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Post by stormyknight on Feb 13, 2020 11:59:21 GMT -6
Unfortunately at lot of misunderstanding comes from semantics and unintentional assumptions. For instance, I believe the third temple(physical brick and mortar)is not for Christians or is it needed, but, as I posted, there are those(mainly Jews) that believe they need the temple building in order for God to return and so are ready and willing to build it. I also believe that our(those Christians that make up the church) bodies are a temple for God's Holy Spirit to dwell in and we should treat it as such(even though we are sorely incapable of doing that 100%) Given those elements, when I read someone's post that says 'we are not for the tribulation' I assume they mean the Great Tribulation. I do believe we do/will suffer persecution and trials(tribulation( semantics)) while in this life during the church age, but I don't equate that to the Great Tribulation. So, you see, venge , I realize your stance on the temple and triblulation/The Tribulation, but unfortunately, in this type of medium, it is easy to misunderstand. I do believe we are all blind to certain things until the Holy Spirit reveals the truth to us, but there is no way to know that we are blind until we realize the truth and it is not for any one person, other than the Holy Spirit, to say what that truth is. Which is why we must always go back to scripture for truth and take any speculations with a grain of salt as I know you are well aware. Peace and love.
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Post by venge on Feb 13, 2020 13:59:25 GMT -6
Unfortunately at lot of misunderstanding comes from semantics and unintentional assumptions. For instance, I believe the third temple(physical brick and mortar)is not for Christians or is it needed, but, as I posted, there are those(mainly Jews) that believe they need the temple building in order for God to return and so are ready and willing to build it. I also believe that our(those Christians that make up the church) bodies are a temple for God's Holy Spirit to dwell in and we should treat it as such(even though we are sorely incapable of doing that 100%) Given those elements, when I read someone's post that says 'we are not for the tribulation' I assume they mean the Great Tribulation. I do believe we do/will suffer persecution and trials(tribulation( semantics)) while in this life during the church age, but I don't equate that to the Great Tribulation. So, you see, venge , I realize your stance on the temple and triblulation/The Tribulation, but unfortunately, in this type of medium, it is easy to misunderstand. I do believe we are all blind to certain things until the Holy Spirit reveals the truth to us, but there is no way to know that we are blind until we realize the truth and it is not for any one person, other than the Holy Spirit, to say what that truth is. Which is why we must always go back to scripture for truth and take any speculations with a grain of salt as I know you are well aware. Peace and love.
, We are all blind to certain things until the Holy Spirit reveals them...so true. Let us not think oneself is higher than another through wisdom or one is right and the other wrong blind on the forum. In prophecy we have opinions, there are many. Facts exists when prophecies are fulfilled; not when they are yet future. We can use scripture "line by line, precept by precept..." to understand prophecy, yet there still exists opinions based upon interpretation. That was my point. Have you found scripture speaking of a rebuilt physical temple in Revelation before the millennial reign? To me, a sign like that would be somewhere in Revelation. Unless you think Rev 11:1 speaks of a literal temple. For John to see the AoD set up brings us back to the reason of the "end of the age" and is meant to show that when seen, it is the "end" and sacrifice and oblation have ceased. To escape from this place...where in Revelation the voice says to "come out of her" referring to Babylon due to her coming destruction. Whereas in Jerusalem, when surrounded by Roman armies, those that escaped early on escaped the sword outside the gates, the pestilence and famine inside the gates. Even today, we had SARS COvid19 in Wuhan, China and those that escaped early got out. Those that didn't flee we stuck inside and contained by police, military and civilians from other towns refusing to let any disease carrier into their place. Those stuck inside Wuhan have died from pestilence and today there is a famine of food. Now, I am not saying Wuhan is Babylon. I see what happens and I notice the sad similarities. I had just finished reading lamentations the other day...so much depression and sadness but also a great call to rely on God when these things happen. |
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Post by stormyknight on Feb 13, 2020 16:13:19 GMT -6
I would have to say Matt. 24:15 is crucial verse. "So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand),". Jesus refers to "the holy place", Hagios: set apart by (or for) God, holy, sacred. The only holy place that I could think of that Jesus would refer to would be the temple, and since He is referring also to the Lawless One, I take it to be a literal physical temple. And He speaks of 'seeing' the AoD, so I've always thought it was physical, BUT...to see does not necessarily mean with your eyes, it could mean with your mind; to understand.
3708 horáō – properly, see, often with metaphorical meaning: "to see with the mind" (i.e. spiritually see), i.e. perceive (with inward spiritual perception).
I had not, until this thread, considered that the Lawless One could do something that would be an abomination in the hearts of the Body of Christ. I can believe he would do something if he could, I just never considered that he could, as in, be allowed by God. Perhaps the desolation that the abomination causes is the falling away of many believers? Or is that out of sequence of the way the events are presented?
so many questions.
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Post by mike on Feb 13, 2020 19:43:09 GMT -6
I see both happening concurrently. The heart if mankind is horrible. Myself included. Just in the wars, terror, back biting, love of self, defying Gods established order and on and on and on and on.
