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Post by mike on Jun 7, 2021 11:25:30 GMT -6
This teaching helped me see things more clearly. Wont you take the time to unlearn some of the things you may have learned that could be incorrect OR learn something new altogether? This is very systematic in the approach in determining who is Israel/Judah/Joseph/Ephraim. disciple4life , boraddict , Natalie , venge , sog , yardstick, uscgvet, OTHERS
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Post by uscgvet on Jun 7, 2021 13:01:31 GMT -6
He teaches Commonwealth Theology en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_TheologyAnd it almost sounded like he hinted to some kind of Hebrew Roots theology, wanting us to go back under the law of Moses, like get circumcised in the flesh. I can't agree with that. The law has been nailed to His cross. ----------------- Edit: after reading the wiki on CT: Law and grace Commonwealth Theology does not view Law and Grace to be mutually exclusive "dispensations" of God's work among humankind.[35] CT asserts the word "Law" (Torah) in the Old Testament means "God's instructions," which continue to be good and beneficial (Rom. 7:12; 1 Tim. 1:8). Commonwealth theologians reject the interpretation that the Law has been done away with and view such a doctrine as a dangerous and slippery slope that has led western societies to distance themselves from the Ten Commandments and propelled the Church toward the anomie of the evangelical left. ----------------- Yea... I completely reject this CT doctrine based on the writings of Paul. CT is wrong on this.
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Post by mike on Jun 7, 2021 13:22:18 GMT -6
uscgvet I didnt notice him say or hint towards Hebrew roots, where did he say that, maybe I missed it? He says several times about 'dispensational brothers'...to which I understand why he says those things. Anyway thanks for taking the time to listen. Although you may not see it this way, it helps me.
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Post by uscgvet on Jun 7, 2021 14:17:01 GMT -6
1. At minute mark 21:21 he states he is a member of Commonwealth Theology
2. At minute mark 54:31 he states he is a member of Commonwealth Theology
3. I picked up on the "we need to follow Moses Law" at minute mark 45:17
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Post by uscgvet on Jun 7, 2021 14:26:59 GMT -6
One can a) be a Jew and keep the whole law perfectly (Jesus Christ the Son of God) b) be a Jew and unbeliever in the work of Christ on the cross and is also a violator of all of the Law by breaking a single commandment (James 2) <<C.T. b.1) a Jew, unbeliever in Christ, but by Grace, few are reserved by God as a remnant (Romans 11:4-5) c) be a believer in Christ and is gifted Grace through Faith and is freed from the bondage of the works of the law (Galatians 5) d) be neither a Jew nor a believer in Christ
You are only allowed to be inside one of the five mentioned above... which one are you?
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Post by venge on Jun 7, 2021 14:53:16 GMT -6
Firstly, I am only writing this because Mike and I see alike on some of these things. I am not returning to this site to begin posting again by any means. I don't think mike posted this in order to have people agree with commonwealth theology. Rather, that the body of Christ is Israel which is comprised of Jew and Gentile. That the prophecy specifically given to the house of Judah/house of Israel are partially fulfilled in the church making us part of one of these 2 groups, namely Israel. The promises of Israel were to be realized in the seed of Christ where our mother is New Jerusalem (not current or old Jerusalem) and we (all believers) make up Israel where we present our bodies a living sacrifice which Paul says is our worship. And he says we are a Holy priesthood that was bought with the price of Christ death. If there is but 1 tree, Israel...and that tree whose branch was those given the first testament, yet because they were blinded that the Gentiles may come in - that is grafted into that same tree (under the new testament), the Gentiles are now part of Israel. There is only 1 tree we are grafted into (Israel) and only 1 tree (Israel) will ever exist as God's people.
