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Post by cwood85 on Aug 29, 2019 22:07:40 GMT -6
Thanks for playing cwood You have children right? Do you Force them to love you? Do you guide them to love you? Do you lead them so that they love? What if despite all your efforts to demonstrate your love for them, they despise you? (Jesus I pray it would never be so). This is what happened to the Jews. They refused to acknowledge who God is/was throughout the entire Bible. At which point He gave them over to their desires (for their own destruction, to lead them to repentance). In other words, blinding them. They refused, God said "as you wish". Their desire was/is to not love and accept their Messiah. This is the "free will" aspect I see. I think a great example of this is found in Matt 22 where the king sends his servants to the great banquet for his son, yet they refused repeatedly. Leaving the banquet open to what amounts to strangers. Those invited had a choice to attend or refuse. As for Jonah, I'm not sure I concur with your analysis as He was in relationship with God. As a 'son' his status with the Father is not the same as one who is not part of the family. Calvinism - in regards to free will basically says " if you're saved, it's from the day you're born and nothing you can do changes that". In that light saying we are not free to choose is similar to Calvinism. Hope that helps what I said a few pages back and Natalie reiterated Sorry for replying to this in sections lol. I agree to God giving us over to a debased mindset and we can clearly see that happening today by watching not even 5 minutes of the news. 😬 On the second part that I bolded, I ask hard questions and not necessarily at all directed at you mike. *WHY* is it so important that we chose or accept salvation? Why is this something that the humanity in us feels we have control of or have to make a choice of whether or not we accept it? Why is it that we need to feel we have made the right choice? Please don’t answer with the robot response, because that just isn’t an answer, it’s a response with no thought behind it and done almost in a defensive sense. Again not directed at anyone in particular. I ask and I am going back to what I said above, we do not chose gravity or time but both are there affecting us every moment of everyday. Heck we can even chose to be atheist, but that doesn’t *poof* and make God disappear, He still there breathing his life into us whether we want him to or not. He is still rotating our planet around the sun even though he gets no glory for it. He keeps the sun and the earth at the perfect distance and allows the planet and His creation experience the beauty of change and seasons. Does that go against freewill that all these things happen and will continue happening whether we believe it or not? Because if we put things all in the same context, God being salvation does not ultimately affect our will. If we don’t believe and constantly bury ourselves in sin, we are miserable. When we see the light of hope and redemption we are liberated and freed from the bondage of not being able to save ourselves and constantly trying. We can even refuse to love, but that doesn’t make others stop loving us. There isn’t a human will that will be strong enough to say I chose destruction over life when in this short and measly life we claw and scratch to remain here as long as we can. Sometimes we put ourselves through hell and worse for the possibility of a couple more years or even months. But when faced with the blessings of God we would chose damnation when we cannot even do that now? To me that just says we as beings supersede God and his love with our own vanity and pride
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Post by cwood85 on Aug 29, 2019 19:32:32 GMT -6
John 1:12 only believers are children of God Although the Pope says otherwise... Yes that verse says believers are children of God. But the use of the word child is interesting and to me goes back to statement of the gospel being so easy that a child can understand and so being stated in scriptures. Fast dorwa to today and we have 40,000 denominations all with their own take on the gospel. How easy is that to understand? The pope isn’t the only one who says that either and so what if he does? 5043 téknon – properly, a child; ( figuratively) anyone living in full dependence on the heavenly Father, i.e. fully (willingly) relying upon the Lord in glad submission. This prompts God to transform them into His likeness. There are verses that talk about every knee bowing in glad submission to the Lord, not once but three times. I know that has already been discussed here so I will not go into great detail. Are unbelievers bastards? A different level of creation or humans? I am not being snarky, but genuine. EDITING TO ADD: Here is verse 12 & 13 of John 1 in regards to children of God and who that is. 12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the WILL of the flesh nor of the WILL of man, but of God.
