karen
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Post by karen on Nov 17, 2017 21:29:45 GMT -6
Started reading the verses, battery on phone going dead...folks don't rush through these "chew the cud" Great advice Mike, very thought provoking verses, however, @silentknight has served us up such a very generous platter of food, that we may never get to the last couple of bites!!  |
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Post by MikeTaft on Nov 18, 2017 11:38:35 GMT -6
Between reflecting at my own idols and how ignorant I have been about our Holy Father...is restoration really that simple?...I'm in some deeeep thought here...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2017 13:26:47 GMT -6
It is simple MikeTaft. But much more to come! I appreciate you taking the time to hear. |
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Post by mike on Nov 18, 2017 14:01:18 GMT -6
MikeTaft I have similar thoughts about how simple this sounds. Also how our concept of a loving Father has been twisted. Thank you SK for providing this info for us to chew on.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2017 15:51:06 GMT -6
I will now start a series of small posts each dealing with a different facet of scripture and God’s character that insist on restoration. I don’t know a good order for these, so I’ll just start knocking them out. Some will be more convincing than others and will speak differently to each reader.
Every Knee
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
This verse is popular to quote, but how closely have we looked at it? Typically, because of our conditioned belief that God will torment people forever or kill them, and because we know that not everyone has believed in the work of Christ, when we hear that every knee will bow, we assume that this must, in some way, be a forced bow.
We assume that some may bow out of reference, but others are bowing out of force. But if we look at the context of the verse, it really doesn’t say that. The verse is in the middle of a chapter about being humble and not self-righteous. We should have the same mind as Christ who was willing to humble himself to the point of being killed on a cross. And because of this, God will lift Him high. So high that,
Every knee will bow….
Another assumption often expressed is that, perhaps this every knee does not count as every knee, but only every knee within a smaller group of knees. Maybe this is only every believing knee.
Once again, there is nothing in the context of this passage what would allow us to proclaim that. As a matter of fact, the passage seems to spell it out pretty clearly -
every knee … in heaven, in earth, under the earth.
But how does Paul know that every knee will bow? He is quoting a passage from Isaiah. Let’s see if that passage offers any clarity on who is bowing, and why.
Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Isa 45:24 Surely, shall say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
So God commanded that all the ends of the earth aught to look to God and be saved and that every knee will bow and every tongue swear that “in the Lord have I righteousness and strength.”
These people are not kneeling out of force - they are kneeling in humility and recognizing the righteousness they have in the Lord.
Going back to Paul, he also adds that every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord, but we know that:
1 Co 12:3 …. No man can say that Jesus is the Lord but by the Holy Ghost.
So the full understanding of these combined passages is that every knee will bow to Christ and that every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord and that in him they have righteousness and strength. And that this proclamation can only be done by the Holy Spirit.
We know this will happen because God says, “I have sworn an oath” and promises His word will be true.
A few (of the many) other passages that clarify the universal nature of this all:
Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I will give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Jhn 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
Jhn 7:2 Thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me, shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in nowise cast out..
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Jhn 4:34 My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.
Eze 23:11 As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked.
Rev 4:11 Thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
Eph 1:9-10 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure, which he hath purposed in himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of times, he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth, even in him.
Gen 49:10 Unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
Jhn 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Mat 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. (The many here being equal and a logical argument representing all. We agree that the disobedience of Adam made all men sinners, so it follows logically that the second many also represents all. I will cover this more in a section just for this passage. But also, we don’t need to guess, because Paul spells it out in Rom 5:18 and 1 Cor 15:22.)
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Please take the time to actually read these verses listed. Don't just gloss over them. Also, hopefully you are continuing to go through the scriptures provided last week.