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Post by uscgvet on Jun 7, 2021 15:02:36 GMT -6
Firstly, I am only writing this because Mike and I see alike on some of these things. I am not returning to this site to begin posting again by any means. I don't think mike posted this in order to have people agree with commonwealth theology. Rather, that the body of Christ is Israel which is comprised of Jew and Gentile. That the prophecy specifically given to the house of Judah/house of Israel are partially fulfilled in the church making us part of one of these 2 groups, namely Israel. The promises of Israel were to be realized in the seed of Christ where our mother is New Jerusalem (not current or old Jerusalem) and we (all believers) make up Israel where we present our bodies a living sacrifice which Paul says is our worship. And he says we are a Holy priesthood that was bought with the price of Christ death. If there is but 1 tree, Israel...and that tree whose branch was those given the first testament, yet because they were blinded that the Gentiles may come in - that is grafted into that same tree (under the new testament), the Gentiles are now part of Israel. There is only 1 tree we are grafted into (Israel) and only 1 tree (Israel) will ever exist as God's people. I would agree with these points venge . I think mike was also trying to get these same points across. I would just urge SERIOUS caution to the CT doctrine for others watching the video. Take the meat, spit out the bones.
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Post by mike on Jun 8, 2021 8:13:18 GMT -6
Thank you both uscgvet , venge , in that I was trying to point out the clearing of some confusion in my mind about the dispersion. For me - the people of genetic Jewish decent has often created an issue I couldnt reconcile. This explanation does help me see this a bit clearer. I have long struggled with the people currently in the land of Israel being genetic Jews. Can they be? Sure. But why does it matter? to me it doesnt. Most or all Jews today practice Rabbinic Judaism, not Mosaic. The rabbis had to change the law due to the temple being destroyed, leading them away from Moses...They ignore what Moses wrote even unto this day. I was not trying to persuade anyone into Covenant Theology and missed the three times it was mentioned. I did listen to the piece where he says something like we "ignore Moses and need to get back to the law" - in context I think he was saying too many people disregard Moses. Not that we should follow the letter of the law, but the spirit thereof as it seems many have strayed from this these days into the "hypergrace" ideology. (<- not his words but how I took it)
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Post by boraddict on Jun 8, 2021 19:49:44 GMT -6
Historically, after Solomon died and Rehoboam took the throne, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rehoboam#:~:text=Rehoboam%20(%2F%CB%8Cri%CB%90%C9%99,and%20a%20grandson%20of%20David. the kingdom of Israel that was the northern ten tribes rebelled away from Rehoboam the Davidic King; and split away from the southern kingdom Judah. As a result the northern kingdom was called Israel and the southern kingdom was called Judah (Benjamin had previously merged with Judah). upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bd/Kingdoms_of_Israel_and_Judah_map_830.svg/800px-Kingdoms_of_Israel_and_Judah_map_830.svg.pngen.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_ancient_Israel_and_Judah#/media/File:Kingdoms_of_Israel_and_Judah_map_830.svgThe northern kingdom was eventually conquered piecemeal by the Assyrians but the Assyrians lost to Judah during the reign of the Davidic King Hezekiah. Later, under the reign of the Davidic King Zedekiah the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar conquered Judah and took them to Babylon. Thus, Israel that was the northern kingdom was conquered by the Assyrians and Judah that was the southern kingdom was conquered by the Babylonians. However, after the Assyrians conquered Israel then they sent some of the people back into the northern kingdom area and they merged with other peoples and they are the Samaritans. Thus, the Samaritans are the remnants of the northern kingdom Israel. Also, as time passed then Judah took on the name of Israel and many believe that the peoples conquered by the Assyrians merged back into Judah. However, the kingship is exclusive to Judah and Christ was a Jew by birthright and also a Davidic King having been born to the tribe of Judah and the first born of Mary who was by birthright the heir to the throne. That is, if she was a man she would have been rightfully the king over Judah. However, that birthright to be king over Judah fell upon Jesus; the first born of Mary. Please remember, the tribe of birth is designated by the mother and not the father. That is, if a man of the