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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jan 15, 2018 15:03:44 GMT -6
My apologies for having bsg all over the place so much. It is primarily due to 2 things: winter I am in the house more, and 2 this forum has been such a great gigantic Bible study that I tend to learn more here than anywhere else and am hyperactive on participating. I know not all are following all threads. I mean, we each have our own topics of intrigue. And there are those who perhaps respect all here but have serious disagreements about interpretation with specific folks based on past threads and conversations. Some just know where one stands on an issue before even reading the post... Even so, in the Restoration thread I was challenged about who the 144,000 witnesses are in Revelation. Since it is a specific topic, and would be "off-topic" in a sense from the thread I thought it best to bring it out of there to another location. This came up in conversation in the Restoration thread: |
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Post by Natalie on Jan 15, 2018 16:17:06 GMT -6
I think it was kjs that had posted about the order that the tribes are in and what the names mean. It's pretty neat. Nothing is in the Bible by accident. I'll look it up soon if he doesn't come along and post. (If it wasn't you, kjs, maybe someone can correct me.) |
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Post by Natalie on Jan 15, 2018 16:27:57 GMT -6
I found it: unsealed.boards.net/post/13302/threadHere is some interesting commentary of Rev. 7 5 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed, Judah 12,000 from the tribe of Reuben, Reuben 12,000 from the tribe of Gad, Gad 6 12,000 from the tribe of Asher, Asher 12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali, Naphtali, 12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh, 7 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon, Simeon, 12,000 from the tribe of Levi, Levi 12,000 from the tribe of Issachar, Issachar 8 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun, Zebulun 12,000 from the tribe of Joseph, and Joseph 12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed. Benjamin In Jewish hermeneutics (Scripture interpretation), a remez is a hidden message or a deeper meaning that is below the surface or behind the words.Judah: Praise the Lord, Reuben: He has looked on my affliction Gad: good fortune comes Asher: happy and blessed am I Napthali: my wrestling Manasseh: has made me forget my sorrow Simeon: God hears me Levi: has joined me Issachar: rewarded me Zebulun: exalted me Joseph: adding to me Benjamin: the Son of His right hand. Please notice IF these twelve tribes were listed in any other order -- or if DAN or Ephraim -- were included
Then this particular message would never have been writtenPraise the Lord. He has looked on my affliction [and] good fortune comes. Happy and blessed am I. My wrestling has made me forget my sorrow. God hears me, has joined me, rewarded me, exalted me [by] adding to me the Son of His right hand. |
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Post by kjs on Jan 16, 2018 9:15:11 GMT -6
Natalie, thanks for finding the post and adding it here....
I do not claim to understand God, let alone explain what various passages really mean.....
But I have notice when someone attempts to extract some complicated meaning from a particular passage -- it generally seems to fall "flat" or "misguided" to my point of view.
The case of the 144K - seems to be rather straight forward in my view -- we are told specifically the 144k are male virgins from particular tribes (or 12k from each of the identified tribes.... and no it does not bother me that particular tribes appear missing both in the lists and in the current genealogy.... God is powerful enough to raise these individuals from the past IF -- that would be needful.
The point is -- they are identified as such -- and God's will we see it through, though we with our limited human sight fail to grasp how it be so.....
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Post by barb84 on Jan 16, 2018 9:17:22 GMT -6
I figure God knows genetics better than we do.
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Post by disciple4life on Jan 16, 2018 18:43:30 GMT -6
Natalie, thanks for finding the post and adding it here.... I do not claim to understand God, let alone explain what various passages really mean..... But I have notice when someone attempts to extract some complicated meaning from a particular passage -- it generally seems to fall "flat" or "misguided" to my point of view. The case of the 144K - seems to be rather straight forward in my view -- we are told specifically the 144k are male virgins from particular tribes (or 12k from each of the identified tribes.... and no it does not bother me that particular tribes appear missing both in the lists and in the current genealogy.... God is powerful enough to raise these individuals from the past IF -- that would be needful. The point is -- they are identified as such -- and God's will we see it through, though we with our limited human sight fail to grasp how it be so..... Brilliant thread, barbiosheepgirl , and this post really is amazing kjs . The special message you showed is fantastic, but the thing that really really stands out is that unlike the threads that rely on numerology and eisegesis, this is directly from the text - and this order, and these meanings would be the same whether in the Greek or English. ;-) It's not making some random guess about connecting two passages that just happen to have the same number.