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Post by cwood85 on Aug 29, 2019 18:18:36 GMT -6
Thanks for playing cwood You have children right? Do you Force them to love you? Do you guide them to love you? Do you lead them so that they love? What if despite all your efforts to demonstrate your love for them, they despise you? (Jesus I pray it would never be so). This is what happened to the Jews. They refused to acknowledge who God is/was throughout the entire Bible. At which point He gave them over to their desires (for their own destruction, to lead them to repentance). In other words, blinding them. They refused, God said "as you wish". Their desire was/is to not love and accept their Messiah. This is the "free will" aspect I see. I think a great example of this is found in Matt 22 where the king sends his servants to the great banquet for his son, yet they refused repeatedly. Leaving the banquet open to what amounts to strangers. Those invited had a choice to attend or refuse. As for Jonah, I'm not sure I concur with your analysis as He was in relationship with God. As a 'son' his status with the Father is not the same as one who is not part of the family. Calvinism - in regards to free will basically says "if you're saved, it's from the day you're born and nothing you can do changes that". In that light saying we are not free to choose is similar to Calvinism. Hope that helps what I said a few pages back and Natalie reiterated I do have children. Two who are both very strong willed and stubborn to the death lol. I cannot force anyone to love, but children are born and at least as a younger child seek their parents love as affection constantly. Even children in abusive situations still try to find a way to experience their parents love and wish or hope for it. I do not say that lightly by any means. However the same questions can be turned back to the parents. Is there anything your children can do to make you love them more? Better behavior, grades, decisions? Does any choices or actions make your live grow or secuRe it for them? Or is your love just there and exist no matter what they do? If your child completely turned their back on you and despised you after giving them a loving home and good upbringing, would you stop loving them? Would you ever stop perusing and seeking them? Would you be be unable forgive them? This is where my mind goes constantly, are we human parents capable of more love and forgiveness than God? Because majority of doctrines and theology seems to teach that or pretty close to it. Think of the worst thing your child could do. Would you still love them? Forgive them? We are ALL made in Gods image and are ALL his sons and daughters, not just some or those who chose well. All humans were created in his image and he breathes his life into all of us.
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Post by cwood85 on Aug 29, 2019 16:01:52 GMT -6
In my mind, Calvinism contradicts free will. The idea that God chooses who the elect are would contradict the idea that we have the choice thus free will. Those He doesn't choose have no choice either. Of course, Calvinist may say that I have completely misunderstood. I'm not sure how Calvinism plays into this thread topic.
Also the idea that God has blinded people. If they are blind they are not free to choose.
I also think I may be missing the point of cwood's post, and I apologize cwood for that. I will come back when I have more time to reread and think about it.
Just to clarify, I absolutely abhor Calvinism. If anything I say or post sounds or seems related to a certain “ism” in doctrines, denominations and so fourth, it is not intentional. I am honestly very ignorant of a lot of details of the different denominations and “isms” because it’s rather overwhelming and irritating that there are so many of them. Also it’s not an idea or conclusion of mine that God blinds people based on my own knowledge, but simply what is pointed out multiple time the Bible. Does it still happen today? I don’t know and I do not think we should entirely assume it doesn’t. In reference to who God does and does not choose for whatever reason or purpose is not based on our free will or decisions. If he wants us to do something, it’s going to happen. I mean Jonah got swallowed by a fish for saying No and refusing. If there is any way to convince anyone to do something, it obviously done in whatever way works. God entirely trampled Jonah’s “freewill” for disobeying. So God only does this in certain extreme cases? Again the logic against this is against God being partial to no one. Sure we can say no and try to run away or avoid God, but He WILL get you to do his will. I can’t think of too many things that would be more extreme than by getting swallowed by a giant fish 🐟 and stewing in its digestive juices for 3 days... 😱😬😵🤮 I am not saying we do not have a will of our own. Clearly we get to make our choices and their are benefits and consequences for our choices. I am out of time for now and will add more later.
