagery: "One will be taken and the other left" (Matthew 24:40) "But about that day or hour no one knows" (Matthew 24:36) "Just as it was in the days of Noah" (Luke 17:26) "It was the same in the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28) A lot of the confusion appears to be cleared up when the original pre-tribulational interpretation of Matthew 24:36-25:30 and Luke 17:22-37 is restored. Essential to understanding Matthew 24 in particular is that Jesus appears to be using a chiasm, answering the disciples' two question in reverse order. First He explains the signs that precede the Second Coming and then changes the subject (v. 36) and explains to the disciples that His coming for them will essentially be without signs. There is strong confirmation of this subject change in v. 36 with Jesus' use of the Greek "peri de". Here are some scholarly articles that I find to be pretty convincing: www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/a-defense-of-the-rapture-in-the-olivet-discoursebiblicalreader.com/reader/Rapture_in_Matthew_24-25.htmTo me the remaining confusion has to do with Jesus' cryptic description of eagles or vultures gathering around a body in Matthew 24:28 (Second Coming section) and Luke 17:37 (rapture section). This is partially cleared up in that the "body" in Matthew is ptoma, which has a negative connotation and means only "carcass" and the "body" in Luke is soma, which generally means a living body, with the exception of Christ's body when He died, and thus has a positive connotation. Thus in Matthew 24:28, Jesus is referring to the direct context of "false messiahs and false prophets". These evil men are like vultures preying on the dead. In Luke 17:37, however, the positive connotation may in fact be a powerful rapture proof verse: the body "soma" is Christ's body and the eagles are the raptured saints. The eagles are gathered together to Him in the air and then proceed into heaven. Consider Isaiah 40:31 and Luke 22:16 in light of this possibility. Here is one take on this: tribulationrisingcom.fatcow.com/matthew-24-and-the-rapture/ |
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Post by gregt on Apr 25, 2017 17:50:18 GMT -6
So, is this verse referring to the pre trib rapture:
Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
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Post by Gary on Apr 26, 2017 8:50:59 GMT -6
So, is this verse referring to the pre trib rapture: Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. That's a good question. I'm honestly undecided. Most watchers seem to be placing it in the rapture category these days - either to say it is pointless to watch and look for signs, or the exact opposite, to say that the phrase is a Jewish idiom for the Feast of Trumpets (Yom Teruah was the only feast on a new moon and so the exact day could not be predicted). The big question with verse 36 is whether or not its context is the two preceeding verses (34-35) or the next verse, verse 37. If 34-35 then "no man knows the day or hour" would be about either the Second Coming (verse 34) or the actual end of the world/new heavens & new earth (verse 35). If the context is verse 37 then it seems to me the rapture would be a stronger candidate. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2017 10:54:09 GMT -6
"Watch" or some form of it, is mentioned 48 times in the New Testament. Whether to the Jewish audience, or Gentile/Jewish believer audience - 'watch' is what we are encouraged to do. Because Matthew 24:36 seems so highly debatable and arguable among well intentioned people(those who know Jewish history, those who haven't read and are scared to think about what it alludes to , those who like to 'protect' the mysteries of God), I choose to move on to other verses. One I have been most interested in as of late is 1st Corinthians 15:20 "Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept" and Revelation 14:4, speaking of the firstfruits. Seems to be different 'harvests'......
Also verses about the 'hidden' ones.
These are where 'rapture' really takes on meaning.
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Post by gregt on Apr 26, 2017 11:22:06 GMT -6
Gary, I asked because I am seeing a bit of a problem with linking Rev. 12:5 to the pre trib rapture. I have always heard that nothing had to be fulfilled for the rapture to happen, yet if the rapture is signified by the 9/23/17 alignment, then it was NOT imminent before this sign.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2017 13:57:01 GMT -6
Gary, I asked because I am seeing a bit of a problem with linking Rev. 12:5 to the pre trib rapture. I have always heard that nothing had to be fulfilled for the rapture to happen, yet if the rapture is signified by the 9/23/17 alignment, then it was NOT imminent before this sign. I've heard that too, but I don't think it is true. It's one thing to say that the rapture is imminent in the sense that it is soon and most will be caught by surprise. It's an entirely different thing to say nothing has to happen first. A lot of things had to happen first... John writing the book of Revelation, the Gentile Church forming and growing, a certain number coming in, the rebirth of Israel, and many more. I think some people take imminency a little too far. God knows exactly when the rapture will occur and he planned it out from the beginning of time. He's not still making up his mind about it. From the Church's perspective we're always supposed to be ready and watching because the truth is most Christians will be caught off guard even with all the signs. I'm not saying they're going to be left behind, I'm just saying the vast majority of Christians will be surprised because Jesus will return for them like a thief since they're not watching. I guess the consequence for them is that they'll be missing out on a lot of rewards and commendations. |
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Post by watchmanjim on Apr 27, 2017 16:38:20 GMT -6
Yes. I don't think the rapture is truly unforeseeable. I have always heard that "nothing else has to happen in order for the Rapture to happen" and that is not, in my opinion, a properly true outlook. Nor is it true that we an not know when it is coming. We may truly not know the day or the hour, but we might be able to narrow it down to the year, the month, and even a batch of days.
