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Post by uscgvet on Jun 11, 2021 12:13:33 GMT -6
I don't think it's secular and spiritual. Before the separation of Israel and Judah, before Abraham was given the sign of circumcision, the blessing to Abraham came from Melchizedek, king of Salem, both a priest and king. It is my understanding that the rulership and the priesthood are both Godly, not just the priesthood. The "separation" of the two really began to unfold in 1 Samuel 8:7. The kingship was of God, and the people rejected God as their ruler. They wanted a human King, so God's plan was to send Christ through the line of David to be both Priest and King in the order of Melchizedek (Psalm 110:4 & Hebrews 7:1). And as we see in Revelation, the 24 elders, the 4 creatures (which I believe are the church... a new creature [4 gospels]), the trib saints, and the 144k Jewish elect... will also become priests and kings to rule with Christ under that same order (Revelation 1:6 & Revelation 5:10). Both are meant to be together as one from the beginning. God binds them both together in Christ. Excellent point uscgvet , and with that you have put the final nail in the coffin. No one can argue against what you have said. I don't think that I have seen an argument so solid as the one you have presented here. The only thing that I see in error IMO is that the 144,000 are Jewish. Nevertheless, they are clearly as you have pointed out priests and kings that rule with Christ. In fact they are sealed to the Savior (Rev. 7:4-8) like the Savior is sealed to the Father IMO. Because, they have the Fathers name in their foreheads (Rev. 14:1). That is, they are one with Jesus as Jesus is one with the Father. And, this is one of my favorite doctrinal points, that the people of the world see Jesus when they see the 144,000. That is, the people of the world will never actually be honored to see the Savior himself but they see him by seeing his representatives (Rev. 1:7). Scripture is so beautiful and those who see the Savior are those that pierced him, and they see him via his 144,000 just as he sends them to hell. They are the clouds of war in that verse (v. 1:7) that links to Rev. 14:14. Thus, those who pierced the Savior via piercing his people (Rev. 13:7) see the Savior as his 144,000 destroy the beast and the beast's army (Rev. 19:20-21). It is a brutal destruction that they are so deserving of. All other people of the earth also see the Savior via the 144,000 when the final call for the repentant is given via the wrath of God. Because, even at that point Jesus will accept a repentant soul IMO. Yea, the Jewish may have been a little overboard, but they are from the 12 Tribes of Israel. IMHO, they could be descendants of the unbelieving Jews that were set aside by Grace that Paul talks about in Romans 10:21 thru Romans 11:10. Thus, real flesh and blood Jews being the 144k. Possibly...
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Post by boraddict on Jun 12, 2021 14:32:57 GMT -6
Perhaps the biggest question in my mind with regard to the Book of Revelation is why Dan was substituted with Manasses in the list of twelve tribes at Rev. 7:4-8. So look at the placement in four sets of three a follows: 1) Rev. 7:5, Judah 4, Reuben 1, Gad 72) Rev. 7:6, Aser 8, Nepthalim 6, Manasses replaces Dan 53) Rev. 7:7, Simeon 2, Levi 3, Issachar 94) Rev. 7:8, Zabulon 10, Joseph 11, Benjamin 12Next, please notice the following birth order in three sets of four. 1) The birth order via Leah from Gen. 29:31-352) The birth order via Bilhah (for Rachel) and Zilpah (for Leah) from Gen. 30:6-133) The birth order of Leah and then Rachel from Gen 30:18-24, 35:18
Interestingly, at Gen. 45:6 we see that Israel comes out of the famine after two years have passed and 5 years remain. Is this a type of our 7 year tribulation? And, they went to the land of Goshen (Gen. 45:10) and again perhaps this is a type?
Please notice the birth order again at Gen. 46:8-12 are the first four of Leah and in the same order as above. Then Issachar is listed that is the fifth child of Leah (Gen. 46:15), followed by Zebulun as sixth (Gen. 46:14-15). Then we have Gad (seven) and Asher (eight, Gen. 46:16-17) that are the sons of Zilpah who was given to Leah. So in total Leah is represented by eight sons listed above as 1-4, 9-10, 7-8 (Gen. 46:8-17).
Next we have the sons of Rachael (Gen. 46:19-22) that are Joseph (11 above) and Benjamin (12 above). Lastly we have the sons of Bilhah that was given to Rachel that are Dan (5 above), and Naphtali (6 above).