We will be covering the Romans 5 and 1 Cor 15 passages in more detail in a future post.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2017 11:39:59 GMT -6
The Incongruity of God
Note: It should be noted that anytime we reach an area that begins to attach motive to acts of God - or that speaks of the rightness or wrongness of His actions, we invariably hear the argument that God’s ways are higher than our ways, God works in mysterious ways, and we can’t possibly understand, in our finite minds, the ways of God. I dismiss that notion out of hand. His ways are higher than our ways, but he also gives us a clear picture of who he is. He also created us in his image. He asks us to come and reason with him. He has given us a massive amount of writing (the bible) describing him and his ways. So, although we can’t understand everything, we also can’t expect God to be the very opposite of what he teaches us to be. We can’t expect His law to point to someone other than Him. We can’t dismiss our ability to apply our understanding of His justice and mercy to Him. Furthermore, since His ways are above our ways, we should be able to expect that our ways should not be higher than His!
ET or Annihilation present a God that is incongruous with the God we claim to worship. Let us take three of His most vaunted characteristics that we claim we believe about God.
1. God is Good
2. God is Omniscient
3. God is Omnipotent
The second and third don’t need much clarification and I don’t believe I have come across many Christians who do not, as simple fact, believe these two points. There are some that would claim that God does not know everything that will happen in the future. That His omniscience is limited to the present and the past. I don’t see that as a scriptural view of God and therefore will not really be dealing with this argument. If this becomes a dominant reason to disregard this section, then perhaps I will come back to it.
Act 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
Psa 147:5 Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.
Job 36:4 For truly my words shall not be false: he that is perfect in knowledge is with thee.
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
The first point, however, needs some definition. What do we mean when we say God is Good. For me, it is a combination of His sinlessness, His Holiness(perfect mercy and perfect justice), and His love. I will use these verses to further define goodness.
Luk 6: 27, 28, 35, 36 Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. But love you your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again, and your reward shall be great, and you shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Be you therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
Mat 5: 44-48 Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you, that you may be the children of your Father who is in heaven, for he makes his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just, and on the unjust. For if you love them which love you, what reward have you? do not even the publicans the same? And if you salute your brethren only, what do you more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be you therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Lev 19: 2 You shall be holy for I the Lord your God am holy.
Rev 4: 8 Holy, holy, holy Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
Psa 145: 9 The Lord is good to all, and his tender mercies are over all his works.
Psa 107: 1 His mercy endures forever.
Deu 32: 4 A God of truth, and without iniquity, just and right is he.
Isa 45: 21 A just God and savior.
1Jn 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1Jn 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
1 Co 13 Definition of love
Mat 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
ET and Annihilation have a common fault: They both teach that God is not all three of these things. Typically the trait they sacrifice is either Goodness or Omnipotence or both. Restoration, on the other hand, maintains all three as traits of God.
Perhaps God is not Good
If God were not good, then we could easily perceive of him creating beings that he intended to later destroy or endlessly torment. Since we know that he knows the end from the beginning, he would have to know that sinners would suffer these fates. But he doesn’t care, because he is not Good. Since he has the power to stop their suffering or destruction, since he knows they will suffer, the only option is to see that he is not Good.
Now some will put forth this argument: God is so good that he will not force anyone to be in his presence if they choose not to be. He is so good that he allows us free will to decide to not believe in Him and therefore we can literally choose to be tortured forever.
The proponents of this argument must also agree with this scenario:
A three year old boy was being watched by a babysitter. The boy asks the babysitter for some ice cream and the babysitter said, sure. The boy then saw the bottle of bleach on the counter and asked to have that poured on his ice cream. The babysitter said, it will hurt you. The boy said, I don’t care. I want it. The babysitter said, Ok and poured the bleach all over the ice cream. Then the boy informed the babysitter that he was going to go play in the street without his shoes on, in the middle of winter. And since the babysitter was so Good, she said, Well I can’t stop you so, and I want you to have the freedom to do what you want so go for it. Oh, and by the way, here are some matches and gasoline you can play with if you want - but I warn you, they might hurt you.