Also keep in mind: We know exactly when the SIGN will be, but we don't know if the Rapture will occur at exactly the same time as the sign. It could happen before, or more likely, after.
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Post by Gary on Apr 28, 2017 10:44:14 GMT -6
Gary, I asked because I am seeing a bit of a problem with linking Rev. 12:5 to the pre trib rapture. I have always heard that nothing had to be fulfilled for the rapture to happen, yet if the rapture is signified by the 9/23/17 alignment, then it was NOT imminent before this sign. Yeah, I've heard J.D. do a good word study on some of the words involved with "imminency". A better translation of "soon" in Revelation might actually be "quickly" in the context of things "revving up". In others Jesus will come quickly, but not until the God-ordained signs and time occur. It will be a huge surprise to the vast majority, but not necessarily for diligently watching Believers. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2017 12:56:27 GMT -6
Technically, the rapture is before the sign, providing it does occur this year. The rapture according to 1 Cor 15:52, occurs at the last trumpet. There are a series of 100 trumpets blown during the Feast of Trumpets. This year it occurs sometime between Sept 20 at sundown and Sept 22 at sundown. The Feast begins after two witnesses are interviewed by the Sanhedrin and the new moon has been identified. It's the feast also known as the feast where no man knows the day or the hour because the start time is not known. It begins sometime over a 48 hour period. The 100th trumpet is known as the last trumpet. Then on the next morning, Sept 23 the sign appears. Isn't that interesting, it appear after the church disappears. It appears to people who aren't looking for it and couldn't see it if they were looking for it because the sun is up. Clothed in the sun.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2017 13:13:32 GMT -6
So, technically the rapture isn't waiting for the sign, the sign is waitng for the rapture. The sign itself looks like a judgement, it's a signpost kicking off the tribulation.
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Post by Gary on Apr 28, 2017 14:22:45 GMT -6
Interesting points Rick in light of Isaiah 66:
“Before she was in labor
she gave birth;
before her pain came upon her
she delivered a son.
Who has heard such a thing?
Who has seen such things?
Shall a land be born in one day?
Shall a nation be brought forth in one moment?
For as soon as Zion was in labor
she brought forth her children.
Shall I bring to the point of birth and not cause to bring forth?”
says the Lord;
“shall I, who cause to bring forth, shut the womb?”
says your God.
Also the Hebrew word in the above passage for "land" is translated "earth" 655 in the OT. In other words, "shall the earth bring forth in one day?" Connect this with Isaiah 26:
Like a pregnant woman
who writhes and cries out in her pangs
when she is near to giving birth,
so were we because of you, O Lord;
we were pregnant, we writhed,
but we have given birth to wind.
We have accomplished no deliverance in the earth,
and the inhabitants of the world have not fallen.
Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise.
You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy!
For your dew is a dew of light,
and the earth will give birth to the dead.
Come, my people, enter your chambers,
and shut your doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until the fury has passed by.
For behold, the Lord is coming out from his place
to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity,
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2017 15:48:04 GMT -6
Gary, I appreciate this site so much. There is so much good stuff here. I never considered the idea of imagery before. I see now that Paul who was the apostle to the gentiles uses the imagery of Christ as the head and the church as the body. Scott pointed out in his video how that imagery is consistent with old testament passages. The imagery Paul uses, inspired by the Holy Spirit points to the Feast of Trumpets for the rapture.
Then Jesus used imagery of the bride of Christ in the parable of the bridesmaids and in a reference to how he would go to prepare a place for us (the church) and this imagery also points to the Feast of Trumpets. This is understood by looking at the Jewish marriage tradition. The groom to be goes to prepare a place in his fathers house. Then when he comes to collect his bride and take her away, it is on a day and hour that only the father knows. Again, a reference to the Feast of Trumpets. So cool.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2017 15:53:26 GMT -6
On a side note, my understanding of Matthew 24:28 was that of judgement. A reference to the great supper. It says, "Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather". The corpses will be everywhere.
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Post by watchmanjim on Apr 28, 2017 19:32:35 GMT -6
The corpses are not from the rapture, though-- all believers' corpses will be removed from the earth at the rapture.
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Post by watchmanjim on Apr 28, 2017 19:38:58 GMT -6
Here's the thing about the date of the rapture. We know within a day or so, when the SIGN is going to occur, but the rapture does not HAVE to be the same day as the sign. The biggest reason I say this, is because, in my understanding, the sign is as much about Israel as it is about the church. Read Isaiah 66 again, thinking about the context for Israel:
sa 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
Isa 66:9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.
Isa 66:10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:
Isa 66:11 That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.
Isa 66:12 For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.
Isa 66:13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.
Isa 66:14 And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the LORD shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies.
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