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Post by socalexile on Aug 15, 2017 12:14:21 GMT -6
The Dragon.
By the first 5 verses of Revelation 12, the Sign of the Dragon must appear before the church is raptured. I think he's putting a lot on the line in his interpretation that the Sign is the church being born-again on that day; when the Dragon hasn't been found yet.
I'm not saying it won't be found. I'm saying is that there's a chance he's setting himself up for failure if God doesn't meet his timeline.
The bottom line is that the Sign is a fulfillment in of itself, but there's more added to this with that idea that can really bite him (and this site) in the rear. And the fact that the Sign is an event unto itself will be overlooked as the world, and those in the church who have dismissed this, point fingers and ridicule.
I'm just saying that caution, and a desire to wait and see what God's timeline is, should be the rule here. The fact is that if we wake up here on Sept 24th, the first two verses of Revelation 12:1-2 were still fulfilled.
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Post by yardstick on Aug 15, 2017 12:31:31 GMT -6
You have a valid point socal. I referred to what you bring up in your post, right here: unsealed.boards.net/thread/570/michael-svigel-rebukes-revelation-watcherswhen I said that we need to strictly adhere to the 9/23 sign only applying to Rev 12:1 (and potentially 2). It is also possible that John's attention was diverted to the second sign; and that both signs will be concurrent, not sequential. That is, the chronological reference above refers to the order that John saw them in, not the order that they actually appear chronologically. |
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Post by brad on Aug 15, 2017 13:06:20 GMT -6
Socalexile and yardstick, your points are well taken. If you take this just 1 step further, an argument could be made that the beast in Revelation 13 is possibly mid-Trib, and the sign of the Dragon could be there... What does not fit though is the pregnancy issue. I've never heard of a pregnancy lasting 3 and a half years. There are lots of theories out there on exactly when the due date is... from now, until late November... I wouldn't worry too much about the dragon... there are only 2 possibilities:
1- The entire "Great Sign" is just strange coincidence and nothing will happen at all....
2- Or, we might just have to keep our calendars open for a while, and trust God will reveal ALL... in HIS TIME!
We are going to find out soon enough!
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Post by kjs on Aug 15, 2017 13:35:14 GMT -6
On another thread -- I question -- where is the dragon -- as well.....
But going to a literal translation -- here is what the text reads
1 A spectacular sign appeared in the sky: There was a woman who was dressed in the sun, who had the moon under her feet and a crown of 12 stars on her head.
2 She was pregnant. She cried out from labor pains and the agony of giving birth.
3 Another sign appeared in the sky: a huge fiery red serpent with seven heads, ten horns, and seven crowns on its heads.
4 Its tail swept away one-third of the stars in the sky and threw them down to earth. The serpent stood in front of the woman who was going to give birth so that it could devour her child when it was born.
5 She gave birth to a son, a boy, who is to rule all the nations with an iron scepter. Her child was snatched away and taken to God and to his throne.
Please NOTICE there is only ONE timing element within the passage of those five verses.
Some translation claim verse 3 starts off with "AND THEN" but you look at the Greek it is simple "AND ANOTHER" -- in other words nothing suggests first one sign and then the next sign must occur.
Verse 3 simply says another sign occurred (maybe at same time,maybe later) -- then describes the dragon
Verse 4 says the dragons tail swept away 1/3 of the stars and threw them to earth -- no time is mention here -- maybe pre-birth, maybe post birth
Verse 4 finishes with the Serpent stood in front .... nothing about standing in front BEFORE sweeping the stars -- there is no timing element
Verse 5 simply starts off -- SHE GAVE BIRTH ..... followed by a description of what he will do -- then the boy child is caught away BEFORE he is devoured ....
The ONLY timing element is "stood in front of the woman who was going...." (and catching away before devour -- could count as timing element)
Notice it does NOT say the sweeping of the stars occurs happens BEFORE the birth.