tribe of Ephraim married a woman of the tribe of Judah then the children of that marriage follow the mother and are Jews; not Ephraimites. Also, the dominant tribe of the northern kingdom was Ephraim and as such the northern kingdom Israel was also called Ephraim. Thus, people of the other tribes in the northern kingdom were not only called by the tribe of their birth but also the tribe that dominated the northern kingdom that was Ephraim. So a person at that time could claim the tribe of their birth and that they were of Ephraim and also of Israel. Likewise in the south a person of Benjamin could claim the name Judah and as time passed they also took the name Israel. However, since all the people from the tribes were of the old man Israel then they all could take that name. Even though they were not technically from the northern kingdom. So I guess it depends what time period a person is talking about. Today the people of Judah are called Israel and it is commonly believed that the other tribes have merged back into that tribe. Yet, when the Savior spoke he often referenced Israel and not Judah that indicates to me that he considers Israel to be a separate group from Judah. Then at times he spoke in a way to suggest that Judah was included in Israel. So I guess it is the context of the verse by which we can determine his intent. That he came only for the house of Israel means that he came for all twelve tribes including the tribe of adoption that Ephraim was historically. That is, he came for Israel and all adoptees into that family and this means, to me at least, that the church of Christ is Israel. And this is the gospel according to boraddict. Post Script: That is, Jesus came for His people and it does not matter if they are literal blood of Israel, the old man, but that His people are Israel via adoption into Ephraim; the tribe of adoption. Thus, Jesus came for all people and they belong in Ephraim via adoption if they are not of the bloodline. Thus, He came for Israel that historically is Ephraim. Also, please consider that the King of Israel, although a Jew by birthright, is also of the priesthood of what tribe? Ephraim. In other words, a Davidic King is not of the priesthood by virtue of being born in Judah but being in Ephraim as well. As a result, Davidic Kings are not traditionally of the priesthood but are Kings in Judah only. However, Jesus was a Davidic King in Judah and also of the priesthood and therefore a high priest in Israel. Or better stated, Jesus was born of the tribe of Judah and He is the God of this universe and all priesthood authority in Israel comes from Him. And since the church of Christ is Israel and He being that authority from which all power is derived then He is the first high priest in Israel from which all other priests in Israel derive their authority. That is, He is the only King that is the High Priest and all other kings that are priests derive their authority from Him (Rev. 1:6, 5:10, 17:14, 19:16).
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Post by Natalie on Jun 9, 2021 7:02:35 GMT -6
uscgvet, would this guy's theology impact his view of who Israel/Judah/etc are?
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Post by uscgvet on Jun 9, 2021 7:37:13 GMT -6
uscgvet , would this guy's theology impact his view of who Israel/Judah/etc are? I believe this guy's understanding of the churching being adopted as sons into Israel is likely correct. Psalm 82:6 was quoted by Jesus directly in John 10:24-42 to make a point that we are sons of the Most High. The fact that Jesus, Paul, John, Peter, Luke, Jude all keep quoting verses in the O.T., as it relates to Israel/Judah/Ephriam/etc, but as a "type and shadow" for us, I would agree with C.T.'s linkage of Israel and the Church. Paul heavily relied on O.T. to make important points for us. And since Irenaeus ascribed Paul's writings of 1 Thessalonians 4&5, and 2 Thessalonians 2 to Jeremiah 4&6, I think it would be safe to assume Jeremiah's prophecies (and the rest of the OT's prophecies in a more general since), as written to physical Israel, are also a type and shadow for the Church (at a world wide scale) and for unbelieving Israel (at a local scale). Commonwealth Theology utilized Hosea 8 correctly, IMHO, where Israel was basically absorbed into gentile world. Where C.T. went WAY... WAY... overboard is where they are trying to have the Church fall back under the 600+ laws of Moses. They probably made this decision based on all of the verses that show the Lord being angry that Israel never keeps His commandments. I really like venge 's breakdown he posted.
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Post by Natalie on Jun 9, 2021 7:43:17 GMT -6
uscgvet, thank you. I hadn't gotten time to watch the video yet. Yes, I agree with venge. I don't understand the need to separate Israel into Judah and Ephraim, but maybe the video will help.