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Post by cwood85 on Aug 29, 2019 13:32:44 GMT -6
Something came to mind today, well more like slammed into it tbh lol. I am also working on answering questions in this thread and even messages. School is starting and I have been just crazy. So this isn't going to be long and is something that is to ponder on. It is not fact or an absolute certainty, just some thoughts in regards to this thread and it's topic. Often or more like many and most of the time when one brings up rebuttals of reconciliation or restoration for all of creation is our free will. If this gets too off topic I can start a thread if there isn't one already. We know that gravity and time LOVE both exist even though we cannot see, taste, touch, or hear either of them. Both are LOVE is experienced day in and day out whether we like it or not, they just both simply exist. God is LOVE AND IS in control of these things by His power AND HOW they operate. The earth rotates on its axis at a certain speed, goes around the sun in a certain amount of time and speed and this gives us a measurement of "time." All of this was made under extreme preciseness and was set in motion by God and the smallest misalignment could cause devastating consequences, like the earth being too close or too far from the sun and either freezing or baking us all. We cannot deny the existence of time and gravity LOVE or refuse to accept it. We cannot control gravity or make our bodies work without it. We cannot one day decide to say " time LOVE I no longer believe in you" or " gravity LOVE I will not accept your effects on me and my life" because both will continue on no matter what we believe or think. We can temporarily cause conditions that seem to suspend gravity LOVE or slow and accelerate time LOVE, but we really cannot or do not stop or alter it. We can go to space and be without gravity, but not for extended periods of time because of the negative effects it has on our bodies. Our bodies begin to deteriorate and literally shrink without it. Now here is where our choice comes in with experiencing LOVE time and even gravity. We can choose how we experience time LOVE by either using it for the good or wasting it. Time LOVE can be our friend or our enemy depending on the choices we make in experiencing it. No matter how we decide to use it, it still continues on at the same rate everyday, minute, second and so on. We have no control of it and it does not need us to exist or be experienced. Same with gravity. So we must ask ourselves do we have free will to either accept or deny gravity/time LOVE or does it continue on no matter what we think? That is a little rhetorical. But with both of these that we experience every moment of our lives whether we like them to or not continue on no matter what we think or what choice we make. The choices we make only change our experience of it LOVE, but no the phenomenons themselves. Because God is LOVE in control of them, they occur no matter what and this has no effect on it being based on our "free will." To me, this is what God is saying when He refers to himself as the great I AM or that he is the same past, present and future and never changes and this how I view it when He says that He and only He is salvation. We can choose how we experience His salvation while on this earth and also experience the benefits or consequences of how we choose to make His salvation friend or foe. again just some thoughts of mine on this subject as I continue on with my responses to things... Alright mike I will play along Since God is love and the source of love, does our choice in believing in it/Him or accepting it/Him alter His existence, or our experience of it? He still breathes his life in and out of our nostrils everyday whether we want Him too or not, and it is His breath of life to give or take. Even if one argues well what about those who commit suicide, is that going against Gods plan of how our current life would end?
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Post by cwood85 on Aug 29, 2019 12:50:32 GMT -6
Something came to mind today, well more like slammed into it tbh lol. I am also working on answering questions in this thread and even messages. School is starting and I have been just crazy. So this isn't going to be long and is something that is to ponder on. It is not fact or an absolute certainty, just some thoughts in regards to this thread and it's topic.
Often or more like many and most of the time when one brings up rebuttals of reconciliation or restoration for all of creation is our free will. If this gets too off topic I can start a thread if there isn't one already.
We know that gravity and time both exist even though we cannot see, taste, touch, or hear either of them. Both are experienced day in and day out whether we like it or not, they just both simply exist. God is in control of these things and by His power they operate. The earth rotates on its axis at a certain speed, goes around the sun in a certain amount of time and speed and this gives us a measurement of "time." All of this was made under extreme preciseness and was set in motion by God and the smallest misalignment could cause devastating consequences, like the earth being too close or too far from the sun and either freezing or baking us all. We cannot deny the existence of time and gravity or refuse to accept it. We cannot control gravity or make our bodies work without it. We cannot one day decide to say "time I no longer believe in you" or "gravity I will not accept your effects on me and my life" because both will continue on no matter what we believe or think. We can temporarily cause conditions that seem to suspend gravity or slow and accelerate time, but we really cannot or do not stop or alter it. We can go to space and be without gravity, but not for extended periods of time because of the negative effects it has on our bodies. Our bodies begin to deteriorate and literally shrink without it.
Now here is where our choice comes in with experiencing time and even gravity. We can choose how we experience time bu either using it for the good or wasting it. Time can be our friend or our enemy depending on the choices we make in experiencing it. No matter how we decide to use it, it still continues on at the same rate everyday, minute, second and so on. We have no control of it and it does not need us to exist or be experienced. Same with gravity.
