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Post by rt on May 9, 2017 14:24:36 GMT -6
I am going to be away for a few days, I may have a little time to answer questions before I go but will resume posting on the 6th seal sometime next week.
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Post by rt on May 10, 2017 12:45:27 GMT -6
Okay so I have more time than I thought so I will continue with the 6th seal
Let's continue on with the passage:
There are a few very intriguing things to note in this passage, first of all, this is the one and only time throughout the whole Revelation that we hear from the people on earth. This is a complete departure in the narrative. Up until this point we have heard words from John, from Jesus as He dictated the letters to the churches to John, from the 24 elders, from the four living creatures. But oddly here in chapter 6 we hear these people on earth speak, to me at least, it stands in stark contrast to the rest of the book. What is it that they say?
They hid themselves in caves and the rocks of the mountains and ask the mountains and rocks to fall on them and hide them from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb!, They claim to say this because they believe that the day of their great wrath has come.
This is incredible on so many levels. You have the ungodly hiding in fear from the presence of God, in the belief that the day of God's wrath is upon them. Now we have to remember who these people are. They are mentioned again later in the Revelation:
In chapter 6 at the removal of the sixth seal, you see these people hiding in fear from God, then later you see them gathered in rebellion and defiance on the battlefield to make war against Him. One very good bit of information that shows us that the sixth seal and the events here in chapter 19 cannot be the same events, as some believe. You cannot have the same group of people cowering and hiding in terror and fear from God, and also gathering in open rebellion to make war against God. I find it interesting that the only folks absent from the list in chapter 19 are the rich, which I presume is because throughout the great tribulation they would have lost their wealth by this point in time.
We know that these people consist of those who will respond to God by rebelling and making war against Him, we know that these are those who will follow the beast, they will take the mark, they are numbered with the wicked. They say that the wrath of the Lamb and God has come. Are we to believe that this is in fact true? This idea doesn't come from one of the 24 elders or any of the four living creatures, who have been speaking to John in the heavenly tabernacle, it comes from those who are counted as unrighteous before God! If the sixth seal is removed before the tribulation, before the 70th week even begins, before Christ's return to earth to bring retribution and vengeance upon the wicked. Before the Day of the Lord ensues, why are these folks making this claim?
Every reference in scripture to the Day of the Lord is connected with the wrath of God and the return of Christ to establish His kingdom on earth. We know the wrath of God does not come until the later half of the 70th week, when the bowls are poured out in judgment.
I would again assert that there is a reason why the end of the week looks so similar to its beginning. I believe that those left on earth at the time of the rapture will be deceived into believing that the beginning of the 70th week is actually its end. We see in Thessalonians 2, how believers were falsely being told that the day of the Lord had come, that somehow they missed the "ingathering", but Paul lays out a clear road map of all the signposts that lead up to that "Day", demonstrating to them that it had in fact not come. That they had not missed the gathering together to Christ (AKA the rapture). Paul tells the Thessalonians that the "lawless one" will come in accordance with the activity of Satan with lying signs and wonders and with "all deception" for those who perish because they did not receive the truth so as to be saved.
In the world today there are few people who don't have some knowledge, however limited, of eschatology, whether Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or other religious paradigm. There are many faiths that expect cataclysmic world events to be followed by the appearance of some kind of world Savior. Most cultures have some idea of what the Christian and Jewish eschatological view is. They have heard of Armageddon, they know something about the "day of wrath". There are many who have Christian family members who who have shared these ideas with them or they have heard on TV or radio. I believe that the events of the sixth seal will set up the circumstances (deluding influence) and conditions to facilitate the greatest deception ever perpetrated on mankind. The Lawless One will claim that somehow Armageddon will have been averted, that the rapture was a necessary event in order to remove those from among mankind so that they can now advance to the New Age, and experience the great "shift" in evolution, man's shift toward achieving his own deification. I believe that is the clue we receive from these who hide themselves from God at the opening of the 6th seal. These frightening events do look very similar to events that happen at the end of the 70th week. It is easy to imagine how this deception could play out perfectly, with the Antichrist perceived to be that Savior figure so many are waiting for, including and especially the Jews, who are central characters in the fulfillment of biblical prophecy concerning the end times.