This is solid interpretation -- "If the text at first seems to make literal sense, seek no other sense or it will be nonsense." This brings me to Barb's point - Barbiosheepgirl - "doesn't it go without saying that these 144,000 are the tribulation messianic Jews from modern day Israel? OR, is this part of a mystery so to speak that is very specific about the tribes listed, and these tribes are not occupying modern day Israel? " I'm not trying to argue but simply to clarify ;-) I would agree, 100% @bsg, but I understand you to mean that they are not currently Messianic Jews - [Follows of Messiah]. correct. ?? All those who know Christ - Gentile and all the Messianic Jews will be raptured. These are the Jews who accept Christ as the Messiah during the Tribulation. I think the plain reading of the text puts these missionaries in the first 3 1/2 years before the AC defiles the Temple - but I'm open to explanations as to how / why they are in the second half. :-) As kjs pointed out, the text explicitly says that they are Jews, and just in case there was any doubt, John lists the tribes of Israel. So they are not Cherokee or Apachee or Hopi, or Navajo, or Mohawks. I think trying to say they are not Jewish/ or Not Israelite is like splitting hairs whether Cherokees are actually Indians, since they're not from India. But here's the bigger point. We know they are Jews, but the amazing thing is that one of the Biblical mechanisms of missions / evangelism is scattering. We're seeing thousands of muslims come to Christ as they were scattered and now in places where they can hear the Gospel. WOW !!!! Literally millions of Jews have been dispersed throughout the world from the diaspora, WWI, WWII and the Holocaust. There is nothing anywhere in scripture that implies that these 144,000 will all be in Israel. They are 144,000 tribulation missionaries, strategically placed around the world, to preach Yeshua, after the time of Gentiles is past. Kind of like dormant seeds - to sprout at the 'moadim' - appointed time.
Remember that Jacob wrestled with the angel in the OT and his new name was Israel.  This is particularly crucial when we remember that the Tribulation is primarily for Jews - the time of Jacob's trouble - not Ryan, or Trevor's trouble. While the focus of the end times events is in Israel, there are millions of Jews scattered all across the globe - and whether they are in Israel or Atlanta doesn't make them any less or more Jewish. Israeli or Chicago, or Polish Jews, - they are not Gentile - they are part of God's everlasting covenant, and Paul said in Romans that the Gospel was revealed to Gentiles to provoke the Jews to jealousy. We are grafted in, and joint-heirs, but we have to also keep in mind that God established an everlasting covenant with Jewish people, and one of the growing false teachings of the end times is replacement theology.
I love it when J D Farag says this, about the Jewish people and then asks "You know what everlasting means, right...??"  This is another very compelling reason why many believe that the main events of the Harpazo, abomination of Desolation and the Second coming are connected with Jewish feasts, but Blood moons are also key signs to watch. I lean this way, but I seriously believe we are seeing labor pains and that we will be raptured before Feast of Trumpets. It's my humble opinion, that every prophecy has been fulfilled in order for the rapture to happen - [we just saw two in the last two months] and as the labor pains increase in frequency and intensity [J D, Farag's analogy] - that as the time nears, God will reveal some key that has been hidden up until the 'moadim' the appointed time, so that for us watchmen - "the Rapture will not surprise us like a Thief."