Verse 4 is two complete sentences -- Sentence one is sweeping of stars by tail -- Sentence two is "stood in front" -- nothing linking them together time wise.
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Post by hillary on Aug 15, 2017 14:34:20 GMT -6
I've wondered this too. Has Unsealed or anyone in the community written about this? It might be good to acknowledge this and our position (by "our" I mean our collective & what you all shared above).
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Post by yardstick on Aug 15, 2017 14:53:25 GMT -6
Socalexile and yardstick, your points are well taken. If you take this just 1 step further, an argument could be made that the beast in Revelation 13 is possibly mid-Trib, and the sign of the Dragon could be there... What does not fit though is the pregnancy issue. I've never heard of a pregnancy lasting 3 and a half years. There are lots of theories out there on exactly when the due date is... from now, until late November... I wouldn't worry too much about the dragon... there are only 2 possibilities: 1- The entire "Great Sign" is just strange coincidence and nothing will happen at all.... 2- Or, we might just have to keep our calendars open for a while, and trust God will reveal ALL... in HIS TIME! We are going to find out soon enough! Well, we still have at least 7 days and maybe a few more after that to see the second confirming sign before 9/23. Alternatively, if Isa 66:7 is relevant, and since the 'labor' appears to start on 9/9, we may see the dragon sign between 8/21 and 9/9. |
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Post by yardstick on Aug 15, 2017 14:56:20 GMT -6
On another thread -- I question -- where is the dragon -- as well..... But going to a literal translation -- here is what the text reads 1 A spectacular sign appeared in the sky: There was a woman who was dressed in the sun, who had the moon under her feet and a crown of 12 stars on her head.
2 She was pregnant. She cried out from labor pains and the agony of giving birth.
3 Another sign appeared in the sky: a huge fiery red serpent with seven heads, ten horns, and seven crowns on its heads.
4 Its tail swept away one-third of the stars in the sky and threw them down to earth. The serpent stood in front of the woman who was going to give birth so that it could devour her child when it was born.
5 She gave birth to a son, a boy, who is to rule all the nations with an iron scepter. Her child was snatched away and taken to God and to his throne.
Please NOTICE there is only ONE timing element within the passage of those five verses. Some translation claim verse 3 starts off with "AND THEN" but you look at the Greek it is simple "AND ANOTHER" -- in other words nothing suggests first one sign and then the next sign must occur. Verse 3 simply says another sign occurred (maybe at same time,maybe later) -- then describes the dragon Verse 4 says the dragons tail swept away 1/3 of the stars and threw them to earth -- no time is mention here -- maybe pre-birth, maybe post birth Verse 4 finishes with the Serpent stood in front .... nothing about standing in front BEFORE sweeping the stars -- there is no timing element Verse 5 simply starts off -- SHE GAVE BIRTH ..... followed by a description of what he will do -- then the boy child is caught away BEFORE he is devoured .... The ONLY timing element is "stood in front of the woman who was going...." (and catching away before devour -- could count as timing element) Notice it does NOT say the sweeping of the stars occurs happens BEFORE the birth. Verse 4 is two complete sentences -- Sentence one is sweeping of stars by tail -- Sentence two is "stood in front" -- nothing linking them together time wise. Excellent analysis. reading something into the scripture that isn't there, is hard not to do! |
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Post by yardstick on Aug 15, 2017 14:57:36 GMT -6
I've wondered this too. Has Unsealed or anyone in the community written about this? It might be good to acknowledge this and our position (by "our" I mean our collective & what you all shared above). Yes. There are a number of blurbs written in several of the threads. Try using the search engine, for "Dragon" or "rev 12:3-4", and similar... |
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Post by hillary on Aug 15, 2017 15:01:32 GMT -6
I've wondered this too. Has Unsealed or anyone in the community written about this? It might be good to acknowledge this and our position (by "our" I mean our collective & what you all shared above). Yes. There are a number of blurbs written in several of the threads. Try using the search engine, for "Dragon" or "rev 12:3-4", and similar... I'm sorry; I meant like an official article somewhere. But that's great that it's here. SaveSave |
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Post by brad on Aug 15, 2017 15:09:30 GMT -6
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Post by Gary on Aug 15, 2017 15:29:24 GMT -6
I haven't spent much time on the dragon. I can't quite pin it down, but its seeming absence doesn't bother me very much.