So there is this odd passage in Luke, that seems out of place as Jesus is on His way to be crucified:
Here again you see the same reference to the "green" tree of spring and the "dry" tree of late fall. Jesus talks about a future time when these women should weep for themselves and their children, a time when they will wish that they never brought children into the world. He basically says, that people will behave prematurely, they will desire the mountains and hills to hide them when the spiritual fruit of the nation has not yet been brought forth. If they behave so before the harvest how will they behave when the harvest is over? If they desire to hide themselves before the great tribulation even starts, what will happen when the events of the tribulation transpire? Jesus told the people not long before His crucifixion when they can expect to become woeful mothers; after the Abomination of Desolation, when great tribulation comes upon the world:
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Post by rt on May 10, 2017 12:52:22 GMT -6
With all of this said, I do believe that many will not be deceived and will recognize the events of the 6th seal as the rapture of the church and will be saved during the first half of the 70th week. These will be those who will die as martyrs to complete the number of those martyred that John sees and hears from at the opening of the 5th seal.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2017 20:15:16 GMT -6
rt,
In the old testament program there were two types of people in God's eyes - Jews or Gentiles. I'm torn, do you think when the 70th week begins, that it reverts to the Jew and Gentile program with God's focus on the Jew or do you think Gentile believers will be included in the converted also? Grace will be over...so(?)
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Post by watchmanjim on May 11, 2017 10:21:03 GMT -6
rt, In the old testament program there were two types of people in God's eyes - Jews or Gentiles. I'm torn, do you think when the 70th week begins, that it reverts to the Jew and Gentile program with God's focus on the Jew or do you think Gentile believers will be included in the converted also? Grace will be over...so(?) I don't know what rt will say, but I can tell you what I see. It looks like the emphasis will switch back over to the Jews (actually, Israelites, which is a much larger group than Jews), and the Israelites will reach out and evangelize the gentiles as well. |
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2017 10:31:33 GMT -6
watchmanjim, thanks for going ahead and speaking up or in  . I just wonder if temple worship will resume for the Israelites - what will the Gentiles do? Do as the Israelites in regard to sacrifices(?) as again, grace is over.... what will that look like? |
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Post by watchmanjim on May 11, 2017 14:39:58 GMT -6
The prophecies seem to indicate that in the Millennial Reign, the Gentiles nations will come up to Jerusalem annually for feasts, whereas normal temple worship, primarily by the Israelites, but probably open to the gentiles as well, will take place weekly.
There are a lot of verses to study out about that, and I don't have time at the moment to go chasing them all down. The Ezekiel temple section is a great place to start, and then add Isaiah's comments and others onto that.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2017 14:44:10 GMT -6
watchmanjim,
I probably wasn't clear.... I am referring to the tribulation period only. I'm not talking at all about the Millennial period. |
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Post by watchmanjim on May 11, 2017 18:26:38 GMT -6
watchmanjim,
I probably wasn't clear.... I am referring to the tribulation period only. I'm not talking at all about the Millennial period. Ah, ok. During the tribulation's first 3.5 years, it seems that the Israelites will have their temple and will be able to use it, although I think you will find, that not all of them worship and accept Jesus Messiah. It could be that most of them in that time period go with the temple worship and a non-Christian Judeaism, as many of them do today. However, the 144,000, and all who follow them and the 2 witnesses, will evidently be out evangelizing everywhere, both to the Israelites and to gentiles, probably throughout the earth. Then when the Abomination is set up in the temple, the Israelites who are in the area of Jerusalem and Judea are to flee out of the city into the mountains. I believe it is at this time, that many of the formerly lost Israelites will choose to follow Messiah, when they are hidden for 3.5 years. Then most of the non-mark-receiving people of the earth, outside of the hidden remanant, will be slain by their enemies. But some non-mark receiving gentiles will survive, as shown in Isaiah 66 and elsewhere. |
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Post by watchmanjim on May 13, 2017 0:00:46 GMT -6
This guy seems to believe the same Revelation timeline that rt has put out.
He seems to have predicted Planet X's arrival improperly.