Even So, Come Lord Jesus Disciple4life. |
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Post by fitz on Jan 16, 2018 19:40:52 GMT -6
Natalie, thanks for finding the post and adding it here.... I do not claim to understand God, let alone explain what various passages really mean..... But I have notice when someone attempts to extract some complicated meaning from a particular passage -- it generally seems to fall "flat" or "misguided" to my point of view. The case of the 144K - seems to be rather straight forward in my view -- we are told specifically the 144k are male virgins from particular tribes (or 12k from each of the identified tribes.... and no it does not bother me that particular tribes appear missing both in the lists and in the current genealogy.... God is powerful enough to raise these individuals from the past IF -- that would be needful. The point is -- they are identified as such -- and God's will we see it through, though we with our limited human sight fail to grasp how it be so..... Brilliant thread, barbiosheepgirl , and this post really is amazing kjs . The special message you showed is fantastic, but the thing that really really stands out is that unlike the threads that rely on numerology and eisegesis, this is directly from the text - and this order, and these meanings would be the same whether in the Greek or English. ;-) It's not making some random guess about connecting two passages that just happen to have the same number.
This is solid interpretation -- "If the text at first seems to make literal sense, seek no other sense or it will be nonsense." This brings me to Barb's point - Barbiosheepgirl - "doesn't it go without saying that these 144,000 are the tribulation messianic Jews from modern day Israel? OR, is this part of a mystery so to speak that is very specific about the tribes listed, and these tribes are not occupying modern day Israel? " I'm not trying to argue but simply to clarify ;-) I would agree, 100% @bsg, but I understand you to mean that they are not currently Messianic Jews - [Follows of Messiah]. correct. ?? All those who know Christ - Gentile and all the Messianic Jews will be raptured. These are the Jews who accept Christ as the Messiah during the Tribulation. I think the plain reading of the text puts these missionaries in the first 3 1/2 years before the AC defiles the Temple - but I'm open to explanations as to how / why they are in the second half. :-) As kjs pointed out, the text explicitly says that they are Jews, and just in case there was any doubt, John lists the tribes of Israel. So they are not Cherokee or Apachee or Hopi, or Navajo, or Mohawks. I think trying to say they are not Jewish/ or Not Israelite is like splitting hairs whether Cherokees are actually Indians, since they're not from India. But here's the bigger point. We know they are Jews, but the amazing thing is that one of the Biblical mechanisms of missions / evangelism is scattering. We're seeing thousands of muslims come to Christ as they were scattered and now in places where they can hear the Gospel. WOW !!!! Literally millions of Jews have been dispersed throughout the world from the diaspora, WWI, WWII and the Holocaust. There is nothing anywhere in scripture that implies that these 144,000 will all be in Israel. They are 144,000 tribulation missionaries, strategically placed around the world, to preach Yeshua, after the time of Gentiles is past. Kind of like dormant seeds - to sprout at the 'moadim' - appointed time.
Remember that Jacob wrestled with the angel in the OT and his new name was Israel. This is particularly crucial when we remember that the Tribulation is primarily for Jews - the time of Jacob's trouble - not Ryan, or Trevor's trouble. While the focus of the end times events is in Israel, there are millions of Jews scattered all across the globe - and whether they are in Israel or Atlanta doesn't make them any less or more Jewish. Israeli or Chicago, or Polish Jews, - they are not Gentile - they are part of God's everlasting covenant, and Paul said in Romans that the Gospel was revealed to Gentiles to provoke the Jews to jealousy. We are grafted in, and joint-heirs, but we have to also keep in mind that God established an everlasting covenant with Jewish people, and one of the growing false teachings of the end times is replacement theology.
I love it when J D Farag says this, about the Jewish people and then asks "You know what everlasting means, right...??" This is another very compelling reason why many believe that the main events of the Harpazo, abomination of Desolation and the Second coming are connected with Jewish feasts, but Blood moons are also key signs to watch. I lean this way, but I seriously believe we are seeing labor pains and that we will be raptured before Feast of Trumpets. It's my humble opinion, that every prophecy has been fulfilled in order for the rapture to happen - [we just saw two in the last two months] and as the labor pains increase in frequency and intensity [J D, Farag's analogy] - that as the time nears, God will reveal some key that has been hidden up until the 'moadim' the appointed time, so that for us watchmen - "the Rapture will not surprise us like a Thief."
