bella
New Member
Posts: 32
|
Post by bella on Sept 6, 2017 11:49:11 GMT -6
I just wanted to say that I started to listen to a video yesterday from someone on you tube that had been recommended. They were reading from the Book of Enoch in the video I saw. I am sticking to the BIble myself.
|
|
|
Post by Natalie on Sept 6, 2017 14:41:39 GMT -6
I think I saw the same video. I had to turn it off. I know some think at least part of the book of Enoch is inspired, but to me it just doesn't sit right. It's like it's close, but not quite there.
|
|
|
Post by watchmanjim on Sept 6, 2017 20:59:48 GMT -6
We've talked about the book of Enoch sometimes on here. I've said before and I'll say again--there's plenty for us to learn from the 66 books of the Bible without going to any other books. Stick with what God makes you comfortable with. I've read Enoch, and had mixed thoughts about it, but we have what we need in the 66 books.
|
|
|
Post by mike on Sept 7, 2017 7:52:41 GMT -6
We have everything we need to base our faith on contained in the 66 books of our bible. However, we can glean information from other resources and should absolutely use caution when doing so. In my earlier walk and younger years I thought "If its not in the bible it isnt true". Those thoughts often followed things regarding ancient history or lure. I mean c'mon where do the ancient myths come from? Hercules, Zues, One eyed monsters, Giants, chimera, minotaur, dragons, mermaids and on and on. I chalked these up to imaginary creatures or conjured dreams. Fast forward 15-20 years and my insight (not necessarily belief) has changed.
Again i'm not going to suggest we put faith in extra biblical documents, but some of them do have evidence for us to consider. Genesis 6:4 is the perfect example of this and the book of Enoch provides some insight into the text.
1 When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose. 3 Then the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not abide in a man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.” 4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.
While the bible mentions this it does not provide much detail beyond it. We see a few mentions of the outcome of this (DNA tampering) in subsequent books. Notable examples are Joshua & Caleb spying out the land in Numbers 13:33 and David vs. Goliath. There are also quotes in 1 Peter and Jude, and Matt 8:29 "alludes" to the fallen angels when they ask Jesus about being punished before their appointed time. In addition there have been skeletal remains of giants ranging from 9' to 35' found throughout the world. When you consider evidence even further and think about the possibility of how the ancients built megalithic structures, we should consider information like Enoch 1 to help fill in gaps.
Again dont build doctrine on this as there is enough in the 66 books. We know "as in the days of Noah so shall it be in the days of the coming of son of man..." and we have enough in the bible to tell us that something happened in those days which was likely DNA tampering without Enoch but it does help us with the picture a bit more clearly.
One other thought about this whole theory on Enoch and fallen angels producing offspring. While its debated that they actually had the ability to reproduce or if they 'possessed' men to reproduce is not the point i'm about to (try) to make. The devil and his minions hate us right. Why do they hate us? Because we are made in the image of God. We have communion with God. We pray to God. Pride and jealousy was their sin. They (satan) thought he was better than us and when he realized he wouldnt have the same privilege he fell. Angels dont pray. They go before his face but we never see them praying.
