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Post by delo63 on Sept 27, 2017 15:04:27 GMT -6
If we ask around one of the biggest arguments that atheists use against Christians is the existence of evil. It is commonly asked if God exists, then how could evil exist? If God is all good, then why would He create evil?
These are some interesting questions to ponder and at first glance it is easy to jump to conclusions like most atheists do. However, if you seek to understand the true person that is God, then it becomes easier to understand why evil would exist, and why it should exist for God to exist.
The first part of our research must come from getting a deeper understanding of the original plan. As we all know from creation and from John's account all that existed before the universe was the trinity in a vast empty space. John 1:1-5, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
So, in this passage we learn a few things. First, we see who is in this picture. The Word, which we all know as Jesus, God, who we know as the Father. Then a key passage in verse 3 teaches as that God made everything that was made. We also learn that now God was the light, there was no sun, God was the light, and darkness already existed. From this passage, we can see that light and darkness, or good and evil already were at play before God started creating the universe.
Then God starts the creation week, He makes a perfect island type paradise where all the animals lived in harmony and they all ate the plants and fruits to survive. Then we see the creation of Adam and eventually Eve. God gave them dominion over everything. This is where we already see the fatherly attribute of God taking place. He gives Adam his first set of freedom and tells him that he can do whatever he wants and we will live in this paradise together. However, interestingly God does something that at first glance we miss, but after careful observation we see the battle already being introduced.
Before I continue the verse that is generally overlooked is Genesis 2:9 which says, The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Then in verses 16 and 17 he says, And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”
If we collect what was just say we come to some interesting questions and conclusions. Firstly, God intentionally planted two trees in the middle of the land and specifically let us know this before he made Adam aware. Then he tells Adam he oversees cultivating the land, and that he can do anything he wants except eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. If we take a step back we can ask ourselves, why did God put the tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil right next to each other? Also, why were they placed directly in the middle of the garden? Then, why would he tell Adam that this is the only thing you are forbidden to do?
With these questions, we start to understand how meticulous the creation is. God intentionally placed those trees next to each other and specifically wanted Adam to see them to tempt him every single day. Basically, forcing Adam to make a choice every day. Also, to note if God created evil, then why when God was creating the universe, did a tree of knowledge of good and evil exist, when God literally just created everything. This shows us what we saw in John 1, that before anything was created, good and evil already were at play.
So, if we can get into Adam’s shoes for a second, we will start to see what he was thinking. He had power to do whatever he wanted, he had no guidelines, but then God throws him a curveball and says oh by the way you just can’t eat from that tree. Now I know myself and I know if someone tells me not to do something especially when I was a kid, I want to do it even more, because someone told me I shouldn’t do it. I bet Adam wanted that fruit more than anything and was obsessed by it, because it was the only thing that he couldn’t have.
With understanding this, we can formulate that God was showing us the purpose of our creation. It was partly to live with Him and have a relationship with Him, but also it was to test us. See, God could have created us to follow certain rules and guidelines that we had to obey. He could have forced us into submission, just like a communist leader would do. However, we all know that God is not like that, so He intentionally gave us power. He gave us the greatest power in the universe, and that is the power to choose, the power of free will.
With this power, great countries have been formed. Great cities and amazing inventions have developed due to this power. Great wars and arguments have happened due to this power. What we are seeing in our news today comes from this power. We see people taking a stand, we see them able to do whatever they want, because God granted them that gift. He didn’t want us to be an obedient lap dog. Instead He wanted us to be free, He wanted to see us grow and to see us do something that is beyond ourselves. That is why He gave us this power. This power that was granted to Adam, is granted to all of us.
The reason that evil exists is because it has always existed. It existed before anything was in this universe. However, God created us knowing that we would be tempted by this evil. Yet, He created us anyway, because He knew that there would be people that would take that power that He granted us that would change the world. He knew that there would be a remnant that would recognize this power, and use it for God’s glory. He knew that the majority would abuse the power for their own gain, but He wanted to see the remnant grow and make a little light in a dark world.