Even So, Come Lord Jesus Disciple4life. I agree d4l. My concept of this is that these Jews throughout the world (many I think are in America) may have Christian friends and have an understanding of the Rapture doctrine. When it happens, they realize their Christian friends were right, Jesus is Messiah!...and they are some of the first tribulation saints converted and sealed. |
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Post by witness1 on Jan 17, 2018 2:00:09 GMT -6
I mentioned my Jewish friend in another post and said I wanted to share his testimony, but I never have. We’ve been dealing with ER appendicitis stuff (I’m up now to give hubby medicine so of course took a peak on unsealed) so I cant give the whole grand story, but to sum it up, he says God surrounded him. The number of Christians God put in his life one after another... including truck drivers when he was hitchhiking across the US... finally made him realize God was speaking to him. Eventually God gave one of these Christians a dream to give him a NT in Hebrew (“they’ll pull one on me if I read it in English!”) and he immediately believed Jesus was the Messiah simply from reading the begats in Matthew. God had spoke to him for decades by surrounding him with believers and eventually giving him His word.
I see the same thing happening with my dear friend to whom I’ve been witnessing for years. She freely confesses that all her closest friends and people she has respected most over the years are Christians. She says God keeps putting us in her life. I met her in my neighborhood and the Lord spoke to me that she was His and I need to become friends with her. I found out later that a woman in the homeschool coop I had just joined was her best friend but was moving to California. She looked at me with tears in her eyes and said she had been praying God would send someone to take her place in this woman’s life. God has surrounded my friend.
My chiropractor is Jewish and we have tried to talk to him about Jesus for years. He showed me a video the other day of his grandson being baptized into the Lutheran church and said his son converted as well. I’ve been telling my Jewish friend about him (friend #1 above) and that he needs to go see him and become friends with him since they’re both around age 65 and could perhaps lead him to the Lord. I told my friend tonight about the chiropractor’s son and grandson being baptized and my friend said, “So God has surrounded him. Now I can come in and bring the message.” Tonight he verified what I saw as well... the Lord is moving in my chiropractor’s life somehow.
This is anecdotal evidence of course. But my point is that, in the 3 Jews I am personally close to, God has been working in the lives of his people. He is surrounding them with believers. He is calling them out. I don’t see the same pattern in the other Tom Dick and Harry’s with whom I also attempt to share the Gospel. I confess that 3 people don’t make an entire doctrine, but I see in my sphere of influence (which is surprisingly, humbly large) that the people in my life confirm the idea that the Jews are special to God. Why? Because He said they are. I don’t see any problem or any lessening of His love for the church to say that the Jews are special.
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Post by witness1 on Jan 17, 2018 2:23:18 GMT -6
I hesitate to share things on here until I can write my ideas exactly how I want them and with sufficient scripture to back it up. I’ve been rolling an idea around and wanting to share it, but I can’t find the original source where I read this idea. So here’s the gist and maybe someone can fill in the details. It’s the middle of the night and we got home from the ER at 3:30 last night so this is going to be crude and unedited so I can get back to sleep.
The idea is that the Lord has 2 brides. One is his beloved. One for whom He would give anything, so great is His love for her. But He has another bride as well. One He does not love like the other. One that is not as beautiful to him. One that is not chosen. Nevertheless, He has these 2 brides... one He chose and one He did not choose.
How scandalous! How wrong! Taking a bride He did not love? It can’t be! And TWO brides? Surely God only has one people...
Hasn’t the story of Jacob always rubbed you wrong? Maybe it’s judt my sensitive self, but I always felt sorry for poor Leah, being ugly and unloved. But our father Israel nevertheless had these 2 brides. What happened in the end? He grew to love her. And she grew beautiful because she was loved.