None of us would think that babysitter is Good. But we somehow believe that an infinitely wise and powerful being is suppose to let us, in our finite understanding, make a decision that will effect all of our eternity? And we call that Good? Now let’s put the icing on the cake. Our babysitter warned our child and the babysitter let it be the choice of the child - still not Good. But God doesn’t even do that:
Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
This story is repeated in Mark and Luke as well.
1Co 12:3 ... and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
Exodus - how many time did the Lord harden Pharaoh’s heart?
Now we see that our, Good God, intentionally confuses the truth so that some cannot believe and cannot be healed. God is so Good that he hides the truth from some, hardens the hearts of others, prevents understanding and belief from others and then holds them accountable by torturing them forever or simply annihilating them.
But let’s say that the ET and Annihilation folks don’t agree with me about what is Good. So they say God is still good because he knew that those people would not choose him even if he revealed himself to them. Therefore, it is not about God’s goodness.
Well, if once again - God knows all things and can accomplish all things and therefore knew that this person would reject Christ and therefore be destroyed or tormented forever - why did this Good God create them in the first place? Isn’t that even worse? Knowing this person would be tormented forever, why did God allow this person to be born? Just so they could live a miserable life for 25 years and then die having never heard the name of Jesus. Now they just fuel the fires of Hell for their ignorance and something that Adam did 6000 years ago?
His ways are above our ways - so why do we lower him to our standards? He says:
Mat 5:44-48 Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you, that you may be the children of your Father who is in heaven, for he makes his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just, and on the unjust. For if you love them which love you, what reward have you? do not even the publicans the same? And if you salute your brethren only, what do you more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be you therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
So If I am to be perfect as my Father is perfect, and if he allows people that disagree with him (or don’t even know about him) to be destroyed or tormented forever. Then shouldn’t I begin treating my enemies this way? If I am commanded to follow in His footsteps, shouldn’t I not tell people about Jesus because they might hear and believe and be healed?
Something is wrong with this picture.
Do we believe that God is “not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
If we do, then we can believe He is Good, but not Smart enough to figure out that his plan won’t work. If we think he is Good enough and Smart enough, then we must believe that he is not Powerful enough to resist the will of Man or Satan.
So which is it? Is He not Good? Not Omniscient? Or Not Omnipotent?
Usually this is where someone will say, He is all three - but He gives us free will. To which I reply: What makes us think we have free will and why is it so important to us that we do? And once again, if God is Good, why give us free will and then not give us the information necessary to make the right choice? I will cover free will in a future post. Furthermore, making the free will argument basically says that God is not omnipotent since he is not capable of accomplishing his will. Or it makes the case that God is not Smart enough because he didn't know the person would not choose him. Or it makes the God is not Good enough because, having the power to avoid torturing this person and having the knowledge that He would have to torture Him, He created him anyway.
How does Restoration deal with this?
He is all three. This will be partially dealt with in Romans 9, but only in the context of Romans 3:1 - 12:1. But I will save that for later. A quick answer here is that there are vessels of dishonor in this life but they are used to accomplish the greater goal of a Very Good God: the salvation of all. This timeframe is so short in comparison to eternity and, because He is Just and Merciful, what appears as a short term injustice in this lifetime will be made right in the next. ET and Annihilation do not have the ability of making things right in the ages to come. Furthermore, God uses blindness as a shelter. Also, the law states that when a master blinds the eye of his servant, the servant is to be set free. God follows His law. I will cover this more in the future.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2017 13:44:16 GMT -6
Free Will
I’m going to do a quick post on free will. I find it almost amusing how important this point is to some people. And I’m afraid that for many, the ability to attach some work, no matter how minor, to the reason they were selected and someone else was not is the driver behind free will. This is not true of everyone, but I will say, it seems to be true more often than not.
Part of the reason I say this is because it is fairly obvious that free will is a myth. It is very clear throughout scripture who is in charge and who will get their way.