|
|
bella
New Member
Posts: 32
|
Post by bella on Sept 7, 2017 8:18:49 GMT -6
We have everything we need to base our faith on contained in the 66 books of our bible. However, we can glean information from other resources and should absolutely use caution when doing so. In my earlier walk and younger years I thought "If its not in the bible it isnt true". Those thoughts often followed things regarding ancient history or lure. I mean c'mon where do the ancient myths come from? Hercules, Zues, One eyed monsters, Giants, chimera, minotaur, dragons, mermaids and on and on. I chalked these up to imaginary creatures or conjured dreams. Fast forward 15-20 years and my insight (not necessarily belief) has changed. Again i'm not going to suggest we put faith in extra biblical documents, but some of them do have evidence for us to consider. Genesis 6:4 is the perfect example of this and the book of Enoch provides some insight into the text. 1 When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose. 3 Then the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not abide in a man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.” 4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown. While the bible mentions this it does not provide much detail beyond it. We see a few mentions of the outcome of this (DNA tampering) in subsequent books. Notable examples are Joshua & Caleb spying out the land in Numbers 13:33 and David vs. Goliath. There are also quotes in 1 Peter and Jude, and Matt 8:29 "alludes" to the fallen angels when they ask Jesus about being punished before their appointed time. In addition there have been skeletal remains of giants ranging from 9' to 35' found throughout the world. When you consider evidence even further and think about the possibility of how the ancients built megalithic structures, we should consider information like Enoch 1 to help fill in gaps. Again dont build doctrine on this as there is enough in the 66 books. We know "as in the days of Noah so shall it be in the days of the coming of son of man..." and we have enough in the bible to tell us that something happened in those days which was likely DNA tampering without Enoch but it does help us with the picture a bit more clearly. One other thought about this whole theory on Enoch and fallen angels producing offspring. While its debated that they actually had the ability to reproduce or if they 'possessed' men to reproduce is not the point i'm about to (try) to make. The devil and his minions hate us right. Why do they hate us? Because we are made in the image of God. We have communion with God. We pray to God. Pride and jealousy was their sin. They (satan) thought he was better than us and when he realized he wouldnt have the same privilege he fell. Angels dont pray. They go before his face but we never see them praying. I don't disagree with looking at something for reference, if you pray for discernment in it. But they weren't using this book as research, they were reading it aloud as if it was Biblical. Think of the unbelievers watching this video that will be mislead. Can you imagine any pastor of a Christian church doing this, and what the outcome would be? It discredits their ministry.
|
|
|
Post by mike on Sept 7, 2017 9:13:27 GMT -6
I can understand that...I have seen a couple ministers do this. There was a video by Steve Ciocolanti (sp?) where he quoted Jasher throughout the message that I had seen recently. I'm not certain he was using it beyond that of research or to prove a point, but it can be misleading or confusing (or both) to those who do not have discernment.
|
|
bella
New Member
Posts: 32
|
Post by bella on Sept 7, 2017 9:19:36 GMT -6
I can understand that...I have seen a couple ministers do this. There was a video by Steve Ciocolanti (sp?) where he quoted Jasher throughout the message that I had seen recently. I'm not certain he was using it beyond that of research or to prove a point, but it can be misleading or confusing (or both) to those who do not have discernment. Ugh, I didn't know he did it too. That disappoints me.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2017 9:55:46 GMT -6
I have a slightly different take on these types of things. Not that anyone asked me, but this is a discussion forum, so...
When young I did not fully appreciate the concept of God's sovereignty. Around 18 years ago, I was awakened to a God that was distinctly different than the Baptist God I had grown up with. He is the same, but my understanding of him went through some massive changes. One of those changes was in the concept of how he speaks to his people. By which I mean all people. His voice is everywhere and he is constantly speaking. I no longer believe that our conversation with God is linear or even turn-based. Although, when I reveal to others things that God and I have talked about I do break it down into a turn based, linear conversation, that is not the way it actually occurs in my walk.
I am constantly hearing him and he is constantly speaking. When this fails, it is because of distractions in my life that prevent me from "being aware" of his voice.
Ok, that said. How does this relate to the Book of Enoch, or Jubilees, or Jasher, etc. Frankly, I see them as no different than Moby Dick, A Tale of Two Cities, or The Yellow Pages. God speaks through it all. He also speaks through the slight breeze on my cheek, the flutter of the hummingbird, the crack of thunder, the babbling of the brook, and the smile on my wife’s face. He speaks through the events of the day, the plots and details of films, and every little facet of our life.
The questions for me anymore, isn't - Is this the word of God? The question is...What is God saying?
I believe this view requires an absolute faith that God is in control of every detail of every thing. I don't blame satan for the death and destruction in this world, because to do so would be to essentially claim that God can not control satan. I accept that the God I serve does these things. Sure, it is the result of the sin nature of man, but God did create us exactly as we are and then place us in a garden and allow us to be tempted - knowing what the result would be.
Once again, this might seem like a cold attitude toward God and I know that many may feel otherwise, but for me, this makes everything true. I simply could not worship a God that was incapable of actually controlling the universe he created. But the result of this understanding means that I give him credit for everything: The good, the bad, and the ugly. And, I also realize that it is perfectly in accordance with his plan.