Rachel means “goat”, and Leah means “cow”. Yet another picture of the loveliness of the one and ugliness of the other. But, the blood of goats and the blood of cows are sprinkled together on the altar (need the verse for this).
There is also the verses in Ezekiel 37 about the 2 sticks becoming one in the Lord’s hand. There are many interpretations of what this means. One stick is Judah (Leah’s 4th son), and one is Ephraim (Joseph’s son... Rachel’s line). Could these sticks becoming one in the Father’s hand be the 2 brides that the Lord will unite as one in the end?
In Romans and Hosea, we see that “not my people” become “my people”. “Not my people” are the SON (think male child) of Gomer (Hosea’s adulterous wife AKA Israel). So Israel gives birth to a son, not my people, who later become God’s people. One of the verses seems to address this child when it says, (goin from memory but I’m putting it in quotes:) “plead, plead with your mother to put her whoring from her lips”.
There is a mysterious relationship between Israel and the church. One of the mysteries that will be revealed in the end.
On pentecost, TWO loaves of leavened bread are waved before the priest. The grain offering at Firstfruits is unleavened and is BURNED. Jesus was this first fruit. There is only one grain offering of 2/10 an ephah of flour here. But on Pentecost, there are 2 loaves, each 2/10 of an ephah. They are equal, yet they are separate. They are each measured, prepared, leavened, and baked separately. Care is put into each of them, and they are each offered to the Lord- this time waved but not burned. When the second grain offering of new wheat comes (we already had the first fruits of barley offered with Jesus), 2 separate but equal loaves will be presented. I like the idea that they go to the King’s table for communion... both there together.
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Post by witness1 on Jan 17, 2018 3:37:43 GMT -6
Don’t the best ideas always come when you should be asleep? Here’s another:
Which bride, Rachel or Leah, bore the most fruit? Which bride had a womb that was closed until much later? (We see the church has born much fruit but Israel has only recently begun to convert.) Which bride became jealous of the other when she saw her sister was bearing fruit but she wasn’t? Hmmm. Sounds a lot like Romans 11 to me.
When Rachel saw that she bore Jacob no children, she envied her sister. She said to Jacob, "Give me children, or I shall die!" - Genesis 30:1
It’s like all of a sudden Rachel looked around and saw Leah had children and she didn’t. That verse always struck me as funny that she didn’t see it happening over several years but rather one day noticed she didn’t have kids.
Thankfully, this chosen bride did eventually bare fruit, and this fruit was the apple of his father’s eye. This son was loved above the other 11. (That always felt unfair to me too, yet that’s exactly how things went down.)
Let’s go a step further... this son, Joseph, the most loved by his father, the one Israel had in his old age, saved all his brothers and even his father. When you’re reading the story and all you see is the well and slavery, you think this can’t possibly end well. Yet God works miracles and what people intend for evil He uses for good. And this fruit of Rachel born to Israel in his old age saves his brothers and the whole land during the 7 year famine.
If God is going to restore all things... And I say “if” because this is new to me and I don’t feel sure of it yet... wouldn’t it make sense that He has a plan to do so? A plan that has been in the works since the dawn of time? A story that began long ago and whose characters develop through the ages as each plays his role in the grandest story ever told? Could it be that He shows us how this will play out? A bride is chosen but barren. An unloved bride who bears much fruit. The offspring of the chosen bride suffers greatly at the hands of men but meets his Lord in the dungeon of darkness and then shines this light forward into all the land.
We know the Lord meets us in the pit. When you read Joseph’s story, you see that God worked in him in that prison. He came out a different man, having encountered God. The other brothers never rose to greatness because they were never tried as severely as the one who was loved above all others. This is a hard road to be called to for sure. But He who calls is faithful. As for us, let us be like Reuben who tries to come to the defense of Joseph and not like the brothers who are eager to sell him. May we begin praying for these 144,000 witnesses who will travel a narrow and rocky path but who will meet the Lord along the way and, perhaps, in the end save the entire land, or at least his father’s house.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2018 6:21:28 GMT -6
This is interesting stuff to ponder.