Cute, right? No. It is deplorable. The idea that each of us have an equal say in what God will do. Let me ask you, why would a perfect being, who is righteous and holy, who has all knowledge and who has all power ever give anything of his authority to the father of lies or corruptible man. Is it Man or Satan that should instruct God? Can Man determine the quality or extent of God's goodness?
A reading through Job 38-42 would be edifying here. God has never and will never subject his actions or lack of actions to the will of Man of Satan.
Job 40:2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.
Job's answer to God is this:
Job 42:2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
Job 42:3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
Job 42:4 Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
Job 42:5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
Job 42:6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.
Job says, I had heard about God and thought I knew him. But Now I really see Him. Now I know Him. And I am nothing.
The Garden:
The concept of free will is often attempted to be proven by the Garden of Eden events - but they actually prove the opposite. Let’s lay it out:
God created a Garden. God put trees in the Garden. Two are of interest to us. The tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil(TOKGE) and the tree of Life(TOL). God put Adam and Eve in the garden and told them - don’t eat of the fruit from TOKGE.
Now the fact that God did not stop Adam and Eve from eating from this tree is used by many to demonstrate that Adam and Eve were given free will. They then use this to extrapolate that all humanity has free will.
Here is the problem - Once the kids ate from TOKGE, God stepped in and stopped their ability to eat of the TOL even though He knew that is what they would want to do.
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
So if we are being consistent - Adam and Eve had free will to eat of one tree (the one God's plan needed them to eat from), but not the other tree (the one God's plan needed them not to eat from). So they only had free will within the confines of what God’s will allowed. So much so that, when Adam and Eve weren’t eating from TOKGE, God allowed Satan to tempt them so that they would be more likely to eat.
If God really wanted man to have absolute free will - He would not have stopped them from eating of the TOL. And think about this - God allowed them the free will to ruin their life - but did not allow them the free will to have life. Wow, wow, wow wow, wow! Why is that? Because it is the same pattern throughout scripture and is the Gospel of Peace right from the start - you cannot DO anything, you cannot DECIDE anything to save your own life. Only the one that hangs on the tree can provide life and it is not your choice to receive or deny it. It will be given to you when the time is right. You do not have the ability to decide something outside of what God wants.
Now, God does stay his desire in order to accomplish his will. It would have been preferred of God for Adam and Eve not to eat of TOKGE - not to disobey God, but it was the will of God that they do so in order to accomplish the rest of his plan.
But we see this over and over in almost every biblical story. God doing what he wants when he wants and man having to deal with it and Satan having to ask permission.
The tower of Babel:
Gen 11:4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
Gen 11:5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
Gen 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
Gen 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
Gen 11:8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.
Gen 11:9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.
Did the people have free will to make a tower? No. God stopped their progress, confused their language, and scattered them abroad upon the face of the earth. Why? “Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.”
Because God did not want them to be able to do what they wanted to do. This is not free will.
Enemies of Israel:
Think about all the enemies of Israel that were destroyed by God: Egypt, Jericho, the Mideons, etc. Destroyed by God himself, or his angels, or the Israelites through miracles (including the sun and moon standing still in the sky) were destroyed - against their will. What was the problem? God’s will was more powerful then the enemies of Israel's will. These are people acting in their desire to accomplish something who were stymied by God.
Sodom and Gomorra:
These people were destroyed without even a warning. They were not given the choice to repent and come out with Lot. The cities were destroyed - against the will of the people.
The flood:
Not even the righteous people could choose what they wanted here - the earth was going to be destroyed. Period. And there is no evidence that God would have allowed any to come onto the ark accept for the ones He selected. None, from that generation, could stop what was happening. None could express their free will to not die in a flood.
People today:
What about those who, through no choice of their own, are born into other religions or other countries that may never hear the name of Jesus. Was that their free will that did that? How can they even choose Jesus?