So we must ask ourselves do we have free will to either accept or deny gravity/time or does it continue on no matter what we think? That is a little rhetorical. But with both of these that we experience every moment of our lives whether we like them to or not continue on no matter what we think or what choice we make. The choices we make only change our experience of it, but no the phenomenons themselves. Because God is in control of them, they occur no matter what and this has no effect on it being based on our "free will."
To me, this is what God is saying when He refers to himself as the great I AM or that he is the same past, present and future and never changes and this how I view it when He says that He and only He is salvation. We can choose how we experience His salvation while on this earth and also experience the benefits or consequences of how we choose to make His salvation friend or foe.
again just some thoughts of mine on this subject as I continue on with my responses to things...
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Post by cwood85 on Aug 26, 2019 18:33:57 GMT -6
But my question would be...did God blind your husband? Or is he blind because of how he was raised, the thoughts he thinks, pride, stubbornness, (realize I don't know him and am just listing things)? Is your denomination blind because they have accepted man made interpretations, or pride, or self-righteousness, whatever? (again, I don't know them, just giving examples. And you can bow your knee but not necessarily your heart. Every knee may bow, but that doesn't mean they are loyal to the king. They can see Him as rightful ruler, but that doesn't mean they belong to Him. Actually it is a full acceptance, acknowledgement, even praise and whole heartedly loyal and joyful in the confession, agreement, allegiance or whichever word the particular translation uses. No half hearted ness or begrudgingly in agreement. In all honesty the Greek or even Aramaic to English does no justice for the depths of the meaning of the word used here in the NT and in the original Isaiah passage. Many studies have been done in regards to this word, much like agape (absolute pure enduring love). Here is The Greek: 1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back). a) I consent fully, agree out and out, (b) I confess, admit, acknowledge (cf. the early Hellenistic sense of the middle: I acknowledge a debt), (c) I give thanks, praise.The translation to the Greek from the Aramaic is a transliteration. This verse is repeated 3 times throughout scriptures and in Isaiah God says His word will not return void and he declares every knee will bow and every tongue will wholeheartedly agree and confess with no reservation, even in praise will confess Jesus as Lord and Savior. How can we read this and say this is not so or will only happen for a particular group of people or believers? Having the understanding that all means all is taking things out of context? I am sorry but my heart says this is repeated to mean pay attention to this as the Lord declares it as so and not being taken out of context. EDITING TO ADD: “ that if you confess with your mouth, " Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised Him out from the dead, you will be saved (present tense, not future) .”I underlined the word confess because it is another word where the English translation is so dull. This word is meaning to come to an understanding or acknowledge with assurance.
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Post by cwood85 on Aug 26, 2019 11:32:07 GMT -6
The Bible speaks of the Jews being blind, but to my knowledge it does not speak of God blinding any others except Pharaoh (who had hardened his heart, so God blinded him until God's purpose was fulfilled) <<<God hardened Pharaohs heart so he would keep refusing, otherwise the Pharaoh would have let the Israelites go. Paul says that he is going to take the message to the Gentiles because they will believe it. However, we know that not all Gentiles will believe. I have people in my family that have heard the truth and refuse to believe it. That was my point with Romans 1. Man has found many ways to suppress the truth, and Satan keeps it that way. It's not God that does it.
I find the teaching that God blinds people, gives them no chance at truth, and then punishes them for it repulsive. It's not what the Bible teaches. People have the choice to believe or not.