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Post by uscgvet on Jun 9, 2021 8:04:29 GMT -6
uscgvet , thank you. I hadn't gotten time to watch the video yet. Yes, I agree with venge. I don't understand the need to separate Israel into Judah and Ephraim, but maybe the video will help. Well, I don't claim to fully understand it all either, but it was heavily talked about in Romans. There is, or now was, a separation. Though, through Christ, the separation has been brought back together...Spiritually? The separation is brought back together... physically... when Christ returns the 2nd time...? A physical gathering together also exists with physical Israel over there across the pond.
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Post by boraddict on Jun 9, 2021 10:55:18 GMT -6
uscgvet, Natalie, there may be several reasons for the separation such as the concept of two witnesses, as in two distinct kingdoms in the family, to state that Jesus is Christ. This may be secular and spiritual of which the secular king is not the same as the spiritual priests. In the kingdom there have always been priests and then the addition of kings to rule the kingdom. So I guess it could be said Abraham or Noah were priests of authority from God but they were not kings ruling over a kingdom. It may be the case that the two witnesses of Rev. 11 represent these two parts of authority wherein one represents the secular kingship of Judah over the kingdom and the other represents the priesthood authority of God over the kingdom. Even today when a person goes to church they expect to see some spiritual representation of God via a holy leader; however, they do not expect to be governed secularly by that same individual. No, there seems to be a divided and balanced form of guidance for the people. As I recall from script, there is a time that the priesthood and secular government is given to one person and we know that is Christ. It seems that the governance of Christ as King is coming but the priesthood of Christ came 2,000 years ago.
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Post by venge on Jun 10, 2021 17:03:56 GMT -6
I think its important to recognize that 1 Cor says:
Our fathers are those in faith. The Church's forefathers were those of Israel not of the flesh, but Israel of the spirit that passed through the sea, as we will, who were baptized in the cloud as we are baptized in water and fire and how they ate the spiritual meat of mana which is the bread of God (his word) and drank the spiritual drink from Christ.
There is a confusion amongst believers about who is Israel and it is sad. Was there a physical Israel? Of course there was. When God/Christ talk about Israel as the sons of God, as his Holy nation....is he referring to fleshly Israel or spiritual Israel? He can only be referring to spiritual Israel. Does this mean physical Israel isnt Israel or will they will not be saved? No. It means anyone, Jew or Gentile, who has faith and walks by faith alone can be the Israel of God, can be his son and heirs to the promise. But physical Israel isnt an heir, will not receive the promise ever because physical Israel does not have faith. Only when a physical Israeli has faith does he become a son of God because of his faith.
Abraham, our forefather, was not circumcized and yet he was blessed because of that faith to which that seed is blessed. He was not blessed with righteousness for the circumcision, but those who follow after him in faith while he was UNcircumsized. That is why Paul says,
The blessing is to spiritual Israel, NOT physical Israel of the flesh. Paul goes to great lengths to demonstrate what so many miss, including myself for years and my home church today. There is not a splitting of Israel and the Church. Perhaps fleshly Israel, but the Israel that God calls his people is anyone who believes. When Christ comes to reign, and all the nations bow before him, all those in faith will be Israel as 1 Kingdom and sons of God, Holy priests, heirs to the promise.
This is why its important to stress the Church doesnt replace Israel, we are now apart of Israel being grafted into it. And that Israel is spiritual Israel because God is a spirit and we worship Him in the spirit and we control of flesh because our spirit wages war against it.
I think there are theologies out there that do impact ones view of Israel today @natalie. These same theologies impact ones view for their eschatology as well because one view is necessary in order to prove the view of the other thereby removing a plain reading of scripture. I think when we get into what came first, the chicken eschatology or the egg dispensationalism/covenant theory/ etc., we come into problems not reading the text as plainly written as it is.
The early church knew these things. Where did the church get lost?
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