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Post by watchmanjim on Aug 16, 2017 23:09:29 GMT -6
That sounds about right, socal. I think we will see a new (not static and perpetual) visual representation of the dragon. However, it may or may not have something to do with Draco. I think it will all make sense when it pops up, and I do think the use of the word "Behold" indicates "wow, look at that!" or something similar in this context. I do believe that John wrote from a Hebrew style even though (or if!) he wrote it in Greek, and some of these Hebrew morays shine through, both here, and in other New Testament books by him and others. An interesting example of how an expression can be impressed from one language onto another is the funny little phrase we use in English when we say "Long time, no see." This is a word-for-word literal translation of the identical phrase in Chinese. Evidently, Chinese people many years ago, when they were learning English, did what most anyone does when they are learning a new language by the seat of their pants--they use the new words they learn to literally translate common phrases in their own language into English. Thus the phrase "Hao jiou, bu jien." Becomes "Long time, no see." And then native English speakers heard the Chinese say this funny little phrase in English, and were so amused by it, that they began saying it themselves to be funny. And thus it has transferred over into our language in this form unto this day. When I learned Chinese, I nearly fell out of my chair laughing when I learned that they very literally say "Hao jiou, bu jien" and always have for thousands of years, when greeting someone they have not seen for a while.  The same kind of thing happens when interchanging between any two languages. Sometimes it is not because something is funny, but because it is felt necessary to convey a thought from one language, into another language, for which there is not an exact equivalent of the same thought, that the thought is forced into the second language in a way not quite native to it. |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Aug 16, 2017 23:13:22 GMT -6
just thought this should be here if someone hadn't seen this comment re: the dragon. a good summary gary, something to consider for sure!
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Post by MissusMack08 on Aug 17, 2017 0:16:27 GMT -6
Draco is constantly twirling around in the northern sky. A 1/3 rotation simply indicates a 3-4 month period, if we interpret this as referring to the rotation of Draco. Also, I take it Daniel Valles believes in a partial rapture? That if you don't "sanctify yourself" you won't be raptured? He needs to read the change in the Greek word for "sleep" in 1 Thess 5. Also read Hebrews 10:10-18. I take it he doesn't believe in imputed righteousness either. Who then is he trusting to save him? Sorry these things drive me nuts because it distracts the focus of one's salvation from Jesus to oneself, which only leads to fear, doubt, and failing to rest in Jesus Christ. I understand. It's hard to imagine someone not fully accepting God's all-encompassing grace. I haven't come across those particular beliefs in the videos I've seen that I know of or that I recognized. We need to be careful not to confuse the sign with the interpretation of the sign or invalidate the sign because there are disagreements with other aspects of doctrine that are not directly related to the sign. That's akin to people completely dismissing the sign on September 23rd as if it's not actually happening in the sky just because they believe "no man knows the day or the hour" or because they don't believe in a pre-trib rapture. We have to somehow pull interpretation out and look objectively first, interpret later. Easier said than done. Yes, so what Daniel is saying (interpreting) is that Draco is a time marker. It marks a specific duration of time as the dragon comes to face the woman before Sept 23, but he's narrowed it down to under two months, I believe. (He bases it on 1/3 of the stars that John can see at the time it's occurring, not literally 1/3 of the entire 360 degree field). This sign and interpretation seem logical to me because there are no sun, moon, or stars added to the dragon sign and it's not described as "great." But I do expect to see it in the sky just like the "great sign." So it could be just a mundane occurrence but because it is happening in conjunction with the "great sign," it gives more information about that sign or the interpretation of that sign. In this case, the interpretation is that it's a time frame— a count down, if you will. We also know the dragon represents Satan but I don't expect to literally see Satan with 7 heads, crowns and 10 horns hanging out in the sky waiting for Jupiter to exit Virgo, unless Planet X or 7X does indeed show up in the next few days. I also don't expect him to literally cast 1/3 of the stars in the sky down to the earth. So, unless something does show up, Satan is symbolic from earth's perspective (though he is probably literally waiting in heaven for us to arrive and then thinks he can destroy us. But since he doesn't know either "what we will be", he's in for a rude awakening!) In the "great sign" we are told exactly what makes up the woman's crown (12 stars) and where exactly the moon and sun are. The scripture does not tell us what makes up the 7 heads, crowns or 10 horns of the dragon, just that he has them. So at this point, I think they are purely symbolic to help the reader identify and understand who is the beast throughout the rest of the book. I did watch Sam's video about adding the five bodies (sun, moon, 3 planets, I believe), but I honestly couldn't see it. It was like the dragon was going three different directions and was a part of several constellations. I just don't know. What would be the purpose of that sign? What IS the purpose of the dragon sign anyway??? Why does Jesus tell us about it? Why is it there? Just to confirm the already once in 7.76 billion years "great sign?" It must tell us something. Why does Satan think he can devour the male child or those raptured? Does he know or not know the birth date?? I think the answer to these questions will help us identify the dragon sign. |
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Post by socalexile on Aug 17, 2017 0:42:01 GMT -6
Yeah I brought up the other doctrinal aspects, not to dismiss his ideas on the Dragon, which is one of the more plausible theories I've heard (though ill have to double check that timeframe), but because they really effect people.