As do I find it repulsive and the bible says He will not punish them or anyone for it and Paul clarifies that in Romans. My point in what I am posting is we do not know when God does or does not blind someone and we absolutely should not assume everyone chooses to see, believe or not. He may have a different plan for them that we will never know. Which is why I have such an issue with the teaching of eternal torment and even annihilation because He would blind some to the truth for his purpose and not punish them, but then keep others unblinded and punish them? How is that not partiality or favoritism? Why do I say this? Because in the beginning of Romans 11, Paul points out Elijah questioned the same thing and was met with a surprising answer, God chose those who would not worship and believe in idols. 2God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3“Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE.” 4But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.” 5In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. 6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
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Post by cwood85 on Aug 26, 2019 11:16:06 GMT -6
Cwood- I did a whole thread on my studies about God choosing to blind people or not. The Pharisees had hardened their hearts toward the truth. Therefore, God kept them in this state. To blind the already hardened Pharisees was to accomplish His purpose. <<<<Yes but it also says the same for the prophets and kings of God as well who were not hard of heart. God simply did not privy them to that information even though they sought it. So, yes, I suppose God does blind some people, but it's not random; it was a select group who were already hard hearted. My understanding is that they are not permanently blind, but only until Jesus's earthly purpose was accomplished. They remained hardened, and so Paul goes to the Gentiles (Acts 28:23-28). (And we see that it was a temporary blinding because in that passage some did choose to believe) And, should a "blind" Jew today turn and seek Jesus then that veil is lifted. They are not permanently blind and can never accept the Truth. (2 Cor 3:14-16)
The disciples (and many others) were open to believing Jesus, so they had eyes to see. My understanding about the prophets is that they longed to see Jesus but it wasn't time. (1 Peter 1:10-11)
Many who followed Jesus only wanted what He could give them - healing, free food - and they did not want the truth. We see this when He starts giving them hard teachings like His body being bread. They blinded themselves. God didn't blind people and then disguise the truth in parables. That would be like putting a blindfold over a blind man's eyes. This is referenced with scripture in my reply to Mike. "11And He was saying to them, “To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables, 12so that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND BE FORGIVEN.”
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Post by cwood85 on Aug 26, 2019 11:07:43 GMT -6
cwood85 - from what you have written and quoted it appears that you think God picks certain people to blind and other to not, is that correct? If I am reading this correctly how does this not conflict with God being a respecter of persons? <<< beats the heck out of me lol I am not God. I am just posting what is in scriptures. For further reference to God blinding some and not others for His purpose, will and His plan behind the blinding please see the verses from Romans below. It was for their future good and reconciliation that they were blinded and everything was told in parables. They are not being condemned for being blinded in the long run by God.
"7What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
8just as it is written,
“GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,
EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,
DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY.”
9And David says,
“LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP,
AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM.
10“LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT,
AND BEND THEIR BACKS FOREVER.”
11I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! How does He chose one person to blind over another and why? ^^^I think these verses answer your question here. For an even more interesting read in this chapter in Romans 11, read verses 1-6 and how God deemed and CHOSE those who would and would not worship Baal during the time of Elijah. I do have a point with the question but want to ensure I dont assume the answer without asking first. Who is the sower in the parable? Where is the seed sown? Who came and snatched away the seed? Naturally I would assume naturally the sower is God or anyone sharing the word? I am not 100% on that and at least in these part of scripture, is not specified. God however is referred to as the farmer, grower, and etc in many other areas of scriptures. For your second question it seems the seed is sown in various areas, beside the road, in/on rocks, among thorns and in good fertile soil. Satan came and snatched the word away (in the parable this is what the birds are referencing to). The sower parable from Mark: 1He began to teach again by the sea. And such a very large crowd gathered to Him that He got into a boat in the sea and sat down; and the whole crowd was by the sea on the land. 2And He was teaching them many things in parables, and was saying to them in His teaching, 3“Listen to this! Behold, the sower went out to sow; 4as he was sowing, some seed fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate it up. 5“Other seed fell on the rocky ground where it did not have much soil; and immediately it sprang up because it had no depth of soil. 6“And after the sun had risen, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away. 7“Other seed fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked it, and it yielded no crop. 8“Other seeds fell into the good soil, and as they grew up and increased, they yielded a crop and produced thirty, sixty, and a hundredfold.” 9And He was saying, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.” The sower parable from Matthew:3And He told them many things in parables, saying, “A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4And as he was sowing, some seed fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured it.