With that understanding also comes the utter faith in his ability to bring me home. This allows me to completely rest in him. And I shutter to consider the idea of trusting anyone else for the job - including myself.
Ok, so back to the topic at hand. Many people will find the ancient books useful to "fill in the holes" of scripture. And they start off by using those resources to add color to their sermons or books. But over time, they can tend to start trusting those sources equally to scripture. Others are better able to maintain a balance between these sources of "God's word."
My response is this - know God. Then his Word becomes obvious. Seek God, not secrets. Yearn for him, not knowledge.
I realize I have said some difficult things in this post, please forgive me if I have offended and allow me a chance to explain better if this does not sit well with you.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2017 10:11:03 GMT -6
If you think about it, each of us reads a bible that was translated by men - we are not reading the original letters written by the apostles. In so doing, we trust the Lord to protect and keep his Word. We also look at history books to better understand events around the people of scripture. We look at maps to understand where things happened. We listen to the news and weather reports to talk about hurricanes. We look at fire maps and websites to determine where fires are around the world. We are constantly using other sources to determine truth.
I believe this is expected of us. But the history books of old are like ones in question in this thread. They should be used just as we use all the other sources I just mentioned. Test, test, test and know God so we recognize his voice.
Having said all this, I have all but ignored these ancient books. Which might seem odd based on everything I just said, but you can infer, based on what I said, what my general opinion about them is. And, I also started watching the video referenced in the first post, and I also did not finish the video.
|
|
|
Post by mike on Sept 7, 2017 10:38:29 GMT -6
I can understand that...I have seen a couple ministers do this. There was a video by Steve Ciocolanti (sp?) where he quoted Jasher throughout the message that I had seen recently. I'm not certain he was using it beyond that of research or to prove a point, but it can be misleading or confusing (or both) to those who do not have discernment. Ugh, I didn't know he did it too. That disappoints me. Bella Its this one. I watched when it first posted so I may be misquoting. Plz watch if you have time and see if he uses this as supporting evidence to what was going on during Lots time or if he leans more towards this is fact. Mike
|
|
|
Post by mike on Sept 7, 2017 10:56:23 GMT -6
If you think about it, each of us reads a bible that was translated by men - we are not reading the original letters written by the apostles. In so doing, we trust the Lord to protect and keep his Word. We also look at history books to better understand events around the people of scripture. We look at maps to understand where things happened. We listen to the news and weather reports to talk about hurricanes. We look at fire maps and websites to determine where fires are around the world. We are constantly using other sources to determine truth. I believe this is expected of us. But the history books of old are like ones in question in this thread. They should be used just as we use all the other sources I just mentioned. Test, test, test and know God so we recognize his voice. Having said all this, I have all but ignored these ancient books. Which might seem odd based on everything I just said, but you can infer, based on what I said, what my general opinion about them is. And, I also started watching the video referenced in the first post, and I also did not finish the video. SK - I do agree with you on this, that our God is sovereign. He is absolutely in control of all things and nothing that is done happens without Him orchestrating and ordaining it from the beginning. All the stupid things I've done in my life and even today, He knew about and was not caught off guard. Harvey, Irma, Jose and so on all part of His plan. That being said even though I desire to know Him more, and dont need extra biblical texts to know who He is or His character, there are those who dont quite feel the way we do. They are apart from God and some perhaps many require or demand answers to questions that if I have opportunity to answer those questions with the knowledge God has made available, I want to use that. Here's an example - I met a person at my daughters school about 2-3 yrs ago. He said to me "hey you go to the same gym"...long story short, he is a good friend now. Unfortunately a good but lost friend. One day not too long ago he mentioned a show that he loved to watch called "Ancient Aliens" and how he believed aliens built all of the ancient structures. Well this didnt sit well with me, so I told him I would check it out (rather than fly off the handle telling him he was crazy like i normally would ). So i began to investigate and came to the Nephilim. I studied and examined this quite a bit and now rather than simply saying to him "Look to God rather aliens" I can provide support why I would say "look to God". As always your thoughts help sharpen me, thank you
|
|
bella
New Member
Posts: 32
|
Post by bella on Sept 7, 2017 10:58:13 GMT -6