Think even of yourself, today - do you really have free will? Can you decide to jump to the moon? Can you decide to buy a leer jet? Can you decide to conquer another country? Can you even decide to convert people to believe in Jesus? Can you heal whomever you want? Can you solve the problems of crime and corruption? Can you even resist temptation? Can you hold your tongue?
I could go on an on and on.
After all this, we want to believe that it is somehow within our ability to choose to believe in Jesus or not believe in Jesus. But,
Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
1Co 12:3 …. no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
So who’s will is it whether or not you believe? And even if we somehow think we can make a choice, do we really understand the consequences?
I mean even Jesus’ will was second to the Father.
Luk 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
It was not the Father’s will - and therefore - Jesus died on the cross.
So what is my point -
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Is God Not Good? Of course, He Is!
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
God does what he wants, not based on our will or our effort.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
It is based on His Glory and purpose.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Who can resist His will? Answer - no one. And no one can decide who He will have mercy on and who He will not.
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
How dare we challenge the Goodness of God, or claim that we know better, for God is willing to show his wrath upon some in order to have mercy upon us all.
or, put another way,
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
We see here that blindness was given to vessels of dishonor so that God, concluding them in unbelief, might have mercy upon all.
Once again - I strongly encourage you to sit down, set aside some time, and read Romans 3:1 - 12:2.
When you apply the hammer and chisel and read through these chapters you will find a message all in one section of scripture that shows how God will get what he wants and that includes having mercy upon all. How he blinded his servant Israel in order to bring redemption to all. And then you will see Paul, with all this understanding, given to him by Jesus in the 3rd heaven break down in absolute praise as he writes unto paper the most magnificent Gospel that could be told:
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
Rom 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
And what can we do about it? He tells us in the first two verses of chapter 12,
Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Our reasonable service, considering what he HAS DONE for us - not what we decided or did for ourselves, is to present our bodies as living sacrifices. And to allow our minds to be transformed to Him - (through our pentecost experience) to PROVE what is the Good, Acceptable, and Perfect WILL of God.
I will likely do a commentary on Romans 3-12:2 When I get a chance. But this passage will bless you now and you can read through it in a couple hours.
So where does that leave our free will? We have small choices we can make within the framework that God allows. That is as much freedom as we have. And those choices are limited by our knowledge (which God controls) and our resources(which God places in our hands). We do get to make some decisions. We do get to act certain ways at certain times. We do not get to pick who goes to heaven and who does not - not even ourselves. That is in the hands of God. And thank Goodness for that!
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Post by MikeTaft on Nov 22, 2017 7:50:47 GMT -6
Last night as I was leading our men's bible study in a discussion on Rev. 8, I brought into the discussion by asking can God's grace extend beyond the Great Tribulation and Millennial Reign of Christ. I brought up the points you've shown about ET and Restoration and surprisingly the guys were more receptive to it than I thought they would be.
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Post by kjs on Nov 22, 2017 9:40:28 GMT -6
SK:
If I hear what you are saying correctly ....
There is no such thing as free will, because "God's will" will supersede everything in the end.
While I think I can agree with "God's Will" eventually superseding all the other wills ... I do not think that says there is no "Human Free will".
Just because God can get everything to work out according to His Will -- does not mean our Free Will is shorted.
(And because I do not intend to make this a long post ... I will use only highlights (summary) rather than details.....)
Can we at least agree that Human Free Will is the overall cause for suffering? Note: if you say no -- than you are saying God causes suffering.
Let's take a recent story....
It appears some parents had a challenging child at home, and they decided the the appropriate punishment for this child was to deny them food every time the child misbehaved. In the end, the child ended up dying from malnutrition because of the punishments imposed upon them.
The Child Had "Free Will" -- based upon his behavior -- His Parents used their Free Will to punish said behavior ... That punishment lead to the loss of life for the child.