Revelation 12:1-2 is called a "Great Sign" and I've definitely covered that in a number of articles. At this point I just see no way around it. I think those verses are fulfilled on 9/23 or 9/24. Even if the rapture doesn't happen that weekend I still have to stand by that being the Great Sign until someone offers up something more satisfactory that can stand up to all the scrutiny that this sign has weathered.
Revelation 12:3-4 is "another" sign - the text differentiates it from the Great Sign, so in my opinion, timing issues aside, they stand alone. My personal opinion at the moment places the order of events like this:
1. Revelation 12:5 based on Isaiah 66:7 (there are several clear connections between the two verses)
2. Revelation 12:1-2 (the Great Sign appears)
3. Revelation 12:3-4 follows as satan and his angels are cast to the earth (Watchmanjim might want to chime in on this as there is an interesting thing going on with σύρει in v. 4).
4. Revelation 12:6 fast forwards 3.5 years to when Israel flees for safety.
Revelation 12:7 starts back over again because we see satan and his angels going from Heaven to earth.
Revelation 12:10-12 are a key to the timing because there is a group in Heaven rejoicing who refer to their ἀδελφῶν (brothers) who have overcome the dragon by means of Christ's blood. These are Believers. Verse 12 restates the point - Believers are rejoicing in Heaven, but woe to those left on the earth because the dragon has been thrown down.
So my best guess is that the order of events is something like 1. Rapture, 2. Great Sign, 3. War in Heaven, 4. Satan and his angels cast out, 5. Satan pursues Israel during the first half of the 70th week (v. 13-16), 6. Israel flees for safety (v. 6, v. 14), 7. Realizing he can't reach the remnant of Israel, the dragon persecutes the Gentile Trib Saints for the last half of the 70th week (v. 17) hence Rev 7.
Look at verse 13 especially. It looks like the dragon is not standing before the woman until the male child is already born.
Also, Brad might have been the one to share this and it kind of resonated with me. Rev. 12:1-2 is clearly a literal sign in the heavens - sun, moon, and stars. Rev. 12:3-4, however, may not be. Consider that the sun and moon are not mentioned. That just leaves stars and stars are definitely mentioned in verses 3-4, but... these particular stars are cast to the earth (see Rev. 12:7-9), so that begs the question, are these stars supposed to indicate an actual alignment as in verses 1-2, or might they simply indicate angels as elsewhere in Revelation (e.g., Rev. 1:20)? In the Revelation 12 narrative, at some point we have to draw a distinction between astronomy and rapture/Tribulation events. I propose that verses 1-2 are astronomy, and 3-on are narrative.
Remember that Revelation speaks of both true and false σημεῖον (signs). Take a look at Rev. 13:14, 16:14, 19:20. Compare to 2 Thess. 2:9 where we learn that the man of lawlessness will appear on the world scene accompanied by all sorts of false signs.
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Post by mike on Aug 15, 2017 17:38:46 GMT -6
Something that comes to mind here. I am on my phone so I don't have a lot of resources and I'm going off (what's left of) my memory.
Why are confident the sign of the dragon is in the sky? Does it have be that John saw it in the stars? I think it's alluded to that it may not be in the sky in either Yardsticks or KJS but nonetheless. Could it be that John saw this in the "heavens" or spirit realm not the stars?
Just a thought, cuz the next scene is the Dragon getting thrown to earth, which would not be in the stars.
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Post by mike on Aug 15, 2017 17:56:12 GMT -6
Now that I'm a bit more focused reading it more thoroughly, what Gary said Lol!