1) Rev. 7:5, Judah 4, Reuben 1, Gad 7
2) Rev. 7:6, Aser 8, Nepthalim 6, Manasses replaces Dan 5
3) Rev. 7:7, Simeon 2, Levi 3, Issachar 9
4) Rev. 7:8, Zabulon 10, Joseph 11, Benjamin 12
So in the above order we have four for Leah (4, 1, 7, 8) and then two for Rachel (6, 5) the second of which is Dan replaced by Manassas. Then we again have four for Leah (2, 3, 9, 10) and two for Rachel (11, 12). This reminds me of the chiasmus of Rev. 19:19 that is a, b, a, b, wherein the association is between the a's and the b's.
4, Leah 1, Leah 7, Leah via Zilpah 8, Leah via Zilpah 6, Rachel via Bilhah 5, Rachal via Bilhah substituted by the adopted son Manassas (Gen. 48:5-6 from Joseph) 12, Rachel (Benjamin) 11, Rachel (Joseph) 10, Leah after Ziplah 9, Leah after Zilpah 3, Leah 2, Leah
So in this case the association is between Manassas and Benjamin and I do not know what it means and how it relates to the topic of this thread; but it does, perhaps. I suppose that the only way to highlight this is to substitute Dan with Manassas. I mean, if Dan was placed there then it would be less noticeable. But since Manassas is there then it becomes very obvious. And so it is that the chiasmus focuses upon the tribes associated with Rachel. And as I have stated before, the one tribe left out is Ephraim because Dan is replaced by Manassas then what about Ephraim. I mean, the place of Dan in the order is correct but the tribe referenced is Manassas. Therefore, where is Ephraim referenced in the group of 12; because, that tribe is the only one left out.
But better than that is, like Dan being represented by Manassas, all the 12 represent Ephraim. And this means that all 12 represent the followers of Christ; these are Christians in the tribe of Ephraim representing the twelve tribes of Israel.
Please notice that Gen. 48:6 indicates that if Joseph had other sons then they would be called after the name of their brethren. Perhaps this is why Joseph is listed in the 12 above; to accommodate all his sons. Also, please notice in the chiasmus that Joseph is represented in Manassas, and then Benjamin, both sons Joseph and Benjamin that are the sons of Rachel in the center of the chiasmus.
At any rate, the fact that Dan is represented via Manassas and that Joseph represents his family seems to indicate that both Ephraim and Manassas, as well as other sons of Joseph, are represented by the listing of Joseph; and that Manassas does not actually represent Manassas but Dan. And this being the case then the substitution of Dan simply highlights that the focus of the listing is upon Rachel as shown in the chiasmus above. So what is it about Rachel that is so important? Is it that Rachel is weeping for her children (Matt. 2:18)? This of course is the killing of the children at the time of the birth of Christ; in Bethlehem, the place that Rachel was buried (Gen. 35:19). Is that what we are really talking about here in the substitution of Dan, that Rachel whom is weeping for her children is recompensed? And if that is the case, then it would seem that the 144,000 gather at Bethlehem for the return of the Savior. Since after all that is the place that Rachel was burried and the place that Jesus was born. So likewise that might be the place of the Savior's gathering of 144,000 saints before his return. Just a thought.
One last point that I would like to mention is that the nation of Israel came out of Egypt after 430 years (Ex. 12:40). Given the type and shadow relationship between Israel coming out of Egypt after 430 years and the people of Israel (Christians) settling in North America at about 1607 AD, then the coming out should be about 2037; according to this type and shadow relationship. If the coming out is two years after the tribulation begins, then the tribulation begins at approx. 2035; according to this type and shadow approximation.
nationalhumanitiescenter.org/pds/amerbegin/settlement/text1/text1read.htm
Post Script: Please notice that Judah and Benjamin are listed as the first and last tribes in the order, and these two tribes were the southern kingdom called Judah. Whereas, all the tribes between were the tribes of the northern kingdom called Ephraim. Prior to their separation the two kingdoms were one that was called Israel. After their separation only the northern kingdom was called Israel.
Rev. 7:4-8 appears to be referencing the 12 tribes as they were constituted before the separation of the two kingdoms. That being the case then only 12,000 are represented as Judah and not all 144,000. I mean, look at the separation of Judah and Benjamin; they could not be any further apart. No, this list is showing the twelve tribes not being mixed together. I am convinced that is why Judah was placed in the first position at Rev. 7:4; to show that Judah is clearly separated from Benjamin.
www.conformingtojesus.com/images/webpages/12_tribes_division_of_israel_map_1.png
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