Early on in my walk I was really affected by my own inability to "walk the Christian life" and "turn from all my sins". To the point that I figured it was impossible for me, that God just didnt "choose" me, and I might as well enjoy the world while I could.
The reality, I found out 20 years later, is that we don't sanctify ourselves. We are perfect in Christ because we have been credited His righteousness. After we come to faith, we are born again and from that point on, everything we do or fail to do is a matter of rewards and losses at the Bema Seat.
So I was just expressing frustration at what Valles is laying on his listeners, which is that they can sanctify themselves by what amounts to following laws, rather than resting in the finished work of Jesus. I know what that does to people.
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Post by mike on Aug 17, 2017 19:50:31 GMT -6
I have an idea...I really can't shake that this is a spiritual view rather than a physical view of the "heavens". It is what I tried to describe earlier and failed at and Gary very eloquently managed to explain. What was John's perspective when saw both signs? Where was he when he saw this?
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Post by mike on Aug 17, 2017 20:38:15 GMT -6
Verse 1 - He describes the woman, her adornment was the sun, moon & stars, from his vantage point in heaven. He explains what he sees, physically. Every one who reads this can relate to the sun, moon and stars are common. There is no need for him to elaborate on these things.
Verse 3 - He tells us there is another sign. His view differentiates this sign from the first as the first is great, this is a "just a sign" (and there are others throughout scripture). But next he says what strikes me the most "And Behold..." "Hey look!" Why does he not tell us to "hey look over here!!" at the "great wonder"? Also note he doesn't mention any stars. He doesn't tell us what the seven crowns are, yet he tells us the woman's crowns are stars in verse 1. Why doesn't he tell us what the crowns are made of like he did in the first vision? Because these are different signs. I don't think the great red dragon is a "hidden constellation" or "planet x" or anything physically in the stars. John even tells us in verse 9 that the dragon is Satan. John sees this from heaven, it is the war in heaven.
If someone already spelled this out (likely better than I did), sorry for not reading the whole thread 😏
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Post by mike on Aug 18, 2017 6:26:44 GMT -6
Ok now that I read the rest of the pages I see that Brad & Gary777 & BOSG have similar takes on this. One more thing...I really enjoy analyzing Gods word and the commentary you all provide sharpening me, preparing me for today, tomorrow and onward. One thing came to mind yesterday for me, dont forget the focus of the signs. Sometimes I feel like I am so focused on what's going on around us (the eclipse, the Great sign, earthquakes, CME's, Trump, wars in the middle east, and on and on) that seeing the King gets cloudy. Although all of this is ultimately about Him, its not specifically Him (or His character per se). So that's just how I see me...more of a confession of sorts and not pointing fingers. God bless today brothers and sisters!
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Post by whatif on Aug 18, 2017 6:55:57 GMT -6
Good morning, mike! God bless you!
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Aug 18, 2017 7:16:36 GMT -6
I really enjoy analyzing too, and WITHOUT previously published commentary (stuff in books ie Wycliff, and in some Bibles w/ added commentary). In addition to praying for discernment, I do get a start on understanding difficult things with folks like many here, and those around me from church who can help me study God;s Word.