Even though evil exists, we see that good never seems to vanish completely. Even in this fallen world we see that a glimmer of hope never dies. During a hurricane or an earthquake or any other sort of devastation, there always seems to be a time of hope and community that overtakes the darkness. Now, we know that evil exists and that God uses evil to turn people back to Him, but that will only last so long. If you understand the plan, then you will know that God created us to use that power to choose Him. However, one day God will say enough is enough and He will destroy that evil all in one fell swoop.
The reason that He hasn’t is because He is still giving us a chance. Allowing us to use the power that He granted us to change the world around us. He wants us to show that hope and love with the rest of the world. While we remain, we still have a chance to save those that need to be saved. We can use the power to save this broken world.
What will you do with the power that He gave you?
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The Power
Sept 27, 2017 17:12:20 GMT -6
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Rick likes this
Post by mike on Sept 27, 2017 17:12:20 GMT -6
delo63 awesome job on this! One thing I question is evil "always" existed. Maybe you didn't necessarily mean it that way in that it was with God from the beginning? Job 38:4-7 "4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" These verse seem to me to explain all angels were celebrated when God was creating. This would imply to me this was before the fall of Lucifer. I take the same message you have and apply it to Lucifer and the fallen ones. He was the most beautiful of all of God's creation (Ezekiel 28:13-18) but God gave him a choice to serve or not. To continue to be the "anointed cherub that covers" (implies he was closet to God's throne). His free will and choice was to follow his pride and try to declare himself equal to God. We know the rest
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Post by delo63 on Sept 28, 2017 7:15:43 GMT -6
Hey Mike,
Thanks for reading my post!
I think the problem is that your focusing on Lucifer as if He was the originator of evil. However, evil had to exist in order to tempt Him to sin against God. He himself did not create evil, but instead was tempted by it. As we know He was not all bad until He allowed pride to rule over him. However, that begs the question, did sin exist before the world began?
If we look at the narrative it would seem like sin was in existence before existence. It was always there. It will still be there even when the millennium comes around, it would have to be for the final battle to commence. So the question is why did God have to build a new heaven and a new earth, or in other words a new universe? This is just my opinion but I believe that He would have to do this to leave sin in the old and start fresh with the new?
What do you think?
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Post by delo63 on Sept 28, 2017 7:17:04 GMT -6
Would you mind checking out my blog and seeing if it looks good? I have been struggling to get people to view it and I don't know how to get more people to read it.
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Post by mike on Sept 29, 2017 11:58:20 GMT -6
Hey Mike, Thanks for reading my post! I think the problem is that your focusing on Lucifer as if He was the originator of evil. However, evil had to exist in order to tempt Him to sin against God. He himself did not create evil, but instead was tempted by it. As we know He was not all bad until He allowed pride to rule over him. However, that begs the question, did sin exist before the world began? If we look at the narrative it would seem like sin was in existence before existence. It was always there. It will still be there even when the millennium comes around, it would have to be for the final battle to commence. So the question is why did God have to build a new heaven and a new earth, or in other words a new universe? This is just my opinion but I believe that He would have to do this to leave sin in the old and start fresh with the new? What do you think? Hey delo63, sorry i didnt get back sooner...I agree that Lucifer didnt originate evil, but I dont think god did either. Based on the verses in 1 John, James for example: 1 John 1:5 5 - " This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all."James 1:13 - " Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one." see also Psalm 139:2 One thing that comes to mind (for me) is that in our finite understanding we cant really comprehend the idea of no time. We assume sin had a beginning someplace and one day it will end. I digress...sin had a beginning here on earth and one day will also end here on earth), but as for in the heavens, when did that happen? Was there a 'day' Lucifer decided to rebel? was it really a day, as in the day before Adam was created or 1000 days before that...we really cant comprehend that, at least I know I cant (tho i've tried)  The other analogy I have is about darkness and light. There is no such thing as darkness only an absence of light. Apply that to good and evil, where the is no good, there is evil. (similarly there is no such thing as cold, it is only a term used to describe the absence of heat...i think you get the idea). So when Lucifer decided to be like God he became absent of the light or good and therefore evil prevailed. In essence there is no such thing as evil, it is an absence of God. So that brings me to a question...not that you have an answer but something for us and whoever else would want to join to add to the mix. tying back to your point about a new heaven and new earth. God is going to eventually destroy this planet and all the sin with it. The bible says we will be like the angels (in our glorified bodies) right? Will we still have free will? Is it possible that a rebellion could occur once more? Or will we never have that temptation with the devil in the lake of fire and the human 'sin' nature gone, we will no longer have that desire to rebel. Pandoras box That's my take brother! |
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Post by delo63 on Sept 29, 2017 12:05:28 GMT -6
Hey mike,
Thats a great question that you put there. I never thought about that after the millennium. I know there would have to be during the millennium, because we know of the last uprising. However, im not sure what happens afterwards. I wonder if the new heaven and earth even has evil in it, or if it is like a gated community type of deal, where only good can enter?