It must not necessarily have to do with some 'Restoration of all things'.
Maybe it's simply about the loved bride that does not bear fruit?
But indeed the mystery of the church and Israel and the 144.000 witnesses seems to be connected to the 2 brides Rachel and Leah.
Good observation. Hopefully we get the whole picture a bit more clearer now...
Just thinking loud with my keyboard.
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Post by witness1 on Jan 17, 2018 8:14:44 GMT -6
Agreed that it does not necessarily have to do with restoration. More than making a case for restoration, I am making a case for dispensationalism. The theme is 2 brides- one chosen and one not. The offspring of the beloved bride (Joseph) suffers and meets God and then is a witness for Him. We know that the father’s house is saved. We don’t know about the other nations. Just offering the idea that, if restoration does indeed occur, this is a plausible scenario.
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Post by disciple4life on Jan 17, 2018 11:12:27 GMT -6
Don’t the best ideas always come when you should be asleep? Here’s another: Which bride, Rachel or Leah, bore the most fruit? Which bride had a womb that was closed until much later? (We see the church has born much fruit but Israel has only recently begun to convert.) Which bride became jealous of the other when she saw her sister was bearing fruit but she wasn’t? Hmmm. Sounds a lot like Romans 11 to me. When Rachel saw that she bore Jacob no children, she envied her sister. She said to Jacob, "Give me children, or I shall die!" - Genesis 30:1 It’s like all of a sudden Rachel looked around and saw Leah had children and she didn’t. That verse always struck me as funny that she didn’t see it happening over several years but rather one day noticed she didn’t have kids. Thankfully, this chosen bride did eventually bare fruit, and this fruit was the apple of his father’s eye. This son was loved above the other 11. (That always felt unfair to me too, yet that’s exactly how things went down.) Let’s go a step further... this son, Joseph, the most loved by his father, the one Israel had in his old age, saved all his brothers and even his father. When you’re reading the story and all you see is the well and slavery, you think this can’t possibly end well. Yet God works miracles and what people intend for evil He uses for good. And this fruit of Rachel born to Israel in his old age saves his brothers and the whole land during the 7 year famine. If God is going to restore all things... And I say “if” because this is new to me and I don’t feel sure of it yet... wouldn’t it make sense that He has a plan to do so? A plan that has been in the works since the dawn of time? A story that began long ago and whose characters develop through the ages as each plays his role in the grandest story ever told? Could it be that He shows us how this will play out? A bride is chosen but barren. An unloved bride who bears much fruit. The offspring of the chosen bride suffers greatly at the hands of men but meets his Lord in the dungeon of darkness and then shines this light forward into all the land. We know the Lord meets us in the pit. When you read Joseph’s story, you see that God worked in him in that prison. He came out a different man, having encountered God. The other brothers never rose to greatness because they were never tried as severely as the one who was loved above all others. This is a hard road to be called to for sure. But He who calls is faithful. As for us, let us be like Reuben who tries to come to the defense of Joseph and not like the brothers who are eager to sell him. May we begin praying for these 144,000 witnesses who will travel a narrow and rocky path but who will meet the Lord along the way and, perhaps, in the end save the entire land, or at least his father’s house. Very good point witness1. I'm not sure if it's connected at all, but I just had a thought and I think there is really something to your concept/ analogy of the two sticks/ two brides, - idea that we are grafted in/ joint heirs with Christ, but yet Israel is distinct and she has a special and unique role that no other nation/ people has. I know that there are several other threads related to the 2 witnesses and I don't want to sidetrack Barb's thread, but I thought it is very interesting that multiple end times teachers/ Prophecy scholars have noticed/ mentioned that the 2 witnesses are Enoch and Elijah, and it seems to really dovetail well with the idea of the two stick/ two brides idea. Also there is evidence from scripture, and Enoch is explicitly mentioned as coming back before the end- but the really interesting thing is the theory or idea that they represent Jews and Gentiles. Elijah representing the witness to the Jews and Enoch representing the Witness to the Gentiles. hmmmm Wow. Anyway -just something else to chew on.