Yet in the physical, a reflection of the spirit, we see the temple becoming a possibility, and the culmination of its significance is virtually about to manifest
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Post by bernie on Feb 14, 2020 11:12:12 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2020 17:58:17 GMT -6
I thought it was easy enough to accept that the third Temple is meant for the time of Jacob's Trouble. It's not meant for Christians. Supposedly there are many rituals and observances that Jews cannot do without a Temple. To rebuild this temple, to their delight, and to betray the Jews in it sounds like A/C prophecy to me. All of this while 144K Messianic Jews are declaring the Gospel, likely causing much conflict for the Jews.
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Post by venge on Feb 14, 2020 18:52:56 GMT -6
I would have to say Matt. 24:15 is crucial verse. "So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand),". Jesus refers to "the holy place", Hagios: set apart by (or for) God, holy, sacred. The only holy place that I could think of that Jesus would refer to would be the temple, and since He is referring also to the Lawless One, I take it to be a literal physical temple. And He speaks of 'seeing' the AoD, so I've always thought it was physical, BUT...to see does not necessarily mean with your eyes, it could mean with your mind; to understand.
3708 horáō – properly, see, often with metaphorical meaning: "to see with the mind" (i.e. spiritually see), i.e. perceive (with inward spiritual perception).
I had not, until this thread, considered that the Lawless One could do something that would be an abomination in the hearts of the Body of Christ. I can believe he would do something if he could, I just never considered that he could, as in, be allowed by God. Perhaps the desolation that the abomination causes is the falling away of many believers? Or is that out of sequence of the way the events are presented?
so many questions.
And now you see it as I do. Not that you agree, but my understanding has changed. Previously, I saw a future temple to be built where a man would glorify himself instead of God. But after reading other scripture and comparing their point of view, it lead me to a different thought; much as you had considered the AC in the hearts of men. If We are called to be set apart from the world for God, what happens when church congregations allow an abomination inside that eventually causes desolation? Do churches today allow things in that are abominable which congregants agree with and claim that Christ sanctions them? Yes. Homosexuality is only 1 out of many. We even have trans men/women preaching. I think we will continue to see abominations enter churches in falsehood into the holy place and God will punish. In Ezekiel, God said Jerusalem was like a hot cauldron where all flesh was in it full of blood. And he would destroy the holy people for their abominations. And he starts at the temple. All that claim Christian are not Christians. They don’t truly follow Christ. Perhaps that’s why he says to repent and change to the churches. If we are the temple, can the temple be defiled by living stones that bring in wickedness? Can a man lift up his heart in pride as if he’s he is equal to God? These questions I ask myself. What does the act of sitting in God’s temple mean-but to accept oneself as equal to God lifting yourself above the clouds and dwelling among the starry host. |
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Post by boraddict on Feb 14, 2020 22:05:44 GMT -6
I thought it was easy enough to accept that the third Temple is meant for the time of Jacob's Trouble. It's not meant for Christians. Supposedly there are many rituals and observances that Jews cannot do without a Temple. To rebuild this temple, to their delight, and to betray the Jews in it sounds like A/C prophecy to me. All of this while 144K Messianic Jews are declaring the Gospel, likely causing much conflict for the Jews. You have two points that I find interesting. 1) The third temple is not meant for Christians. 2) 144K Messianic Jews declare the Gospel. Answering the second point first: According to Rev. 7:5 there are only 12K of the 144K that are from the tribe of Judah. Secondly, the entire 144,000 follow the Lamb of God and are therefore Christian (Rev. 14:1, 4). On the first point I need to offer a bit of analysis to wit: If Christ instructs his 144,000 to build the temple then the Jews will be furious because it will not be a Jewish temple but Christian. The ordinance practiced in the temple such as baptism will infuriate the Jews to the point that they will make a deal with the devil to destroy Christ's temple. In other words, the temple may not be a structure built with the materials the Jews are preparing but a building location for converting the Jews to Christ. Thus, the temple structure will be a conversion effort for Christ. As you perhaps know, it is illegal to do missionary work in the nation of Israel. Thus, if an effort was pushed forward and a building built for that purpose then the Jews would outwardly revolt against Christ. However, there would be several hundred souls saved prior to the country's destruction. Therefore, it is my opinion that the temple will be built primarily for missionary work purposes. The Jews will not like what the Christians do. |
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Post by uscgvet on Aug 8, 2020 9:20:00 GMT -6
Rev 11 points back to Zechariah 2 (using verse 1 for both chapters as the link).
Zechariah is the end times of the Old Testament, though I also think other books have been overlooked and also reveal end times prophecy such as 1 Samuel 8-12 [Jesus point to 1 Samuel 8-12 from Luke 19].
But back to the point.