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Post by rt on May 15, 2017 13:52:27 GMT -6
rt, In the old testament program there were two types of people in God's eyes - Jews or Gentiles. I'm torn, do you think when the 70th week begins, that it reverts to the Jew and Gentile program with God's focus on the Jew or do you think Gentile believers will be included in the converted also? Grace will be over...so(?) Hi all, I'm back, had a nice visit with my daughter in Maryland. To answer your question, I think the purpose of the 70th week is to graft the nation of Israel back into the Olive Tree,that they would again be called children of God. So I think that when the 70th week begins, that Israel will be the primary focus, however I also believe that many gentiles will come to faith during the first half of the week with the "fullness of the gentiles" being reached sometime around the middle of the week (the sounding of the 7 thunders) afterward the primary focus will be on Israel. And personally just because we call it the age of grace,I do not think it comes to an end. I do not put God's grace in any box, in my opinion it's always been grace and will always be grace. The "church age" may come to a close, or the age of the gentiles, but God's grace has no limit and no end. |
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2017 14:57:56 GMT -6
Better said rt. True, I would agree wholeheartedly.
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Post by rt on May 24, 2017 17:46:54 GMT -6
Been fairly busy of late, but I have a little time so I will continue with the 6th seal.
This passage is often labeled as an "interlude" in our Bibles. I see it as part of the effect of the removal of the 6th seal from the scroll. These are the effects that transpire in heaven. John describes angels, holding back the four winds of earth. The four corners of the earth would indicate that they have jurisdiction over the four cardinal directions- North, South, East and West. The implication if taken literally, appears to be that no wind would blow on earth anywhere, which is a pretty remarkable phenomena if true. John tells us in this passage that these angels are granted the power to harm the earth and sea and trees. But that before they do so the bond servants of God must be sealed on their foreheads, presumably by the angel who John sees ascending from the rising of the sun having the seal of God. John tells us in the following passage who is to be sealed:
Twelve thousand from each of the twelve tribes of Israel are to receive the seal of God. One hundred and forty four thousand in all. Curiously the tribe of Dan is missing from the list with Manasseh added in his place. Manasseh was Joseph's younger son who received the birth right from Israel before his death. I am not sure why this change is noted here. In any case we know that this sealing takes place before the earth, sea and trees are harmed, so before the trumpets sound and their effects are seen on the earth. This sealing is very similar to a sealing that took place in the Old Testament:
The angel in Ezekiel does not carry a seal to mark the foreheads of the righteous, but rather a writing utensil of some kind, these men were protected from harm as those 144,000 are also kept from the torment of the locusts that come out of the pit in Revelation 9. The seal would denote that these bear the mark of ownership, they belong to God. Later in Revelation 14:1 we see that the seal bears the name of the Lamb (Jesus) and His Father. We are also told that they are purchased from the earth, meaning they are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ as first fruits, and they are righteous and true. We are not told exactly what the 144,000 will do once they are sealed. Many believe that they will testify of Christ as messiah to their fellow Jews and others. They may call mankind to repent of their evil deeds and may point out the deception of the false prophet and the Antichrist.
It is interesting that the 144,000 are referred to as "first fruits". The believers of this age that are in Christ are also called first fruits:
Christ was raised to life on the day way the first fruits of the barley harvest were offered in the temple. I would suggest that since we are "in Christ", and called "His Body", that we would in His likeness also be correlated to the barley first fruits as well.
There are other first fruits offered at Pentecost; wheat was the primary grain offering, along with figs, grapes, wine, and pomegranates. I would suggest that the 144,000 would correlate to the first fruits offered at Pentecost.
to be cont'd
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Post by watchmanjim on May 24, 2017 18:57:53 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2017 19:59:47 GMT -6
Welcome back rt...
I'm right with you there. I think all that sealing that is going on happens as an interlude during the silence in heaven that starts in chapter 8.
And I remember looking up why Dan was cut out, i'm going to have to find where I put it.
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. I just wonder if temple worship will resume for the Israelites - what will the Gentiles do? Do as the Israelites in regard to sacrifices(?) as again, grace is over.... what will that look like?