I was wondering anymore if some of the aged commentaries have limited use. An example is seeing Rev 12:5 as the Rapture, and paralleling with Isaiah in this respect. If I had to wait for a priest to tell me about Rev 12:5 from the pulpit it would never happen...no offence intended here, just stating that our church leaders would do best to encourage us to seek knowledge by digging directly into the Bible (teach us how!), yet growing up, I did not experience that in the main-line denoms.. Come on leaders, get us excited about God's intricate, woven word, like layers of an onion, where we can really discover what an awesome God we have and how His Salvation plan was there from the very beginning! Thank GOD for His Chosen, from whom we learn so much of what our Father wants from us and for us!
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Post by mike on Aug 18, 2017 8:53:04 GMT -6
More to add about the Red Dragon
6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Great Earthquake - could be the dead rising
Stars of heaven fell to the earth - Satan and 1/3 of the angels tossed (as we go up, they come down)
Heaven departed as a scroll - John saw this, so did Stephen, so did Paul, so did Jacob, so did Moses, Ezekiel, Daniel...they got to peer behind or through the veil. this was not a 'physical' removal of heaven or the heavens it was a view of the supernatural that we dont normally have.
Oh and for good measure mountains and islands were often used as allegory for government. When all of the above occurs (rapture, Satans fury on earth, etc.) there will calamity and those in power will not know what to do. Again more a spiritual issue rather than physical, although the earth quaking will be quite physical.
Call me crazy...but the Red Dragon isnt a constellation, star or planet X
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Post by gary777 on Aug 18, 2017 10:23:59 GMT -6
More to add about the Red Dragon 6: 12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.Great Earthquake - could be the dead rising Stars of heaven fell to the earth - Satan and 1/3 of the angels tossed (as we go up, they come down) Heaven departed as a scroll - John saw this, so did Stephen, so did Paul, so did Jacob, so did Moses, Ezekiel, Daniel...they got to peer behind or through the veil. this was not a 'physical' removal of heaven or the heavens it was a view of the supernatural that we dont normally have. Oh and for good measure mountains and islands were often used as allegory for government. When all of the above occurs (rapture, Satans fury on earth, etc.) there will calamity and those in power will not know what to do. Again more a spiritual issue rather than physical, although the earth quaking will be quite physical. Call me crazy...but the Red Dragon isnt a constellation, star or planet X First thing I want to say is God is so much Higher, Greater, All Knowing when we are so limited. The quest to understand future events confounds us but not the LORD. Even though we have free will and so do the angels, God knows the end and the beginning. It is best "Visualized" by picturing God watching a parade from a helicopter, He sees the first float, the fleet of floats, and the final float all at the same time. We can only see one part at a time. I personally think the dragon is still in the unseen realm and won't be visible until 9/23/17. After taking astronomy 160 last semester the biggest ahha moment was understanding that what we can't "see" dominates what we can. precalculuswinch.wikispaces.com/Sound%2C+Light this example shows how little we "see" I think the dragon is hiding in plain sight, just not in a spectrum we can now see. |
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Post by gary777 on Aug 18, 2017 11:10:41 GMT -6
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Post by gary777 on Aug 18, 2017 11:40:29 GMT -6
Universe In 2013, astronomers detected phosphorus in Cassiopeia A, which confirmed that this element is produced in supernovae as a byproduct of supernova nucleosynthesis. The phosphorus-to-iron ratio in material from the supernova remnant could be up to 100 times higher than in the Milky Way in general.[29] These are breadcrumbs and not meant to be ANSWERS en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassiopeia_A In Orion the same thing can be seen just under his belt named the Orion Nebula. I also found a connection between DNA/RNA and phosphorus but am now stopping the chasing of the dragon to focus on warning as many lost souls as I can before the door closes. If you guys and gals find the dragon send me a PM and a link. God Bless your quest! |
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Post by MissusMack08 on Aug 18, 2017 12:37:38 GMT -6