Zechariah 2:4 states that "Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein:"
IMHO Zechariah 2:6 is the Rapture (either pre or mid trib, but I think it's pre trib... lots more OT verses to cover on this but mainly because it matches up positionally before the throne room scene of Zech 3-4 Just like Rev 4-5).
"Ho, ho, come forth" = Christ said this in John 11:43 "And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth." = "Come up hither" Rev 4:1.
And the 4 winds in Zechariah 2:6 match that of Matthew 24:31. We are all literally ripped away from "the land of the north"... spiritual Babylon (many verses on this).
So we know Jerusalem shall be inhabited before a pre/mid trib Rapture. Otherwise, who are the 2 witnesses witnessing too? Empty patches of land?
Chapter 3 of Zechariah is the same as Rev 4-5.
The throne room of where we see the 24 elders around the throne (ie Zechariah 3:8 | ie 1 Samuel 9:22 "about thirty persons").
Chapter 4 of Zechariah is about the the 7 lamps of the (Holy Spirit/Church/Grace, "grace unto it") Rev 1,2,3,4, & 5 and the 2 olive trees/2 candlesticks being the 2 witnesses of Revelation 11:3-4. Revelation 11:3-4 is the most blatantly obvious link to Zechariah 4 there is.
Chapter 5 of Zechariah is about the mark of the beast, the 7 year peace covenant (1 Samuel 11:1-3), and the 3rd Temple "with the timber thereof and the stones thereof"; and wickedness establishing "an house" and "set there upon her own base" (ie sitting on the throne declaring wickedness itself as God). Remember, the AC will not have regard of women (Daniel 11:37). He might be a Tranny.
So: Revelation = Zechariah = 1 Samuel 8-12 = Psalm 18 = Isaiah 13 = etc...
There will be a physical 3rd Temple per Zechariah 5.
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Post by venge on Aug 10, 2020 17:49:11 GMT -6
uscgvet, In Ezekiel 28:2 it reads, With this verse, did the prince of Tyre physically sit in the temple of God that our Lord had accused him of?
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Post by uscgvet on Aug 10, 2020 18:20:28 GMT -6
uscgvet , In Ezekiel 28:2 it reads, With this verse, did the prince of Tyre physically sit in the temple of God that our Lord had accused him of? It doesn't matter if it's physical, spiritual, conceptual, a mind game, a crossword puzzle, etc... It's written. I sit in the seat of God I can't argue against God on what was written... neither can you. Just like James 2. "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." That's what it says. That's what it means. It doesn't mean a wall of text that says "it really means something it doesn't say" or "that's not what it meant". |
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Post by venge on Aug 10, 2020 18:33:01 GMT -6
uscgvet , In Ezekiel 28:2 it reads, With this verse, did the prince of Tyre physically sit in the temple of God that our Lord had accused him of? It doesn't matter if it's physical, spiritual, conceptual, a mind game, a crossword puzzle, etc... It's written. I sit in the seat of God I can't argue against God on what was written... neither can you. Just like James 2. "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." That's what it says. That's what it means. It doesn't mean a wall of text that says "it really means something it doesn't say" or "that's not what it meant". So, is that an affirmation that he did not physically sit in the temple of God yet fulfilled it because his heart? |
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Post by uscgvet on Aug 10, 2020 18:52:34 GMT -6
It doesn't matter if it's physical, spiritual, conceptual, a mind game, a crossword puzzle, etc... It's written. I sit in the seat of God I can't argue against God on what was written... neither can you. Just like James 2. "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." That's what it says. That's what it means. It doesn't mean a wall of text that says "it really means something it doesn't say" or "that's not what it meant". So, is that an affirmation that he did not physically sit in the temple of God yet fulfilled it because his heart? It's an affirmation that it's written that "I sit in the seat of God". You can play mind games with that all you want. I <-- a man sit < -- makes a motion from standing to the sitting position in <-- as opposed to outside of the seat <-- a place to sit in of God <-- owned by God I see it as it says it. |
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Post by boraddict on Aug 10, 2020 19:26:14 GMT -6
According to Ron Wyatt the Ark of the Covenant is approximately 20 feet below Jesus' crucifixion site. I think the temple is to house the Ark of the Covenant. So when the temple is built it will primarily serve that purpose.
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Post by venge on Aug 10, 2020 19:31:18 GMT -6
So, is that an affirmation that he did not physically sit in the temple of God yet fulfilled it because his heart? It's an affirmation that it's written that "I sit in the seat of God". You can play mind games with that all you want. I <-- a man sit < -- makes a motion from standing to the sitting position in <-- as opposed to outside of the seat <-- a place to sit in of God <-- owned by God I see it as it says it. No mind games here. I asked a question. A simple yes or no would suffice but you wanted to be cryptic. So I asked was that an affirmation. The prince of tyre said he sat in the seat. God didn’t say he did. God said he had his heart was made like the heart of God. In that, he sat in his seat. Thank you for the quick reply Edit: worth noting, every commentary in biblehub on that says he didn’t sit in God’s seat. They all offer an explanation of pride |
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