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Post by disciple4life on Feb 27, 2020 19:58:45 GMT -6
rt said
"Hello disciple4life , It wasn't anything you said that led me to post as I did.
Would you say then that Jesus did not fulfill the feast of atonement? To me at least, that it clearly not the case, because according to scripture He most certainly did."
Hello rt, Just to answer your question, whether I believe Jesus fulfilled Day of Atonement? I would say no, and while scripture says that he atoned for our sins, it does not say he fulfilled this feast.
I don't want to belabor the point, or argue for the sake of arguinig.  Just two points that I think are food for thought for everyone on this thread.
1. If you get a wedding invitation,  for a specific couple at a specific place and specific time, Day, month and year and you show up one day early, or one day late, were you on time?? Every reasonable person would have to say "No".
Also, we may disagree on the significance of the feasts or how they will play out, and their connection, or no connection to the Second Advent, [rapture, tribulation and second coming] but I'm 100% certain, that we all agree that the Bible does not contradict itself.
There are times it appears to, but this is due to a lack of understanding of the culture, or a lack of Jewish worldview, or some variations in translations, but the disconnect is in our imperfect minds.
This point is to show how Christ did indeed fulfill the First Feasts in perfect order and precision.
2. We know from scripture that Passover was one of the three pilgrimage feasts, when Jews from all the surrounding countries and regions had to come to Jerusalem. We know from History, Josephus, and other sources that the number of Jews in Jerusalem was so many at Passover, that with all the priests working, it was physically impossible to sacrifice all the lambs in one day.
Furthermore, there is extra-biblical sources that confirm that in the time of Christ, there were at least two calendars in use by Jews, [This is not even counting the Roman calendar] There was the Judean calendar, and the Samaritan calendar, and the Essene Calendar, and it mostly dealt with the differences in the sightings of the New Moon, which set the Sabbaths for the entire year, and this is important, because it means one day difference in the feasts.
Passover was set for a specific day on the Calendar, Nisan 14th, and Feast of Unleavened Bread was set for a specific day on the calendar - Nisan 15th, but First Fruits was NOT set for a specific day on the calendar, but tied with the weekly Sabbath after the High Sabbath of Feast of Unleavened Bread.
Three Gospels record explicitly that Christ ate the Passover meal with his disciples. There is nothing in scripture to support the notion that this was not a full Seder meal, with roasted lamb and bitter herbs, and wine, along with unleavened bread.
Scripture also is explicitly clear that Christ was crucified on Passover proper, which was the Preparation of Feast of Unleavened Bread. [*The Catholic disdain for and ignorance of Jewish Sabbaths, caused this huge error and the misnomer of a Friday crucifixion, because they didn't understand that in Hebrew- Sabbath is Shabbat and it is the same word for weekly Sabbath and Feasts. Shabbat. Christ was on the cross and -said "My God why have you forsaken me" at the 9th hour [3 pm] at the same time the lambs were slaughtered in the temple, literally "between the evenings" 3-5 pm.
So there are multiple scenarios that work, and resolve any supposed contradiction. One being that Jesus was Crucified on Nisan 14th in the afternoon, On the cross from 9am to 3 pm, [Wednesday afternoon] just before the High Sabbath of Feast of Unleavened Bread.. a. Since there were 12 apostles, plus Jesus, they bought a lamb and slaughtered it early - Christ knowing he had to die on Passover. b. They did not have a full Seder supper, with the lamb, because Christ was the Passover lamb, to be crucified the next day - so the Last supper was bread and wine -- speculation and very weak argument and/or c. They celebrated the official Passover on one Jewish calendar in use, with the lambs being slaughtered in the temple that afternoon, because Christ said to prepare the Passover meal, and then on the next day, [Wednesday,] Christ was crucified on Passover of the other Jewish calendar, and thus he perfectly fulfilled Passover.
According to Jewish tradition, "the twilight /evening belongs to the Sabbath" So Christ fulfilled Passover on Passover, was buried at twilight, just before sunset, right at the start of Feast of Unleavened Bread, and was the perfect lamb, without spot or blemish, fulfilling Feast of Unleavened bread, and fulfilled the sign of Jonah, was in the tomb 3 days and 3 nights, Wed night/Thursday Day = 1, Thursday evening/Friday day = Day 2, Friday night, Saturday day = Day 3, and was already raised on the first day of the week, - fulfilling First fruits, and He was the Firstfruits of the Resurrection.