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Post by mike on Sept 29, 2017 13:24:20 GMT -6
Would you mind checking out my blog and seeing if it looks good? I have been struggling to get people to view it and I don't know how to get more people to read it. I took a peek...I'm not very good with this type of stuff. One thing I noticed is the scrpture at the top is cut off. I think its Hebrews 11:1? I can only see "ews 11:1" Do you have it linked to a Facebook account or anything like that? |
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Post by delo63 on Sept 29, 2017 14:03:25 GMT -6
were you on a phone or a computer?
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The Power
Sept 29, 2017 15:38:45 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by mike on Sept 29, 2017 15:38:45 GMT -6
were you on a phone or a computer? Computer, chrome as browser, now I'm on my phone |
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Post by Rick on Oct 18, 2017 15:00:33 GMT -6
Hey Mike, Thanks for reading my post! I think the problem is that your focusing on Lucifer as if He was the originator of evil. However, evil had to exist in order to tempt Him to sin against God. He himself did not create evil, but instead was tempted by it. As we know He was not all bad until He allowed pride to rule over him. However, that begs the question, did sin exist before the world began? If we look at the narrative it would seem like sin was in existence before existence. It was always there. It will still be there even when the millennium comes around, it would have to be for the final battle to commence. So the question is why did God have to build a new heaven and a new earth, or in other words a new universe? This is just my opinion but I believe that He would have to do this to leave sin in the old and start fresh with the new? What do you think? Hello delo63 , I'm not sure if your familiar with Isa 45. God tells us Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. I think we can see as in this verse He did indeed create everything including darkness and evil. That being said it could not have already exsisted. Also, during the millennium, Satan is chained in the Abbis and there will be no evil nor any temptation to sin during this period of time. Once Satan is released for a short time after the millennium, sin will once again be around. God Bless~ 2Ti 2:15 |
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Post by Rick on Oct 18, 2017 15:40:22 GMT -6
Would you mind checking out my blog and seeing if it looks good? I have been struggling to get people to view it and I don't know how to get more people to read it. I took a peek...I'm not very good with this type of stuff. One thing I noticed is the scrpture at the top is cut off. I think its Hebrews 11:1? I can only see "ews 11:1" Do you have it linked to a Facebook account or anything like that? Hey mike, your right, I'm using Firefox and it's cut off. Here is a screenshot,  |
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Post by grandpaskitzo on Oct 18, 2017 16:52:42 GMT -6
Hey Mike, Thanks for reading my post! I think the problem is that your focusing on Lucifer as if He was the originator of evil. However, evil had to exist in order to tempt Him to sin against God. He himself did not create evil, but instead was tempted by it. As we know He was not all bad until He allowed pride to rule over him. However, that begs the question, did sin exist before the world began? If we look at the narrative it would seem like sin was in existence before existence. It was always there. It will still be there even when the millennium comes around, it would have to be for the final battle to commence. So the question is why did God have to build a new heaven and a new earth, or in other words a new universe? This is just my opinion but I believe that He would have to do this to leave sin in the old and start fresh with the new? What do you think? Hello delo63 , I'm not sure if your familiar with Isa 45. God tells us Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. I think we can see as in this verse He did indeed create everything including darkness and evil. That being said it could not have already exsisted. Also, during the millennium, Satan is chained in the Abbis and there will be no evil nor any temptation to sin during this period of time. Once Satan is released for a short time after the millennium, sin will once again be around. God Bless~ 2Ti 2:15 Are you sure about that? I don't know the scripture exactly, but in Isaiah it talks about the Millenium reign and how people will be able to die young (100years is young as a child) because of their sin/choices. Just because Satan is gone doesn't neccesarily mean sin is gone yet. I believe the tempter himself is gone, but we still have our sinful nature. We are born into it, hence why man is appointed to die once. I think we, at least I, need some clarification on this. |
