Hi Solo! Interesting but he lost me at Niburu... Best point he made was the "Crowning" of the Horseman with the ring of fire eclipse above his head December 26th... I firmly believe no one person has all the answers correct.
This is Disciple4life, your brother in Tennessee. Fan of woodworking, all things grilling-related and end times. ;-) So I want to first off say I'm glad you found the forum !! and the topic is interesting and controversial.
I know that just like the tribulation, 2 witnesses, AC, or every other topic, this one has it's own two sides. Maybe more, but it's interesting. So there are some offshoots, and variations, but it basically boils down to 2.
`1. That none of the seals have been opened yet - The Seals will all be opened at some time during the 7 year tribulation. This camp has two subgroups. One is that the seals will be opened at the start of the rapture - the beginning of the 7 year tribulation. At or shortly after the rapture. and the second subgroup would be of the view that the seals are opened around the middle of the 7 year period, when the AC is revealed and the Great "Big T" Tribulation starts.
2. That at least some of the seals have already been opened. This camp also has subgroups. We will have to have others help me out - I know a few members are in this camp, and it has more subgroups. One is like this thread - that only the first seal has been opened. Two is that the first four have all been opened, and then some within this second camp are of the view that the tribulation started already in the past, but can't give any specific date, or trigger event. But some are of the notion that the 7 years started with the Sept 2017 Revelation 12 sign. Others are of the view that the seals have been opened, but the seals could have been opened independent from the tribulation [ and it didn't start the tribulation.] For example some are of the view that the first seal was opened in the middle ages, with the black plague, or other event in history before the 20th century.
I really want to learn and glean all I can from others - and the new Otter/Expressive Version 2.0 is trying to learn more and be OK, that some disagree - that's cool. So that background - The biggest reason that there is almost no-one who believes that all the seals, or even the 5th seal has been opened, is that unlike the first four seals - the fifth and later seals are very very specific and things we can see, count and measure.
This of course is a problem, because no one is willing to suggest that the fifth seal has been opened because all we have to do is look around, and a 5th grade student can ask Alexa or do a Google search in 5 minutes and see that it's not happened.
So this is why I ask for anyone to give us any scripture or any verifiable evidence - measurable, - such as something from history or the Talmud or the Mishnah, or Documented world history that supports the notion that the first four seals have been opened.
No one is able to do this. There is nothing that I have seen from any Hebrew or Roman or Greek Historical authors or documents or Dead sea scrolls that even hints that Christ was ever on a white horse. The usual answer is that Christ was this first seal because he is the conqueror, and we know that he will ride and conquer in the future.
In the article - he makes the great point of the crown, due to the solar eclipse over the constellation Saggitarus - the half-man, half horse who has a bow. ?? So he's saying Saggitarius is the rider?? Then, he makes a very very shakey connection to conquering - because the coronavirus is "conquering" the world. ?? At this point there have only been 8-9000 deaths world wide, not even remotely close to the deaths from abortion, the common flu, WW I, WW II, or the Holocaust, or the black plague, or the Spanish flu, or dozens of other examples .
So his "rider" is sketchy, and the "conquering" is based on current numbers of deaths, skewed numbers of mortality rates because of Italy's oldest population in Europe. Is anyone else not convinced. ?? For one moment, if we all agreed that the coronavirus will kill more than 1 million people world wide, and we had some way to show this was mathematically likely, I'm not sure this counts as conquering. ??
Aside from these dubious connections - this further underscores my point that it's not measurable. I'm not an astronomy expert, but I know that many times, a solar or lunar eclipse can only be seen for a few minutes in part of the world, and not able to be seen at all by most. This was why the eclipse over America was so rare - it crossed the entire USA, but was not visible in other countries.
I've heard people speculate and make leaps to connect the red horse to china, because of Red and Communism and the flag, etc, etc, etc, but it's nothing solid, and when people mention that we haven't seen 1/3 of the people of the earth killed, then the answer is usually something that tries to use the Percentage of populated land.
This is not something that is a salvation issue - and my mind is not "Firmly set" like concrete. I would like to hear the evidence. I'm looking for someone who can give me compelling reasons, but I haven't heard anything. I'm really hoping that someone on this thread will be able to make the case. ;-)
I do believe that it’s possible the 5th seal has been opened since Christ entered heaven. Martyrdom has gone on since that time and continues in many nations today. That’s not to say a time could come separate from these other events that really stands out. That is possible! But I recognize that martyr’s have existed and continue to exist.