Maranatha,
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Post by rt on Feb 29, 2020 7:19:38 GMT -6
disciple4life , Thanks for the info. You clearly have done your research. I realize there were different calendars, there were also different practices, the Sadducees adhered to a more scriptural interpretation, while the Pharisees adhered more to tradition. Jesus as we know adhered to a scriptural interpretation of the law. I would submit that if a feast was to be fulfilled by Christ, that it would be fulfilled according to the prerequisites of the word of God and not the traditions of the Jews at the time. Though I could be wrong about that, let others be the judge. God Bless
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Post by disciple4life on Sept 5, 2020 9:35:42 GMT -6
hillary , MissusMack08 , disciple4life , andrew , yardstick , nana , Hello dear friends, my fellow watchman family, This was posted by nana , and I just had to share it here. *** The content /information of the video is 5 stars. It's mind-numbing. He brilliantly connects all the dots, and makes it so clear, - it's odd, that people could not see it. It's pretty concise - about 25 minutes. His props are distracting but the content is fantastic. Disciple4life
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andrew
Layman
Still here...till the end.
Posts: 98 
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Post by andrew on Sept 7, 2020 11:43:14 GMT -6
"I think he tries too hard..." I think he would have to try harder to calm down. It's good, though. God likes people who are crazy enough to believe Him. I have had normal people look at me like I was crazy many, many times, only to later find them telling other people the same thing after they realized it was correct. It did not please them to receive the truth until it was popular. People pleasing is the preferred sin of the modern age. Thank God that age is ending. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2020 12:33:03 GMT -6
Guys, please make sure there isn't anything insulting in our posts about other Believers.
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Post by disciple4life on Sept 8, 2020 13:10:27 GMT -6
Yes, boymaker, I totally agree. I tried to make clear that I think the information is excellent and I share his passion. I'm very sorry if anyone got the impression that i implied that he is a false teacher. He's one of a few who i think has most things right. In fact I commented on his you-Tube how much I appreciated it and told him how I have shared his video with family, friends and an end times forum. He liked the comment and replied back w helpful information. As an Otter I often don't articulate things right on the first take. My only point was that the props and mannequins are distracting and make it much harder for people to take his message seriously. Thank you for pointing this out, boymaker. I edited an earlier post and reworded some things and took out some things that may have seemed disparaging. But that was never my intention. I've used the quote several times from pastor Steve Cioccolanti- "We stand on the shoulders of many Watchman and Bible scholars before us. None of them had every thing right- now do we, but it doesn't make him or her a false teacher. We should glean all we can from them." |
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Post by disciple4life on Sept 9, 2020 18:55:33 GMT -6
disciple4life , rt , andrew , boymaker , bernie , nana , sog , mike @reepicheep , boraddict Natalie , Beloved , @gary, yardstick , kjs , stormyknight , inaweofhim , [Great catch EnochWalked. I don't know if he's actually a member here or just in the shoutbox, but he posted it.] Guys, gals- my dear fellow watchmen. This is a game-changer!!  Two ground-breaking, revolutionary points that I've never heard or seen anywhere. He explains in the second half how this New Information - works with ALL 3 trib/ rapture time table scenarios. Pre-trib, Post trib and Pre-wrath. This is beyond phenomenal. 1st ground-breaking information is at #4th Point about 6:00 min mark, and the second ground-breaking truth is at the #6 point. This clears up a bunch of mysteries/ discussions, that are topics of multiple threads. In Tennessee, we say, "If this doesn't light your fire, your wood's wet" Disciple4life
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Post by rt on Sept 23, 2020 11:45:55 GMT -6
disciple4life , Biblically the new year began after the feast of Tabernacles. Thus the "last Trumpet" of the year would fall on the last day of the feast of Tabernacles. Exodus 34:22 22 “And you shall celebrate the Feast of Weeks, that is, the first fruits of the wheat harvest, and the Feast of Ingathering at the turn of the year.