God's will -- His overall will allowed all to take place as described --
But do you still expect us to believe that a loving God would allow such suffering of a child to the point of death -- because He allowed the parents to operate their own free will -- to extract that type of punishment?
And I will not even get started on the intersex kids coming into this world (roughly 1 in 1000 births) -- where they (the kid) is either -- neither Male , nor Female OR they are both sexes at the same time......
Or the Kids born without limbs.....
Or born without eyesight......
Sure you can see where I am going with this.......
Yes, in the END -- it all will play out as God's will says it will play out..........
BUT that does not mean the Human Free Will did not play out as well............
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2017 10:08:19 GMT -6
Love your enemies
Luk 6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
Luk 6:28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
Luk 6:29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.
Luk 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
Luk 6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
Luk 6:32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
Luk 6:33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
Luk 6:34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
Luk 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
Luk 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Mat 5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
Mat 5:41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
Mat 5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
We have covered this topic a bit in The Incongruity of God post, but I think the point bears it’s own post.
If we read the two famous passages above we see a character described and instructed of us. Let’s take some time to point out some elements:
1. Love your enemies
2. Do good to them that hate you
3. Bless them that curse you
4. Do what you would want others to do for you
5. It is no big deal to love those that love you - even sinners do that
6. It is no big deal to be good to those that are good to you - even sinners do that
7. Lend expecting nothing in return
8. Do all these things - hoping for nothing
9. God is kind unto the unthankful and unto the evil
10. Be merciful just like the Father
11. Turn the other cheek
12. Be perfect as the Father is perfect
If we truly look at this list, we need to do a lot of excusing in order to justify ET. These are instructions from Jesus, who was intimate with the Father, and was God.
Possible excuses:
1. This only applies to us, not to God
Response: He is not only telling us to act this way - he is saying do this, because this is what the Father is like. He is telling us to act like the Father.
2. He is telling us to be this way now, but it will not always be this way
Response: These aren’t random instructions, they are instructions to be like the one who never changes.
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Heb 1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
Psa 102:26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
Psa 102:27 But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.
Lam 3:22 The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; his mercies never come to an end;
Lam 3:23 they are new every morning; great is your faithfulness.
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
3. Sinners are not the enemy of God so he does not have to love them
Response: This is silly on the surface because surely if He loves His enemies He also loves his non-enemies. But just to make the point:
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
4. Even though He loves his enemies, He shows this love by letting them do what they want (free will)
Response: We pretty much covered this one in the post on Free Will.
5. Even though He loves his enemies, He cannot abide sin so he must endless torment them or annihilate them
Response: Actually God shows His love by chastising and correcting those that he loves. Also, God blesses people by turning them from their sin.
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Act 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
I don’t think I need to go on here. The message is pretty clear. But there is a challenge that could be made that I have not listed.
6. What about justice? If a wrong is committed by Tom against Barb, how can Barb be shown the love of God if God simply forgives Tom’s Crime?
Response: Now this is a good question and we will have a whole section on why ET prevents justice from occurring by simply torturing or destroying Tom. Restoration, on the other hand, allows for Tom to be perfected, while at the same time, pay back to Barb the wrongs committed against her. Now this is advanced restoration and I will not cover it quite yet. But I mention it because some think I only support Restoration because I am soft on sin or only have praise for God’s mercy. But this is not the case. Only through restoration can Tom and Barb both be loved. Only through restoration can Tom and Barb both experience true mercy and true justice. There is a reason we call it Restoration.