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Post by MikeTaft on Oct 18, 2017 18:31:58 GMT -6
Hello delo63 , I'm not sure if your familiar with Isa 45. God tells us Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. I think we can see as in this verse He did indeed create everything including darkness and evil. That being said it could not have already exsisted. Also, during the millennium, Satan is chained in the Abbis and there will be no evil nor any temptation to sin during this period of time. Once Satan is released for a short time after the millennium, sin will once again be around. God Bless~ 2Ti 2:15 Are you sure about that? I don't know the scripture exactly, but in Isaiah it talks about the Millenium reign and how people will be able to die young (100years is young as a child) because of their sin/choices. Just because Satan is gone doesn't neccesarily mean sin is gone yet. I believe the tempter himself is gone, but we still have our sinful nature. We are born into it, hence why man is appointed to die once. I think we, at least I, need some clarification on this. You have a valid point grandpaskitzo. I can't find anything that says in Revelation 20, besides the saints, that they will not die in the millinial reign. Unless it's described in the OT. |
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Post by mike on Oct 18, 2017 19:07:08 GMT -6
RickI know we didn't not do an in depth study on this verse but I'm thinking we should. I'm of the opinion that it is that God has allowed us to choose between Him and not Him. Apart from Him or with Him. Apart from is evil, with Him there is none. Over in the thread I started called God is Love we briefly discussed this. I will pick it up again and review some more, interested in discussing it further? On the period when Satan is bound you could be right. I know we have a sin nature and that was birthed when Adam fell. So does that mean it's gone in the millennium? Probably not, but Rev doesn't specify either way. Satan doesnt make us sin, he temps us...these are interesting studies.
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Post by Rick on Oct 18, 2017 23:36:53 GMT -6
Hello delo63 , I'm not sure if your familiar with Isa 45. God tells us Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. I think we can see as in this verse He did indeed create everything including darkness and evil. That being said it could not have already exsisted. Also, during the millennium, Satan is chained in the Abbis and there will be no evil nor any temptation to sin during this period of time. Once Satan is released for a short time after the millennium, sin will once again be around. God Bless~ 2Ti 2:15 Are you sure about that? I don't know the scripture exactly, but in Isaiah it talks about the Millenium reign and how people will be able to die young (100years is young as a child) because of their sin/choices. Just because Satan is gone doesn't neccesarily mean sin is gone yet. I believe the tempter himself is gone, but we still have our sinful nature. We are born into it, hence why man is appointed to die once. I think we, at least I, need some clarification on this. You are correct grandpaskitzo during the millennial period, those that lived through the tribulation will still be on earth. There will be no wars and nothing but peace. They will still have their carnal bodies and marrying, building, having kids etc. but, they will eventually die (100+ Yrs?) and if they have accepted Jesus they will receive their new heavenly body. True that because they still have their carnal bodies and their free will, there is the possibility to sin, but they won’t be tempted by Satan for he is chained. After the 1000 years, Satan is loosed for a “little season” and once again he goes out to deceive the nations. Isaiah 65:20–21 (KJV 1900) 20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, Nor an old man that hath not filled his days: For the child shall die an hundred years old; But the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. 21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; And they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. Revelation 20:1–3 (KJV 1900) 1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. Revelation 20:7–8 (KJV 1900) 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. God Bless~ 2Ti 2:15 |
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