When the feasts are listed in the Old Testament together as the three yearly feasts that required offerings in Jerusalem, the feast of Tabernacles (AKA Booths, Sukkot, Ingathering) is always listed last. The words "Rosh Hashannah" or "head of the year" do not appear in scripture. The day was only ever known in scripture as Yom Taruah or a day of shouting and blasting. It wasn't until the Mishna was compiled in 200 AD that the phrase "Rosh Hashana" shows up. The Mishna is a collection of Jewish oral tradition. Not necessarily based on scripture. The question is whether or not the feasts of trumpets will be when the rapture occurs. It could, but it isn't based on the idea that the last trump is blown on that day. In fact since it's the start of the new year I would contend that it's the first trump not the last. I think believers have been looking through the lens of Jewish tradition and the Mishna to interpret prophecy. Is that how God will fulfill it? I guess He could, perhaps as a witness to the Jews. But I think it more likely that He would fulfill it through the lens of scripture. Jesus is the Trumpet, He already fulfilled this feast. It is a day of rememberance. The nation of Israel was to sound the trumpets so that they would be remembered before God. Jesus stands before God as our trumpet of rememberance. A reminder to God that we belong to Christ. Doesn't John describe Him as speaking with the voice of a Trumpet? And both passages that talk about the rapture indicate that Jesus Himself sounds the trumpet. He is the first and the last, alpha and Omega, He is the first trumpet and the last trumpet. Personally I believe the feast of Ingathering, might be a better fit. Though I wouldn't be dogmatic on that point.
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Post by disciple4life on Sept 23, 2020 19:27:49 GMT -6
Hello my dear fellow watchmen. rt, andrew, boymaker, boraddict, mike, Natalie, bruce, nana, others. This is a very good video. This guy is a Jewish follower of Yeshua. He states very explicitly -and repeatedly in other videos that Salvation is in nothing other than the blood of Yeshua/Jesus. He also has as the main theme or verse on his background on his wall - the Great Commission. He explains very well, that using a certain name whether Jesus, or Yeshua, or some other translation doesn't save you- and this was refreshing -as some sects make a big deal about this, much like the KJV only crowd. He said that the Bible is every thing from Genesis to Revelation, and in another video he explains the differences between Messianic Judaism, Christianity, Hebraic Roots and Judaism - he said "What most people know as western Christianity has been diluted from what Yeshua /Jesus taught." Boy, isn't that ever the truth. ;-) How Yom Teruah became Rosh Hoshanah. rt - I agree with most of your post. A couple small points i disagree on. As an Otter/expressive - I desire to have warm and open dialogue where we share ideas and learn from each other. I didn't know that the Mishnah was written in 200 AD.-- Thanks for that nugget. Here are some things I think we can say are facts - what we know from scripture, and or confirmed by multiple secular and historical sources, but shed a lot of light on the discussion- and also to the issue of feasts - as God's calendar. [In other words, - it's not my opinion, or simply the interpretation of some pastor or you-tube dude.] - The Term Rosh Hoshanah literaly means 'Head of the Year' roughly equivalent to New Year.
- The term Rosh Chodesh is in scripture, and is literally head of the Month - and was celebrated every month.
- The Term Rosh Hoshanah is not in scripture anywhere. The names of the Jewish months were from the Babylonians - when the Jews were in captivity.
- The Babylonians had a new year - which happened to fall on 1st of Tishri, and so the rabbis adopted this new year and gave it a Hebrew name.
- In the scripture- the months did not have names, but were 1st month, 2nd month, 3rd month, 4th month, etc.
- The first month as instituted by God 'what we know as Nisan] - called the 1st month, but is the month of Passover, Unleavened Bread and Firstfruits.
- Yom Teruah is the Hebrew name for Feast of Trumpets, and literally is translated 'Day of Shouting or Day of Blasting' **I think this is interesting, and also very significant in that it perfectly mirrors the words of Christ that the Groom came with a Shout.
- Trumpets are used in this feast - and it was a Sabbath- a day of rest, and was a feast of remembering -when the law was given at Sinai. ** Also very interesting also, in that we have a rapture picture in the Sinai story. There was the Trumpet blast of God, clouds and smoke covered the mountain. Moses went up into the clouds.
- There were many passages that talk about trumpets and in the OT, some passages specifically mention silver trumpets, and others the shofar - interesting that in the feast of weeks - Shofars - NOT silver trumpets were used. In Feast of Trumpets also, Shofars, -- NOT Silver trumpets - are used.
- Trumpets were used as a signal - call to battle, sacred assembly, assemble the people, move camp, instrument of worship, and wake-up call.
- The First Trumpet was Feast of Weeks- This was the giving of the Law at Mt Sinai - which foreshadowed Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit was given, and the church was born.
- The Great Trump is Day of Atonement, but normally there are not trumpets used at Yom Kippur [Day of atonement] It was only at Jubilee Year - which some say was every 50 years, others say 49 years.
- Feast of Trumpets, or Yom Teruah [Day of Shouting] is the only feast that has multiple types of blasts, with specific meaning.