As far as the previous 4 seals, RT wrote a very well written piece on the subject of them being opened with scripture. Though she doesn’t mention points i’d add to her analysis, she focuses her strengths on some major issues and uses scripture to back up her point.
What is interesting about her hypothesis is it still leaves in place “a pre TB” rapture from a different viewpoint. Though I disagree with the view, I agree with her analysis and her placement agrees with other theories on the seals being opened with possible exception of 5th seal. Obviously, some will see this as opened or closed. I think all agree the 6th is closed because it’s the catalyst leading into the 1st Trumpet.
Thanks so much, my brother. I really appreciate the information. 2 quick questions.
1. Do i understand the view correctly that 1 comes before 2 which comes before 3. [ that they are opened in numerical order so that if 5 is opened, the other 4 were opened? And
2. Could you post the link where i can find RTs analysis.
I look forward to seeing it.
Brothers and sisters, it wont be long, we are almost home.
Well, I can only answer for myself. I understand the seals as chronological. With the first 4, I used to think the result of one cause the next. From a Pre TB standpoint, that’s how I was taught. Now, I’ve come to believe each of the first 4 seals are 4 events working on the earth in different nations to bring them to God. Not as wrath, but judgment like reproving children that did wrong so that they repent and change. They continue through the ages. It’s when all 4 are in the same nation that things get bad. God warns us about his 4 sore judgments in OT scripture. War, famine, pestilence and beasts. RT gives her analysis on this which is 99% of my own but she writes it so eloquently- much better then I.
With the 5th, I think this is why we have debates. Everyone acknowledges Christians died from Christ to today. Persecution has continued. That concern is that the worst of it happens at the “great tribulation” which Pre TB says is not the church but future converts they call “tribulation saints”. Those 2 words place a Christian in tribulation, which many agree to we go thru, but it keeps the church out. So everyone agrees, Christians go through great tribulation. But they disagree which ones: the church or new converts afterwards.
With the 6th, I believe it truly is a catalyst for the 1st Trumpet. The literal sense of astral abnormalities or symbolic sense of loss of prosperity foreshadows the outcome of the Trumpets. Especially with the result of the interlude in Ch. 7 and the 7th seal. Specifically, I am referring to sealing the 144k from the wind blowing on them. From a literal stance, I’m unsure how some understand it. For me, the wind blowing demonstrates the 4 winds/spirits we see in the 4 seals coming upon a nation at once to destroy it completely. This vengeance isn’t directed upon man, though man as a consequence suffers through it. But the vengeance is directed on a nation and city in order to appease the 5th seal martyrs that ask “how long”. The first 4 Trumpets in chronological sequence, following seal 6-7, are exacted to fulfill God’s promise in seal 5. I believe the following trumpets (5-6) are the outcome and what follows of God’s vengeance on Babylon (Trumpet 1-4). In 5-6, man emerges from loss of Babylons destruction detailed in various interludes outside of the trumpets/seals/bowls. I see this emergence trying to rebuild what was lost. Specifically, I see during these 2 trumpets - the image of the beast and it’s worship as well as the marks implementation. All this toward repentance at the very last hr when 2 witnesses ascend and many who witness it give glory to God.
I left out much and I did not give scripture, I’m at work, but I thought I’d just post it anyway.
Natalie: just wondering if every town could have a center of worship and an image of the beast to worship via hologram
Nov 29, 2020 19:17:02 GMT -6
Natalie: or in their own home. I think it's probably already been considered, but I didn't realize that personal hologram machines were actually being made and available.
Nov 29, 2020 19:26:32 GMT -6
EnochWalked: I could see the Saudis taking control of the Temple Mount next year (possibly as part of some bigger deal involving a Palestinian state, maybe with new leadership in Israel) but it might take another year for animal sacrifices to be allowed there.
Nov 30, 2020 11:51:39 GMT -6
EnochWalked: "Gantz has refused to say if Blue and White will support the bill. His party has been reportedly weighing putting forward its own bill to disperse the Knesset to avoid handing Yesh Atid credit for the move."
Nov 30, 2020 11:56:02 GMT -6