The Restoration of All Things

Gotcha. I've always come to the conclusion that the rapture is grace based, but is inclusive to only those who believe in this age. For we are in Christ, however those who do not believe are not in Christ and will face great tribulation at the end of THIS age. Still have some other passages in Revelation in regards to the lake of fire and those who received the mark of the beast, but I'm sure you'll get around to that. Ok. Shutting up. Keep it common SK. 

SK, the audience here is likely much more broad than the me & Mike a the few other commenting. Coming from all areas of the spectrum including parts of the world, cultures and time in Him

As a side note which really stuck out to me as I watched this "documentary" last night. Not sure who likes football (anymore) but one of the shows I find extremely interesting on NFL Network is called "A Football Life". I record all of them and one I was looking forward to was on recently, Larry Fitzgerald. If any of you know about him then the show would further that information on him, if you dont I recommend it. In light of the Hitler/Todd example I may compare him to Todd. Larry is the nicest guy. Not sure if he's a believer or not as the show doesnt identify him that way (but the previous week did with Jim Kelly). So while watching I immediately thought of this thread/conversation "How could such a decent man with all priorities in order possibly end up in eternal torment?

Hitler was chosen -- simply because one need not Prove he was evil.
If he was saved(or too clarified, if he was ET saved) twenty seconds before death -- than -- Yes He would be watching the world from  the balcony box -- with all the other ET Saved people.
)
Just like Todd (who saved all those children and animals .... is doing a slow roast..... for failing to believe....

Is there anyone who truly deserves heaven?

Of course not,that verdict arrived long a go....

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Now the way I was raised, the Sanctification process is the training ground in today's life, where the Believer is becoming more Christ-Like.... this training ground will never be fully completed this side of heaven; however the Glorification process is what enables believers to enter into the presences of God with the incorruptible flesh.

Based off what you have stated so far; there is a Sanctification process which happens after death; where all people start the process of becoming more Christ-Like.  It that be true, then it would that the Sanctification process would need to be completed before the Glorification process could begin.  This is starting to bring on a feeling of a need for a Purgatory (as some Catholics believe) -- whereby -- those being fully restored have some type of "clean-up" before they will be fully restored.

I appreciate your sentiments here mike - but I want to caution us -

It is easy to fall for Restoration because that is what we would like to have happen.  But this would be the wrong reason to believe in the restoration of all.  We will find that we can believe in the restoration of all because the scripture teaches it!  It is who God is.

mike, the early church Fathers taught a variety of positions.  ET, Annihilation, and some form of Reconciliation have all been taught from the earliest days of the church and threads of each of these teachings continue today.  ET has become the dominant - mainly thanks to the Catholic church and the work of Augustine in The City of God.

So, if we look for support in other teachings, we can find which ever version we want.  Just like almost any part of the Christian faith.  Soon we will be looking at the scriptures that not only support restoration - but demand it.

I may need clarification on this question mike.  Are you asking what the difference is between Restoration and what kjs suggests?  If so, are you basing what kjs suggests on his post in the other thread?  Or does kjs teach something I am not aware of.  Perhaps some clarity will help me answer you in an appropriate way.

thanks!

Addressing beloved’s question:

One of the many bricks that we have put into our doctrinal walls over the years is this:

There are many passages that talk about a future division of people, or a future judgement, or a future disposition of individuals.

We tend to lump these all into one division, one judgment, one disposition. Just like we do with the word salvation.  What we don’t do, is really look at the criteria or apparent contradictions created when we do this. We tend to just dismiss these confusing parts as if they don’t really exist.  This causes us to end up with a hell that kills the soul, burns everything, makes people thirsty, makes them weep and gnash their teeth, causes them to be in darkness, makes their smoke go up forever (even if they area already dead), etc.  But not all these passages are talking about "hell" at all.

So can the verses brought up by beloved be used to justify ET? Remembering that the we defined ET at the beginning of the thread, I will bring it back here to refresh our memory:



So now, let’s check the Matt 7 passage. Does it teach ET?

Matthew 7:13-14"Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."

We will try to place the informative parts of the passage to fill out our conditions that would meet ET:

Who: many people
Why: they entered the wrong gate (specifically, the gate of the easy way)
Where: NA
What: way that leads to destruction (this is a form of Apollymi - your hammer)
When: NA
How long: NA

So this passage does not teach ET. It does teach that many will find destruction and few will find life. But it does specify what that destruction is and it does not specify when it will be or how long it will last.  It also does not mention anything about a time limit for entering into the correct gate. It also seems to imply that the entering of the gate is based on how easy the path is, which is a works based decision - not a faith based one.  

We have lumped this passage it into our hunk of stuff we think teaches ET. But we have just shown, that it does not support ET. When we start to do this, passage by passage throughout scripture, we will begin to find, ET simply isn’t taught in the bible. That should be a shocking statement - It is one thing say that we can choose between two ideas that are both taught in scripture.  If ET is not even in scripture - then why do we continue to teach it?  More not that cynical topic later.

Now, lets look at the other passage beloved mentioned:

Luke 13 22-30 "He went on his way through towns and villages, teaching and journeying toward Jerusalem. And someone said to him, "Lord, will those who are saved be few?" And he said to them, "Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, open to us,' then he will answer you, 'I do not know where you come from.' Then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.' But he will say, 'I tell you, I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of evil!' In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out. And people will come from east and west, and from north and south, and recline at table in the kingdom of God. And behold, some are last who will be first, and some are first who will be last."

Once again, we will try to place the informative parts of the passage to fill out our conditions that would meet ET:

Who: people - even some who seek and knock
Why: they worked iniquity
Where: Outside the Kingdom of God
What: weeping and gnashing of teeth
When: when they see the fathers reclining in the kingdom
How long: NA - but with some indication it is not endless (due to the first / last concept)

So once again, this passage does not teach ET. It does teach that people may find themselves too late to seek and knock and have the door be opened. But what door? The door to the kingdom of God. Is this permanent? It does not seem so, because it discusses the first being last and last being first. This may just be a timing issue.  So some may not enter when they want, but perhaps they do so "last". Also, once again, what is the condition for them not making it? Was it because they did not believe? No, it was because they worked iniquity. This would be works based salvation if this was talking about HeavenSaved salvation.  Instead of seeing this as supporting ET - We should actually be quite grateful that it is not! Else, we may all be condemned to that fate.

Also, to add one more similar verse:

Mat 19:24  And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Mat 19:25  When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

So now, we would need to exclude Rich people from being saved as well. Right?

Accept for this:

Mat 19:26  But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.


Then we see this:

Mat 7:7  Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8  For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

and compare that to the verses given above

Luk 13:24  Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
Luk 13:25  When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

How can both of these sets of verses be true? Either knocking and seeking works, or it doesn't.  Is the bible wrong?  Here we go again!  NO.  But it does contradict if our understanding is not in line with God's plan. Timing is everything.  A story that talks about one moment in the plan of God does not need to give the end result.  It is only talking about one moment.

I believe this applies again:

Mat 19:26  But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.


Now, if we have spiritual and intellectual integrity - we cannot use these verses to prove ET.  They also do not prove Restoration. But then, we are not making that claim. We are making the claim that these verses do NOT teach ET. Nor, by the way do they teach Annihilation. Dead people don’t weepand gnash teeth.  Dead people can't see the prophets reclining in the kingdom.

I will say, that this division does support some concepts with Restoration and I will get into those far down the line.  And I should admit that the first “path of destruction” does not outright deny annihilation. But then it would be annihilation based on bad choices and taking the easy way out. Faith based Christianity does not teach that.

Hopefully that helps.