- Originally, in the Torah [First five books of the Bible/ Pentateuch] Yom Teruah was only listed as one day. 1st day of Seventh month - [what we know as Tishri] It was in the diaspora, when Jews were scattered abroad, and several years before Google and Instagram - that Jews in farther regions could not know the sighting of the New Moon, by two witnesses in Jerusalem and sometimes it was cloudy and rainy, and the new moon was not sighted at all on the first day. So it became a two day feast - known as "the very long day".
- The term "from the east to the west" which Christ used in the context of his Second Advent - was a Jewish idiom which came from the signal fires that were on the hill-tops, lit "from the East to the West" when the new moon was sighted. This goes back thousands of years, and is confirmed in the Talmud.
Jesus is never referred to as a trumpet, or the trumpet.
rt said "The question is whether or not the feasts of trumpets will be when the rapture occurs. It could, but it isn't based on the idea that the last trump is blown on that day. In fact since it's the start of the new year I would contend that it's the first trump not the last. " I must offer this disclaimer - I'm learning so so much from you all, - I'm listening to Natalie and mike , and others, trying to be open to new information that could allow me/ us to make a new decision. I'm open to the possibility that the Harpazo happens at one of the Fall Feasts. But I'm 110% convinced that it's a Feast day, and that the first four are done- fulfilled, and now we are in the gap between Spring and Fall- age of the Gentiles- So that narrows it down to 3. I think that it is definitely based on the idea that The Last Trump is in fact a phrase that explicitly points to Feast of Trumpets and no other feast- but i think that it's only one of at least a dozen very compelling clues from Paul, Christ, John, and thousands of years of Jewish culture - which God divinely guided - to provoke them to jealousy - to literally use their own culture and traditions and feasts to shock them out of their sleep. When the new moon was sighted by 2 witnesses in Jerusalem, the trumpeters blasted 99 alternating long and short, staccato blasts of the shofar. Then, there was the 'Last Trumpet" - it even has a special name - Tekia Gadola - the 100th blast was as loud and as long as the trumpeter had breath. One point you made, rt , which i agree totally - is your point about God's voice being like a Trumpet.  Paul said explicitly that the Lord Himself, will descend with a shout - and this perfectly mirrors the parable of the rapture - 5 wise bridesmaids, and the groom came with a shout. Another point is that Jews everywhere, for centuries have understood that the great resurrection happens on Yom Teruah, and it is also written in the Talmud, that the world was created on 1st of Tishri. [Very interesting is that the Hebrew letters for "In the Beginning" - when reversed - spell 1st of Tishri] Mic drop. There are many many themes for this day, but one of the biggest, most prominent themes is "Wedding of the Messiah" and also Coronation of the King. For thousands of years, kings have been coronated on Yom Teruah. God has ordained so that Jews believe that on Yom Teruah - the door of heaven is opened -- and this is a time of reflection and repentance, and making amends for past wrongs. They believe that on Day of Atonement, - the door of heaven is Shut- and God makes the sentence - passing the judgment sentence for the coming year. Interesting that in Rev 4, John says that there was the voice of God like a shout, and the door of heaven was opened, and the voice said "Come up here" and the church is not mentioned again, until the end of Revelation. Hmmmm. I'm hoping for a Day of Atonement rapture, or even feast of Booths, but at this point in my mind, it is out of order. What am I missing? Maranatha |
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Post by boraddict on Sept 23, 2020 19:49:07 GMT -6
rt, I loved the point that you made about Jesus being the first and last trumpet. Additionally, are you making a reference to Rev. 1:10 as the first trumpet and Rev. 4:1 as the last trumpet? Or, do you see other references in the BofR to which your conclusion applies? Very nice.
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Post by venge on Sept 24, 2020 7:27:40 GMT -6
disciple4life , I was hesitant to reply to you because I dont want to argue, but my spirit is pulling me to do so (reply). You said: If the awakening blast, the resurrection of the dead, happens on a Yom Teruah and that day "for thousands of years" has been the day Kings have been coronated on, shouldnt we look to scripture to see a day when Christ himself is married and crowned King to be a possible Yom Teruah? 1. Christ begins to reign 2. Bema seat 3. Rewards to all in faith 4. Destroy those that destroy the earth (Day of atonement) - door is shut 1. Christ begins to reign (7th trumpet) 2. Marriage on same day (resurrection of the dead - Yom Teruah) As you had stated: most prominent themes is "Wedding of the Messiah" and also Coronation of the King. For thousands of years, kings have been coronated on Yom Teruah.