Yeah I brought up the other doctrinal aspects, not to dismiss his ideas on the Dragon, which is one of the more plausible theories I've heard (though ill have to double check that timeframe), but because they really effect people. Early on in my walk I was really affected by my own inability to "walk the Christian life" and "turn from all my sins". To the point that I figured it was impossible for me, that God just didnt "choose" me, and I might as well enjoy the world while I could. The reality, I found out 20 years later, is that we don't sanctify ourselves. We are perfect in Christ because we have been credited His righteousness. After we come to faith, we are born again and from that point on, everything we do or fail to do is a matter of rewards and losses at the Bema Seat. So I was just expressing frustration at what Valles is laying on his listeners, which is that they can sanctify themselves by what amounts to following laws, rather than resting in the finished work of Jesus. I know what that does to people. So since I've spent the last 3 days going through A LOT of Daniel Valles' videos trying to pin down exactly when he starts talking about Draco and taking notes. I've come across the partial rapture theory and some other eschatological views I don't agree with, neither of which affect my appreciation of the dragon sign being Draco. What I gathered from his partial rapture theory is that he believes those who are not watching and getting ready to see Jesus won't get to see him (will be left behind). I have heard him use the phrase "sanctify yourself" but I don't believe in any of the contexts I heard it in did I think it was explicitly implying a works based salvation. I'm not saying that's not what he believes, just that that's not what I heard. But because my own bias is that I cannot sanctify myself by my own works but rather by allowing the Holy Spirit to renew, refresh, and lead me in ways of righteousness through HIS power, that maybe I just hear what he's says the way I understand "sanctify." If nothing else, he is promoting a turning away from evil deeds and keeping our heart, soul, mind, strength on Jesus and His return. I do have to admit that the verses he uses to support the "partial rapture" theory (letter to Sardis, Jesus' parable about the faithful and wicked servants while the master is away, etc) are provocative. I haven't done a study to reconcile them and disprove a partial rapture. But I totally understand the frustration with teachers promoting hopeless doctrine. My grandparents were both quite vocal members of the Church of the Nazarene (which teaches that once saved you must stop sinning. If you continue to sin or sin even once, you must be resaved, essentially). They used to tell my mom she was going to hell because she attended a Baptist church since they taught "once saved always saved." It really messed them up when I got saved and baptized in a baptist church as well, but they could tell by my life that the Holy Spirit was working in me. But, I had to do damage control many times with unsaved family members after they would say something along the lines of "you must never sin." That being said, I believe they were saved and are both in heaven right now, even though they promoted incorrect doctrine. In their life they just walked a very, very hard and yet hypocritical line. They did lots of good works. |
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Post by MissusMack08 on Aug 18, 2017 14:06:47 GMT -6
Ok. I did it. I think. Mostly. Maybe. I watched many hours of Daniel Valles' videos (he posts a roughly 30 minute video about every other day and has been since 2015, I think. There's s a lot.) and found when he really began to discuss DRACO as the "great dragon" in Rev 12. Below, I will post each video that had the most pertinent information about DRACO with the notes I took about it. I suddenly had this strange sense of urgency to get this done before Monday for some reason. I don't know if that is the Holy Spirit pressing on me to do this or some sort of unfounded anxiety about the eclipse. Remember though, I'm just relaying the information and interpretation that Daniel has presented. I do not agree with all of his interpretations or timelines. I do find his take on Draco very intriguing and to me the most likely explanation for the sign in Rev 12. The interpretation thereof is what needs to be discussed and expounded if indeed others think Draco is the sign as well. (By the way, I'm doing all this on an iPad and cannot use bolding, different colors, different size of font, or other useful formatting techniques or at least I haven't figured out how to yet, so the formatting is the best I can do. I apologize if it's difficult to follow. You can always watch the videos :-) .)
1st video: "Revelation 12 Dragon Tail Time" posted May 15, 2017:
—Rev 12:1-5, there are 2 separate signs which cover a period of time. Draw a line in verse 4 between "and did cast them to the earth" and "and the dragon stood before the woman." The line divides the 2 sequences.
—1st sequence: Before the completion of the sign of the woman, occurs while she is with child and travailing.
—2nd sequence: when the woman brings forth the man child on Sept 23rd and the sign completes.
—During 1st sequence, dragon is doing something: tail is drawing 1/3 stars and then casts them to earth. "Drew:" Greek meaning, like dragging a fishermen's net.
—Draco is in the North. Draco's star Thuban is orange in appearance.
—What did John see? Draco sweeping 120 degrees of stars. From May 20 2017 to Sept 23 2017.
—"and did cast them to the earth."
—Matt 24:29-30: "the stars shall fall from heaven"... And then shall appear the Sign of the Son of Man in heaven."
—stars will fall from heaven before sign completes; travailing occurs before sign completes; Sign of the Son of Man is sign of the woman in Rev 12.