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Post by socalexile on Aug 15, 2017 18:48:13 GMT -6
Socalexile and yardstick, your points are well taken. I f you take this just 1 step further, an argument could be made that the beast in Revelation 13 is possibly mid-Trib, and the sign of the Dragon could be there... What does not fit though is the pregnancy issue. I've never heard of a pregnancy lasting 3 and a half years. There are lots of theories out there on exactly when the due date is... from now, until late November... I wouldn't worry too much about the dragon... there are only 2 possibilities: 1- The entire "Great Sign" is just strange coincidence and nothing will happen at all.... 2- Or, we might just have to keep our calendars open for a while, and trust God will reveal ALL... in HIS TIME! We are going to find out soon enough! It isn't mid-trib because we still have the 1260 days and the "times, time and half a time" that the Dragon pursues the Woman, which adds up to 7 years total, after the Baby is snatched up. |
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Post by yardstick on Aug 15, 2017 22:54:53 GMT -6
I haven't spent much time on the dragon. I can't quite pin it down, but its seeming absence doesn't bother me very much. Revelation 12:1-2 is called a "Great Sign" and I've definitely covered that in a number of articles. At this point I just see no way around it. I think those verses are fulfilled on 9/23 or 9/24. Even if the rapture doesn't happen that weekend I still have to stand by that being the Great Sign until someone offers up something more satisfactory that can stand up to all the scrutiny that this sign has weathered. Revelation 12:3-4 is "another" sign - the text differentiates it from the Great Sign, so in my opinion, timing issues aside, they stand alone. My personal opinion at the moment places the order of events like this: 1. Revelation 12:5 based on Isaiah 66:7 (there are several clear connections between the two verses) 2. Revelation 12:1-2 (the Great Sign appears) 3. Revelation 12:3-4 follows as satan and his angels are cast to the earth (Watchmanjim might want to chime in on this as there is an interesting thing going on with σύρει in v. 4). 4. Revelation 12:6 fast forwards 3.5 years to when Israel flees for safety. Revelation 12:7 starts back over again because we see satan and his angels going from Heaven to earth. Revelation 12:10-12 are a key to the timing because there is a group in Heaven rejoicing who refer to their ἀδελφῶν (brothers) who have overcome the dragon by means of Christ's blood. These are Believers. Verse 12 restates the point - Believers are rejoicing in Heaven, but woe to those left on the earth because the dragon has been thrown down. So my best guess is that the order of events is something like 1. Rapture, 2. Great Sign, 3. War in Heaven, 4. Satan and his angels cast out, 5. Satan pursues Israel during the first half of the 70th week (v. 13-16), 6. Israel flees for safety (v. 6, v. 14), 7. Realizing he can't reach the remnant of Israel, the dragon persecutes the Gentile Trib Saints for the last half of the 70th week (v. 17) hence Rev 7. Look at verse 13 especially. It looks like the dragon is not standing before the woman until the male child is already born. Also, Brad might have been the one to share this and it kind of resonated with me. Rev. 12:1-2 is clearly a literal sign in the heavens - sun, moon, and stars. Rev. 12:3-4, however, may not be. Consider that the sun and moon are not mentioned. That just leaves stars and stars are definitely mentioned in verses 3-4, but... these particular stars are cast to the earth (see Rev. 12:7-9), so that begs the question, are these stars supposed to indicate an actual alignment as in verses 1-2, or might they simply indicate angels as elsewhere in Revelation (e.g., Rev. 1:20)? In the Revelation 12 narrative, at some point we have to draw a distinction between astronomy and rapture/Tribulation events. I propose that verses 1-2 are astronomy, and 3-on are narrative. Remember that Revelation speaks of both true and false σημεῖον (signs). Take a look at Rev. 13:14, 16:14, 19:20. Compare to 2 Thess. 2:9 where we learn that the man of lawlessness will appear on the world scene accompanied by all sorts of false signs. Gary, you probably are already aware of this, but the Draconids meteor shower is Oct 7-9. iirc, Zedek is 'birthed' around October 15... |
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