5Some fell on rocky ground, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6But when the sun rose, the seedlings were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the seedlings. 8Still other seed fell on good soil and produced a crop—a hundredfold, sixtyfold, or thirtyfold. 9He who has ears,a let him hear.” The sower parable from Luke:4When a large crowd was coming together, and those from the various cities were journeying to Him, He spoke by way of a parable: 5“The sower went out to sow his seed; and as he sowed, some fell beside the road, and it was trampled under foot and the birds of the air ate it up. 6“Other seed fell on rocky soil, and as soon as it grew up, it withered away, because it had no moisture. 7“Other seed fell among the thorns; and the thorns grew up with it and choked it out. 8“Other seed fell into the good soil, and grew up, and produced a crop a hundred times as great.” As He said these things, He would call out, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”
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Post by cwood85 on Aug 26, 2019 8:18:45 GMT -6
and to continue with what Mike said...these cultures then influence the following generations. It's what I think Romans 1 speaks of. Man suppresses the truth. God doesn't blind people to the truth, Satan does through false religion. But they do not have to stay blind; it's not permanent. Ummmm? 10As soon as He was alone, His followers, along with the twelve, began asking Him about the parables. 11And He was saying to them, “To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables, 12so that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND BE FORGIVEN.”And 21At that very time He rejoiced greatly in the Holy Spirit, and said, “ I praise You, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight. 22“All things have been handed over to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.” 23Turning to the disciples, He said privately, “Blessed are the eyes which see the things you see, 24for I say to you, that many prophets and kings wished to see the things which you see, and did not see them, and to hear the things which you hear, and did not hear them.”
Not trying to be argumentative but it seems God blinds people to how He sees fit including His prophets to what he does and does not want them to know or understand. Seems he confounded and did not reveal the truths to the scholars and educated religious leaders during multiple generations on purpose and Jesus praised Him for it. Does that mean all who heard the parables and did not understand are now in hell? God blinded them on purpose as is clearly stated knowing they would die in ignorance and damned them at the same time? In the very next verses of Mark 4 we see what role Satan plays in tampering with the word. Satan may deceive but we make false religion based on our lies, vanity and pride. 13And He said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How will you understand all the parables? 14“The sower sows the word. 1 5“These are the ones who are beside the road where the word is sown; and when they hear, immediately Satan comes and takes away the word which has been sown in them. 16“In a similar way these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; 17and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away. 18“And others are the ones on whom seed was sown among the thorns; these are the ones who have heard the word, 19but the worries of the world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 20“And those are the ones on whom seed was sown on the good soil; and they hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirty, sixty, and a hundredfold.”
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Post by cwood85 on Aug 20, 2019 8:30:48 GMT -6
cwood85 - I dont see the Romans 14:11 in the context which you are applying it. Contextually my vantage on it is Paul speaking to other believers, brothers who were disputing certain days to observe, foods to eat etc. Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. 2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. 4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. 7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. 10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. 14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. 16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of: 17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. 18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. 19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another. 20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence. 21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. 22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. 23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.I dont see an appreciable difference in the verses quoted from Philippians where Paul is talking about the position of Christ, not that everyone will be saved. 1 Tim where if you remove the chapter and verses you will see that he was talking about those who oppose the gospel (Hymanaeus & Alexander) transitions to those in power on earth and says to pray for them all, which would include those who oppose the gospel (and blaspheme) as God WANTS them all to be saved. It is certainly His will and desire that all come to the knowledge of the truth, but that is not equivalent to that they will come to that knowledge. Also I didnt mean that you were Calvinistic...I blew that post. My intent was that in Calvin everyone who will be saved was determined before they were born and those who are damned have no option. In my horrible effort I meant that you believe everyone would be saved at one point or another and in my mind that is similar in thought process but certainly not in doctrine. I still look forward to the other piece I asked about. I genuinely do not see it as you do and ask for understanding, not necessarily to challenge your view. Paul is quoting from Isaiah 45 in both books of the NT. There are also very similar passages in Ezekiel. 21“Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old?
Who has long since declared it?
Is it not I, the LORD?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A righteous God and a Savior;
There is none except Me. 22“Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.
23“I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
24“They will say of Me, ‘Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.’
Men will come to Him,
And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame. <<<< Not hell, not ET, but shame....
25“In the LORD all the offspring of Israel Will be justified and will glory.”
I am leaving tomorrow for camping for 4 days and will return to this when we are back if I am not able to comment any further today.