Ecc 3:11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2017 10:41:28 GMT -6
kjs , I do concede to your point, but only to a point. In my original post on Free Will I say this toward the end (I have added some bolding to draw attention): God has allowed us to express our will - but not completely. So perhaps the problem is with the word "Free." Which, in my mind, implies unlimited will. In the cases you listed in your response, God did not step in and do anything about it. Other stories highlight where God (or sometimes an angel) has actually prevented an event from taking place. So one event was within the framework of what God allowed and the other events were not. We also hear all the time of how circumstances aligned for a person to pay off their debt or was healed. While at the same time we hear of other's who could never get ahead and another who did not receiving healing. Some die in tornadoes or earthquakes, others are murdered. While some escape the falling building that trapped their friend. Still others are the only survivor of a plane crash. Tragedy is all around us. What causes it? Is it pure chance? Is it us? Is it the devil? Is it God? Inevitably we begin to talk about the difference between what God causes and what He allows, but in the end, according to His law, the buck stops at Him. God created us and is in charge of everything: Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
You say: If God is a loving God, then is not the only correct answer to this question - Yes, a loving God would allow such suffering of a child to the point of death. It happened, so by definition, God allowed it. If you are taking the position that God did not "allow" it, but that it happened "against His will" based on the free choices of the child and the parents, this is where we may be at a difference. There is a difference between God's desire and God's plan. Both are often translated as "will" in scripture but are represented by two different greek words. In the case of this child, certainly God did not desire the suffering of the child or the sin of the parents. Certainly, as well, He had the authority to stop it. But this is where Romans 9 comes in: Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
In your example, we have some vessels of dishonor being used for some purpose that we do not fully understand that work within the plan of God - even if the process is painful to us and to Him. He has allowed them to operate against His desire in order to accomplish His plan. It is their choice to act as they do because God has allowed them, in this case, to carry out their tragic work. In the end - as hard as it is to hear - I do give God the credit and responsibility for all that happens in His creation. I could not worship a God that was not in charge of everything and still claimed to be Loving, Omniscient, and Omnipotent. This is also a supporting reason for Restoration - He must make things right. It is His law (I'll be getting into this in a future post). And truly, is it not more comforting to think that God was in control of the child's situation, then that man or satan were in control? We give credit to God for every little good thing that happens and remove all responsibility from Him for any bad. God is in charge of it all - and, through Restoration, He will make it all right in the end. It should also be noted, that the story you bring up is a perfect example of John 3 being played out. This family was not believing in Him and as result, they were walking in darkness and death. They are perishing right here on this earth. They are not walking in Life during this age. Obviously - though I don't phrase my sentences such - I am expressing my opinion. And I've been wrong twice this year already, so... 
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2017 11:50:29 GMT -6
Last night as I was leading our men's bible study in a discussion on Rev. 8, I brought into the discussion by asking can God's grace extend beyond the Great Tribulation and Millennial Reign of Christ. I brought up the points you've shown about ET and Restoration and surprisingly the guys were more receptive to it than I thought they would be. This is awesome miketaft! I do believe that God is opening hearts as the time comes for this message to go out. In my experience over the last 16 years, I have taught Restoration to small groups of people and about 2 in 5 seemed to respond positively to it, with 1 in 5 now teaching it to others. But I have only been lead to do this about 5 times. However, now I feel the leading to open it up to a much larger audience which is why I began to post here on unsealed. Honestly, I had been praying that the Lord would provide an audience if it be His will to share. My interpretation of the rules of this forum prevented me from sharing these thoughts. However, shortly after I asked for an audience, kjs posted his response to watchman35 and that led to the conversation which opened the door for me. I believe it is time .... I also think that is the reason we are seeing such a movement toward universalism and Interfaithism. Satan always has a counterfeit to draw people away from the truth. |
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Post by kjs on Nov 22, 2017 12:14:12 GMT -6
SK:
Really think we are saying pretty much the same thing....
I simply disagree with the statement -- there is NO Free Will.....
I am saying there is Free Will by Humans, but Somehow when it is all said and done with -- It was God's overall will as well.
When it comes to salvation aspect -- I know beyond a shadow of doubt it is ALL GOD and NONE of ME.....
The drawing of the individual, the converting of the individual, the growing of the individual --- is ALL GOD / HOLY Spirit / Jesus -- and none of us --- even though "TALK WISE" we use terms like "accept Jesus" "Ask Jesus in our Heart" .... in reality it was never of us......