—travailing: "for when they shall say "peace and safety" then sudden destruction comes upon them AS TRAVAIL UPON A WOMAN WITH CHILD and they shall not escape."
—we've already heard many calls for "peace and safety" ,
2rd video: "Sides of the North" posted May 18 2017:
—Ancient man knew a lot more about the heavens than modern man gives them credit for; Antikythera machine was an analog computer to discover celestial alignments built before 150 BC
—Signs in Revelation require "looking up." Signs are meant to be seen, Gen 1:14 and using the lights of the firmament.
—Disciples of Jesus were fishermen, in particular John (one of the sons of Zebedee) and they fished at night; would have used the stars for navigation and telling time; what John wrote about were things he and other fishermen would have been familiar with.
—Rev 12:1-4b: visible, observable lights in firmament occurring BEFORE sept 23 associated with time of travail.
—Signs John sees are observable, celestial sign and celestial events with symbolic overtones; the "overarching" sign is the woman getting pregnant and going through time of travail; during time of travail, another sign is occurring; both celestial events wrap up on the same day when she gives birth; both events have symbolic overtones and explains what will be acted out on earth.
GREAT RED DRAGON:
—what is a dragon in Greek? "Fabulous kind of serpent," serpent-like, snake-like. A giant serpent.
—Rev 12 refers to it both as a serpent and a dragon.
—Red: "fire-like" or "fiery" or "flame-colored", not blood red. Reddish color with orange and yellows; could be describing color of serpent or referring to its character.
—Ancient mythologies of Draco describe serpent being fought and slain with blood, so need to consider what Draco is known for as well.
—when look at Head of Draco, there are two stars: Rastaban and Eltanin that are the eyes. Long been associated as Draco's eyes. Serpent is looking the way the two eyes are facing.
—Eltanin has reddish, orange appearance (**discrepancy between Thuban and Eltanin from previous notes—missusmack08**)
—Depending on how you count the stars, Draco's head sometimes depicted with 4 or 5 stars, but there are 7 visible stars in the head.
WHAT DRACO IS DOING
—multi step process that is observable.
—1st stage: tail draws 1/3 stars of heaven; this happens by itself. "Draw" means dragging or trailing behind if.
—2nd stage: at end of dragging stars, stars will be cast to the earth just like Jesus said. Could be meteor shower which we call "falling stars"
—3rd stage: Dragon standing before woman when's she's ready to give birth on sept 23.
—visual shown of view from Jerusalem of Draco spinning in heaven over 4month period before coming to face the woman who is standing on the moon and also facing Draco on Sept 23.
WHERE IS DRACO?
—Satan, the old serpent, will be kicked out of heaven where he wants to be.
—Draco is circumpolar (meaning it never sets) and can be seen all year from Northern latitudes. Middle East always sees Draco,
—John knew the serpent-like creature; John describes it as "that old serpent"; Draco is an old constellation long associated with dragons and serpent-like creatures. He connects it with Devil and Satan.
—Where did Satan want to go? TO THE SIDES OF THE NORTH: "Thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne ABOVE the stars of God. I will sit also upon the mount of congregation in THE SIDES OF THE NORTH..."
—We should be looking for the sign of the serpent in the north, the celestial north is place associated with being "above" the stars of God; celestial North Pole; thousands of years ago Draco's star Thuban was the pole star. Draco was known as the "great dragon"
—Corona Borealis: the northern crown above draco's head; has 7 stars.
—Bootes: near to Draco's head, long associated with herdmen, cattle, and horns. Has 10 stars.
3rd Video: "Fiery Dragon" posted May 29 2017:
I've already provided a brief synopsis on this video in a previous post, not quite as detailed as I did in the above two videos. It gives more support on cultural context for Draco being the great dragon.
There were several videos posted between the three videos which go into more interpretation and timeline. Since the last video, he has posted MANY more videos and has narrowed down his timeline etc. There may be more pertinent information in those but I don't have time to go through them all. In all of his videos he links some PDF articles in the "more" section below the video about the information and his interpretations. I haven't looked thoroughly at the one title "Revelation 12 Sign" to see if it gives more detailed or pertinent information, but I believe that is where the info on Draco should be out of all the articles.
Phew! That's done. So, what do you all think?
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