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Post by venge on Oct 31, 2020 6:43:28 GMT -6
Natalie, disciple4life, I have a question. Natalie had said in her comment that she held the Bride to be separate from the guests. I know many people believe this (as well as man believe they are the same). In D4L's post he said: So, if the bridesmaids are a rapture picture...and they are going to a wedding of their friend, the bride...arnt they guests? And if so, isnt there just 1 rapture of bible believing Christians with the resurrection of the dead?
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Post by disciple4life on Oct 31, 2020 8:02:01 GMT -6
Natalie , disciple4life , I have a question. Natalie had said in her comment that she held the Bride to be separate from the guests. I know many people believe this (as well as man believe they are the same). In D4L's post he said: So, if the bridesmaids are a rapture picture...and they are going to a wedding of their friend, the bride...arnt they guests? And if so, isnt there just 1 rapture of bible believing Christians with the resurrection of the dead? I read Natalie post and I think I understand that perspective. Distinguishing between the bride and the guests at a wedding. With that said, there are many examples where people are invited to the wedding ceremony, but the wedding feast is a much smaller, separate and private gathering. I'm not hard-core on this point, but it could be the case that the tribulation saints would be 'guests' at the marriage supper, since it's at the end of Revelation [chap 19], but to answer Joecool , I am of the belief that since the rapture is the wedding, tribulation saints are not included in this part - but it's very clear that they are not without reward. I think it's likely they would be part of the supper at the end of the 70th week. Also, just to clarify - I didn't say that the "Bridesmaids are a rapture picture". I said that the wedding parable itself is a picture of the rapture. The Bridegroom comes with a shout at midnight. 5 bridesmaids are watching and ready, and know the hour, and go in to the wedding. The 5 foolish [some translations say wicked] bridesmaids did NOT know the Hour and did not go in to the wedding. And Yes, venge, my brother, i agree with you that there is only one wedding event which corresponds with the resurrection of the dead, which is immediately prior to [like a nano second] to the rapture. But of course, we differ on when the rapture happens in relation to the 70th week. I see it at the beginning, Day of Christ and you see it at the end/ the latter half. I respect that people interpret scripture differently and still are totally dedicated followers of Christ. ;-) Not a fan of John Piper at all, but to roughly paraphrase his quote - since I'm in the South, "Everyone need not like sweet tea with lime, or have grits baptized in butter and cheese." LOL. |
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Post by Natalie on Oct 31, 2020 8:16:41 GMT -6
Natalie , disciple4life , I have a question. Natalie had said in her comment that she held the Bride to be separate from the guests. I know many people believe this (as well as man believe they are the same). In D4L's post he said: So, if the bridesmaids are a rapture picture...and they are going to a wedding of their friend, the bride...arnt they guests? And if so, isnt there just 1 rapture of bible believing Christians with the resurrection of the dead? I read Natalie post and I think I understand that perspective. Distinguishing between the bride and the guests at a wedding. With that said, there are many examples where people are invited to the wedding ceremony, but the wedding feast is a much smaller, separate and private gathering. I think it actually is the opposite. The wedding is a smaller more private affair and the wedding feast is where everyone is invited. Different than we might do here in the West. So the word used in the parable of the ten virgins is plural and means the wedding feast. I know people see it as a rapture picture, but it makes more sense to me that it is a 70th week picture.
Plus then people can't use this parable to say that only the "worthy" in the church are raptured, or only those who are watching.  |
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Post by disciple4life on Oct 31, 2020 9:48:10 GMT -6
I read Natalie post and I think I understand that perspective. Distinguishing between the bride and the guests at a wedding. With that said, there are many examples where people are invited to the wedding ceremony, but the wedding feast is a much smaller, separate and private gathering. I think it actually is the opposite. The wedding is a smaller more private affair and the wedding feast is where everyone is invited. Different than we might do here in the West. So the word used in the parable of the ten virgins is plural and means the wedding feast. I know people see it as a rapture picture, but it makes more sense to me that it is a 70th week picture.
Plus then people can't use this parable to say that only the "worthy" in the church are raptured, or only those who are watching. I agree with you Natalie - I totally think that the "wedding is the smaller more private affair, and the wedding feast is where everyone is invited."- and this would fit the part about the living believers being raptured, but the Tribulation saints being part of the Marriage supper.  I didn't word it clearly. I was trying to make the point that in many cultures it's one wedding, but the ceremony and wedding feast are very separate and distinct. This is particularly true in many cultures where the ceremony is in a 200 year old catholic/ Anglican cathedral, which doesn't have space or facilities to feed 60-100 people. Because the have to rent a restaurant - the feast is very expensive and so fewer people are invited, Churches with Fellowship halls and big kitchens are primarily a Western phenomena in the last century. |
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Post by boraddict on Oct 31, 2020 9:57:37 GMT -6
So what comes first; the wedding feast or the wedding ceremony?
Rev. 19:9 seems to be pointing to the supper at Rev. 19:18. So it seems that the ceremony is first at Rev. 19:5-8 and the marriage supper (feast) begins it's reference at Rev. 19:9-21. If that is correct then Rev. 7 is about the ceremony having the great multitude and then the beast is destroyed at the feast in Rev. 19.