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2017 12:28:52 GMT -6
Yeah kjs, I think we're on the same page. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2017 14:03:26 GMT -6
The Two Adams
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
With this post, I will explain the basic logic of Restoration as simply as I can.
When God created Adam and put him into the Garden, He gave him authority over the things of the earth. He then gave Adam a wife and children.
In God’s economy, sin is considered a debt.
Mat 6:12 Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
Luk 11:4 Forgive us our SINS; for we also forgive every one that is INDEBTED to us.
When Adam sinned, He incurred a debt He could not pay. Adam’s debt was to sin and death and thus sin and death held his debt note. This debt passed onto all that he had authority over: his wife, his children, and all creation.
Mat 18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
Mat 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
Those born of Adam inherited his debt. This is why all creation is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God.
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
But Adam’s sin does not absolve God from His obligation to His law (His character):
Exo 21:33 And if a man shall open a pit, or if a man shall dig a pit, and not cover it, and an ox or an ass fall therein;
Exo 21:34 The owner of the pit shall make it good, and give money unto the owner of them; and the dead beast shall be his.
God built a garden and placed Adam and a tree in the garden. The tree was the pit. Adam was warned not to eat, but God did not build a fence around the “pit” or cover it up and prevent access. So the owner of the pit is liable for the death of the ox and in this case, the owner of the “pit” is God, and the dead ox is Adam and all creation. So the law says the owner must pay for the dead ox.
So from the beginning, God planned on Adam to fall and planned on paying the price. God even went further by providing a tempter to lead Adam to sin and by allowing the tempter to access the garden and Adam. God could have prevented all of this. Instead, it all happened according to the plan of God who now was under obligation to buy the ox - and thereby pay for Adam’s debt.
Furthermore, the one who is really liable is the one who has full knowledge and full authority:
Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
By His own law, the only way for God to clear His liability is to undo the result of the work of Adam. Along came a kinsman redeemer who could pay Adams’s debt, Jesus Christ.
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
It is the lawful right of a kinsman to redeem if he is willing to pay the full price. Jesus came as a human so that he could be a kinsman to all human flesh. He is the second Adam and paid the full debt of Adam and those that are in Adam - everyone. This is why John says,
1 Jhn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
And why Paul says,
1 Ti 4:10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
This caused us all to become bond-servants of God.
Rom 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Since all fell, all belong to God. He owns the entire dead ox.
Rom 5:18 So then as through one transgression [Adam’s sin] there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of [Christ’s] righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
Rom 5:19 For as through one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
Now we know that
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
And that Ultimately, every knee will bow to the glory of God, for God has vowed:
Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by Myself; the word has gone from My mouth in righteousness and will not turn back, that to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
Isaiah 45:24 They will say of Me, “Only in the Lord are righteousness and strength.” Men will come to Him, and all who were angry at Him shall be put to shame.
It is clearly not done yet, even though he has paid the price for our redemption, we are not yet all in all in him.
Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
But we know that it shall happen because:
Romans 11:32 For God has shut up all in disobedience that He might show mercy to all.
Paul confirms there is a process here:
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
AS in Adam ALL die - We agree this is everyone
SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive. - Integrity toward logic, language, and scripture shows this also is everyone
But it does not all happen at the same time - or even in the same age.
BUT each in his own order:
* Christ the Firstfruit;
* Then they that are Christ's at His coming;
* Then cometh the end [order], WHEN He shall deliver up the kingdom
Christ will accomplish His word until he is able to deliver, back to the Father, a kingdom in which all rule and all authority and power and been abolished. And the final enemy he will abolish is death.
There is no endless torment, because there is no more enemy. All are one with Christ. All are All in All in God.
There is no annihilation, because it would be no victory to use Death to annihilate billions and then turn around and abolish death and claim victory. No - Christ abolishes death, because all are in life.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
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