I agree 100%. But that is not located in Rev 4 or 5. It is found in Ch 11 at the 7th Trumpet and Ch. 19 after Babylon is destroyed. Because scripture plainly tells us he reigns at that time and he is married at that time, we can say with a surety, based upon your own study, that is Yom Teruah.
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Post by rt on Sept 24, 2020 8:58:11 GMT -6
rt , I loved the point that you made about Jesus being the first and last trumpet. Additionally, are you making a reference to Rev. 1:10 as the first trumpet and Rev. 4:1 as the last trumpet? Or, do you see other references in the BofR to which your conclusion applies? Very nice. Jesus speaks with the voice of the trumpet as you so aptly pointed out in the verses you posted. Jesus is also the alpha and omega, the first and the last. He is the first and last trumpet. It's not an issue of timing or ordinal value, rather, at least in my mind, it is an issue of identification. Of who Jesus is. It is at the voice of Jesus that the dead are resurrected. This voice is the last trumpet, for those who are resurrected. It is the last sound every person will hear as they are resurrected. RT |
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Post by rt on Sept 24, 2020 9:29:50 GMT -6
disciple4life , You have a lot there in your post, but again I would stress that you are interpreting based on Jewish tradition not what God's word actually says. I believe that this Jewish man who believes in Christ is doing the same. I don't question your salvation or his. I question the method of interpretation. Yes it is true that the shofar is blown today on Yom Teruah as has been the practice for many millenia. But is that what was commanded by God? Yom Teruah was enacted as a "reminder by blowing" : The words "of trumpets" do not appear in the original manuscript, however since one of the purposes of the silver trumpets was that the nation of Israel would be remebered before God and thus be saved from their enemies. I would suggest that this indicates that the silver trumpets were intended to be used on Yom Teruak as well. Though it is possible and I would say even likely that the people joined in with shouts and rams horns as well. So whether it is a rams horn or silver trumpet doesn't really change anything. The purpose of the day and the reason for sounding the trumpets is to "remind" . It was not to celebrate or bring in the new year. The idea that the reminder was about when the law was given, is a tradition. It isn't scriptural. In fact most Jews today believe the law was given around the feast of weeks or Shavuot as they call it. The giving of the law according to Jewish sages happened not on Yom Teruah but at what we call Pentecost. www.myjewishlearning.com/article/shavuot-history-rabbinic-development/Scripture indicates that the nation of Israel was very lax when it came to following the law. The practice of the religious Jews, certainly in Jesus' day, had become more about tradition than about honoring the actual commandments of God. Jesus condemns them for this, and yet many today want to view prophecy through the lens of these traditions, including those messianic Jews. Also Jesus is identified as speaking with the voice of a trumpet in the Revelation, see the post above. Please understand, that I am in no way trying to disparage you, or others who see things as you do. I realize that I am in the minority here on this subject. It may in fact turn out that the Rapture could happen on a future Yom Teruah. This may happen so that the Lord can speak through it to the nation of Israel specifically. I do not know for certain. But when it comes to diciphering prophecy, I choose to look through the lens of God's word first and then see if other ideas line up, I just happen to see conflicts in doing so through the lens of Jewish tradition.
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Post by Gary on Sept 24, 2020 21:35:44 GMT -6
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Post by venge on Sept 25, 2020 6:47:46 GMT -6
Appreciate that find Gary. Question: Though the word exists which explains the head of the year, I dont see this one event "head of the year" as linking to it how the Jews define it. I looked up some commentaries to see what others wrote: Ellicott says: Benson: Barnes contrasts the others and says: Jamieson-Fausette etc says: Gill offers a long response because of the uncertainty of it all: He tends to lean on it as a passover lamb date and not that of atonement because "on this date the prophet has a view of the Gospel church." Geneva: This takes the opposite approach once again as some have said...commentators go both ways on it...there evidence isnt really there. Cambridge: and I will refrain from posting more. So how do you ( Gary , ) come to your conclusion? Doesnt this prophecy regard the Church... |
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for a specific couple at a specific place and specific time, Day, month and year and you show up one day early, or one day late, were you on time?? Every reasonable person would have to say "No". 
Paul said explicitly that the Lord Himself, will descend with a shout - and this perfectly mirrors the parable of the rapture - 5 wise bridesmaids, and the groom came with a shout. 