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Post by cwood85 on Aug 20, 2019 8:06:34 GMT -6
mike, I know the Isaiah passage is used a lot in refrencing to study line up line and so fourth. Please read the rest of that passage and maybe even out loud (makes it easier to hear as a conversation, at least for me lol), because what the Lord states at the end is not an encouragement. To whom will he teach knowledge,
and to whom will he explain the message? <<<< referring to who the priest will teachThose who are weaned from the milk, those taken from the breast? 10For it is precept upon precept, precept upon precept,
line upon line, line upon line,
here a little, there a little.” 11For by people of strange lips and with a foreign tongue the LORD will speak to this people, 12to whom he has said, “This is rest; give rest to the weary; <<<The gospeland this is repose”; yet they would not hear. 13And the word of the LORD will be to them
precept upon precept, precept upon precept,
line upon line, line upon line,
here a little, there a little,
that they may go, and fall backward,
and be broken, and snared, and taken.
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Post by cwood85 on Aug 19, 2019 16:08:09 GMT -6
cwood85 , are you saying the sinful part gets separated from the humanity 'part' and thrown into the Lake of Fire and the humanity part goes where?? Can you support that view scripturally as well if I am interpreting what you said properly?? Definitely not saying it as fact or I know and that’s what the question mark is for lol. But my point that I am trying to get out of my head which is easier said than done sometimes, is the text is listing behaviors and sin that all of us are guilty of. It doesn’t just say unbelievers going into the lake of fire, which is what is preached in most churches. Accept Jesus as your savior and avoid hell, correct? But the verse does list off of a lot of sinful behaviors. It doesn’t say unbelievers who do these sinful things, but unbelievers and those in addition who do these things of the list of other behaviors and sin. It also says all liars and that is the only sin with the word all in front of it. What if you came to the understanding and belief that Jesus is your savior but were formicating in an unmarried relationship? Or were a homosexual and struggling with leaving your partner and not being attracted to the same sex? Those things are considered sexual immorality. Would you go to the lake of fire as viewed and taught by many as hell if you died will possibly falling off the wagon? We have all played a part in sin. We don’t sin all day long non stop, but we do take a part in sinful behaviors.
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Post by cwood85 on Aug 19, 2019 13:56:21 GMT -6
Jumping from the "mark" thread here. I have a question or two about restoring all things. First I will reiterate, I do not wish to argue so please understand why I ask the questions I have. I respect this view on scripture and while I don't agree (at least yet) I see where the argument can be made for it. So please understand I am not challenging this view rather trying to understand it more as there are some applications where I don't see it fit A few weeks back BSG posted something about how a non-believer would not have benefits of reading Greek or understanding things could be translated better. Please keep that in mind as the questions I ask are from a non-believer or atheitstuc view. My question to you or others is 1. I view Heaven as being with Jesus for eternity. He is the desire I/we have. A place without time dwelling with the Savior and His Father. If one does not want to accept Christ as Savior as some atheists state, why would the Lord force one to be with Him for eternity at some eventual point? Even if after purification in the Lake of Fire? Part b to this - why don't we who believe need further purification too? If on a deathbed someone received Christ, changing their heart and mind about who He is - why shouldn't that person experience some type of "time" being purified too? I suppose this would apply to everyone who believes regardless of how long they may believe.Everyone needs refinement at one point or another in their life. If everyone however has received salvation, it wouldn't matter when someone believes or not. Now this is not to say to go sin all you want and be merry about it! Which Paul clarified this because that is crucifying Christ over and over again. Our actions still have consequences and for many, earthly consequences. What are the consequences with God in this regard? His wrath correction and chastisement. The wages of sin is death. But there are a couple of important factors that needs to be looked at here. In the way things are laid out in Revelation, death and hades, Satan and false prophet are thrown in the lake of fire before any humans are.
Hades (grave, realm of the dead) + Death go into the lake of fire and exist no more. So death and the grave are long gone.
Than we have these sorts of people going in after death and hades: "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their PART will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
I capitalized the word part here because this is the Greek word and its definition: Meros: a part, share, portion. A part of these people go into the Lake of fire, not their entirety as a human being? What part of them? Looks like the very sinful and wicked part of them.
2. I love the Lord and believe in Him and share my faith and experiences with people. But if the Lord will save all, why urge being saved now as opposed to waiting until after they pass or He returns? Why not indulge in the flesh, maybe die sooner to be rid of this world then be purified?
I think I may have answered this partially above but will come back this evening to finish it. I may have others to ask but think I should pause here
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