I have a slightly different take on these types of things. Not that anyone asked me, but this is a discussion forum, so... When young I did not fully appreciate the concept of God's sovereignty. Around 18 years ago, I was awakened to a God that was distinctly different than the Baptist God I had grown up with. He is the same, but my understanding of him went through some massive changes. One of those changes was in the concept of how he speaks to his people. By which I mean all people. His voice is everywhere and he is constantly speaking. I no longer believe that our conversation with God is linear or even turn-based. Although, when I reveal to others things that God and I have talked about I do break it down into a turn based, linear conversation, that is not the way it actually occurs in my walk. I am constantly hearing him and he is constantly speaking. When this fails, it is because of distractions in my life that prevent me from "being aware" of his voice. Ok, that said. How does this relate to the Book of Enoch, or Jubilees, or Jasher, etc. Frankly, I see them as no different than Moby Dick, A Tale of Two Cities, or The Yellow Pages. God speaks through it all. He also speaks through the slight breeze on my cheek, the flutter of the hummingbird, the crack of thunder, the babbling of the brook, and the smile on my wife’s face. He speaks through the events of the day, the plots and details of films, and every little facet of our life. The questions for me anymore, isn't - Is this the word of God? The question is...What is God saying? I believe this view requires an absolute faith that God is in control of every detail of every thing. I don't blame satan for the death and destruction in this world, because to do so would be to essentially claim that God can not control satan. I accept that the God I serve does these things. Sure, it is the result of the sin nature of man, but God did create us exactly as we are and then place us in a garden and allow us to be tempted - knowing what the result would be. Once again, this might seem like a cold attitude toward God and I know that many may feel otherwise, but for me, this makes everything true. I simply could not worship a God that was incapable of actually controlling the universe he created. But the result of this understanding means that I give him credit for everything: The good, the bad, and the ugly. And, I also realize that it is perfectly in accordance with his plan. With that understanding also comes the utter faith in his ability to bring me home. This allows me to completely rest in him. And I shutter to consider the idea of trusting anyone else for the job - including myself. Ok, so back to the topic at hand. Many people will find the ancient books useful to "fill in the holes" of scripture. And they start off by using those resources to add color to their sermons or books. But over time, they can tend to start trusting those sources equally to scripture. Others are better able to maintain a balance between these sources of "God's word." My response is this - know God. Then his Word becomes obvious. Seek God, not secrets. Yearn for him, not knowledge. I realize I have said some difficult things in this post, please forgive me if I have offended and allow me a chance to explain better if this does not sit well with you. I totally agree that God speaks through many things. However, would he speak through a book that was rejected for inclusion in the inspired inerrant word of God? I think that would be confusing, and he is not a God of confusion.
|
|
|
Post by whatif on Sept 7, 2017 11:21:50 GMT -6
|
|
bella
New Member
Posts: 32
|
Post by bella on Sept 7, 2017 11:25:15 GMT -6
One other thing I thought about was that so far 3 people have said they turned that video off without finishing it. That is the Holy Spirit speaking right there.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2017 11:25:43 GMT -6
mike , I see your point and agree. This is where most would disagree with me, I would say in this case that God spoke to your friend through Ancient Aliens. The message he spoke did not necessarily conform to our idea of history, but it got your friend considering origins and thus opened a door for you. Then, in your own research of Nephilim, etc. God revealed other truths that you could use to share with your friend. If you had shut off the idea of studying these things due to the fact that your study required you to look outside of scripture, you would have prevented God's Word from reaching your friend - at least in that way. Often, we constrain the Word of God to match our "sunday school" understanding. But God's word can shock us and be completely unexpected at times. In my own conceit, it took me a long time to understand this. I would compare what I "heard" with what I "knew" (mental understanding). I would then often claim the source was deceiving, or evil, or at best, wrong. Eventually, I came to understand that I need to compare what I "hear" to who I know. This can make all the difference. Obviously, unbelievers have trouble in this area, they simply cannot recognize His voice and so they have no way of denying or accepting any word other than their own personal experience. I will say, that one of the great sadnesses in the church is that same inability to recognize His voice. This carries us on all whims of doctrine and prevents our worship of the "true" God. But I also realize that God knows and understands this and has a plan to set it straight! Anyway - that is a long way to say I agree with you. But yes, Mike, we are good sharpening partners!
|
|