Blessings, Disciple4life
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jan 17, 2018 11:54:34 GMT -6
Let's start at the end of Rev 6...
Somehow quite a list of people know this is God doing this...and it seems this large group of people ackowledge that the great day of wrath has come..so this next vision can not be in order. This is what comes next, Chapter 7:
I find this interesting because the opening of the 6th seal mentions this: and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. That is quite a shaking, I bet it breaks the sensors of the USGS EQ monitors...then they (four angels) are told not to harm the sea or the trees until the bond-servants are sealed. Sounds like this is before all the stuff of the trumpets and bowl judgements...and BEFORE the 6th seal...
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
moving onward:
John writes this next, but I believe this is a distinction and a different group that also has the same "look" or immortalized bodies. But this group is from a different time frame:
If the witnesses are sealed, and are to witness then this is an earthly vision to John about the 144,000 being described from the tribes, no? He isn't really seeing them is he? He is HEARING the names of the 144,000...They are not clothed in white, or at least he does not say so. Just who they are. We get more of their description later..
and then John is seeing those with immortal bodies of clothed in white robes (side note, had a misspell: does anyone realize the the difference between immoral and immortal is the letter "T"? like a Cross???..gopher hole, sorry) John must be seeing what is going on "behind the scenes" in the heavenly realm when it comes to this multitude. Maybe John was shown there is a plan for these witnesses to witness to this multitude that will come out of the final wraths?? They seem to be new believers as they have washed robes from the Blood of the Lamb ( I see this term and I go to the latter chapters of
These witnesses though, are raptured, in what I am coming to believe is the first harvest: and we are in Revelation 14 here, not 7:
I am not sure why there is so much emphasis on the not being defiled by women, other than, if I were to "spiritualize" this, since this is a vision in another dimension, these people are immortal, having been "restored" to their state prior to the Apple Eating Event. They are like they were BEFORE having eaten the Apple that Eve (the woman)gave Adam from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
This is where I am at so far, and I so appreciate that people are participating. Yes there is Face Value wording, but Revelation is so intricate, and there are repeated phrases and terms. Every time I read it I start seeing a repeat of things like "every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues" and then there is "And those who dwell on the earth" Then there are the "bond-servants", and then there are the "saints."..stuff like that. That causes me to go back and forth between those who are immortalized and those who are still fleshly, those who were raptured, those who died and came to Faith before dying..those that refuse and take the mark are still earth dwellers...These witnesses, if "like Adam pre-Apple" have dominion like what was given, and they must be ministering the Work of the Lord in this process of wrath and restoring..
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jan 17, 2018 12:13:43 GMT -6
Great stuff witness1 and disciple4life ! I am adding your input to my understanding. Yes, there is 2 witnesses, and 144,000 witnesses. I do believe that the 144,000 are those who are Messianic "Israelite/Judah" people. Reason being there is this reference to being sealed having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads. Somewhere in Rev there is a group of people singing the song of Moses...in Chapter 15.. Moses is a bond-servant, so is John...and if we consider that God chose a certain people to bring in the Christ in the flesh (which we have proof via the geneology given by Matthew and Luke)....So there is this phrase in Revelation that is repeated, that states "both God and the Lamb" it makes me think of those people that God showed His Plan throughout these past 6 thousand years..these "chosen", the root, to which we the gentiles were grafted. |
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This is particularly crucial when we remember that the Tribulation is primarily for Jews - the time of Jacob's trouble - not Ryan, or Trevor's trouble. 