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Post by venge on Oct 31, 2020 11:49:51 GMT -6
So what comes first; the wedding feast or the wedding ceremony? Rev. 19:9 seems to be pointing to the supper at Rev. 19:18. So it seems that the ceremony is first at Rev. 19:5-8 and the marriage supper (feast) begins it's reference at Rev. 19:9-21. If that is correct then Rev. 7 is about the ceremony having the great multitude and then the beast is destroyed at the feast in Rev. 19. That is how I see it bora |
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Post by boraddict on Oct 31, 2020 19:58:10 GMT -6
venge , please notice the link from Rev. 19:9 (Write Blessed ...) to Rev. 14:13 (Write Blessed). Thus, the 19:9 reference to the "marriage supper" corresponds the the "dead which die in the Lord from henceforth." We see in Chapter 19 that the marriage supper is war with the beast. So it must be the case that some of the army of the Lord die and that is what 14:13 is addressing. Then we see the white cloud (Rev. 14:14) that is the army of God in Rev. 19:19. Next we see the angel with the loud voice at Rev. 19:17, 14:15. This means that the war in which the beast is destroyed (Rev. 19:19) is found in Chapter 14 at Rev. 14:16. 1) Rev. 19:9 corresponds to Chapter 14 at Rev. 14:13; this is the introduction to the marriage supper of the Lord 2) Rev. 19:10-16 corresponds to Chapter 14 at Rev. 14:14; this is the Savior with his army 3) Rev. 19:17-18 corresponds to Chapter 14 at Rev. 14:15; this is the angel with the loud voice announcing that it is time to make war 4) Rev. 19:19-21 corresponds to Chapter 14 at Rev. 14:16; this is the Savior and his army destroying the beast and the beast's army
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Post by venge on Nov 1, 2020 7:38:48 GMT -6
Natalie , Just trying to figure this all out. I am open to understanding more on the bride and guest roll. I am still not seeing it from your perspective yet. I did a word search for "guests" in scripture and wanted to post this verse below... Look at Matthew 9:15 Berean version These were the apostles. Even they were sons/attendants/guests of the wedding; some commentators say wedding and the following feast and others just the wedding feast. If they were guests, why wouldnt I be a guest? I looked at the commentary for this verse and I wanted to post what Ellicott says: And this is how I understood it. Individually a guest, but collectively the Church. Ps. I am still looking into other verse with "guests" and "bride" and their translations. Not to prove my point or yours, but just to gain knowledge and understanding. There seems to be a 50/50 split on the internet with peoples understanding of this. So, I suppose I have taken an intrest in it now lol.
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Post by Natalie on Nov 1, 2020 8:39:33 GMT -6
Maybe I am in one side of the 50 and you are on the other.  (Maybe I can write more later - still finishing a busy weekend.) |
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Post by venge on Nov 1, 2020 9:18:57 GMT -6
Maybe I am in one side of the 50 and you are on the other. (Maybe I can write more later - still finishing a busy weekend.) Its no problem. I don’t take this as an obstacle between brothers/sisters. I’m really curious though...so still looking. Gotta go, Church is doing Luke... |
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Post by disciple4life on Nov 1, 2020 12:30:20 GMT -6
So what comes first; the wedding feast or the wedding ceremony? Rev. 19:9 seems to be pointing to the supper at Rev. 19:18. So it seems that the ceremony is first at Rev. 19:5-8 and the marriage supper (feast) begins it's reference at Rev. 19:9-21. If that is correct then Rev. 7 is about the ceremony having the great multitude and then the beast is destroyed at the feast in Rev. 19. Hello Bora, It seems that this is the $60,000. question. I'm not arguing or disagreeing with you here, just asking. Is the "Great supper of God" which you referenced in Rev where "birds come and "eat the flesh of Kings, and captains, and mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great." ?? Is this the same as Marriage Supper of the Lamb? Are these just two terms for the same event - Great supper of God, and Marriage supper of the lamb, like supper and dinner. ?? I guess it could be. Sounds a lot more like Alfred Hitchcock's movie "The Birds". Wow. What a hellish nightmare. I do see a great gathering in Rev 7 - a huge rally of 144,000 Jews, along with a huge rally of Gentiles - from all nations. But i don't see anything about a ceremony. Did you mean that you see this chapter as a wedding?? Just asking. Will the marriage supper of the Lamb be in the same hall, and simultaneously with the birds devouring all flesh of all mankind?? Maybe the righteous are invited into door #1, and the wicked into door #2. ?? If so, then it fits perfectly with the concept of God's judgement - the sentence being pronounced at Day of Atonement, which comes after the "Wedding of the Messiah" [ceremony] which is Feast of Trumpets, Yom Teruah. Bridegroom comes with a shout. We see this confirmed clearly in scripture - ** It's very important that we always look at the context of a passage -- - Matthew 25 is part of the larger 'Olivette Discourse' where Christ uses Hebrew wedding idioms to explain about end times /Second Advent - ie rapture, events of tribulation, rise of AC, hailstones, Mark of the Beast and Second Coming, when he sets his feet on the Mt of Olives.]
So we see this pattern - Bridegroom comes with a shout- in the Wedding/Rapture parable of Matthew 25:1-13 Check this- in the exact same chapter, first we see the wedding. Then, later on in the same chapter, we see the Final Judgement  - aka "Bema Seat" Judgement, but the word Bema Seat is not in Scripture. It has two meanings - 1. being the elevated booth or box where Judges sat in the Olympics in ancient Greece, and 2. The elevated box or podium, in a synagogue, where the Torah is read. This also fits with the pattern of the feasts and the order - Wedding Ceremony at Feast of Trumpets [Wedding of the Messiah] and Judgement later, at Day of Atonement. - Again-we see the same exact pattern, and harmony of scripture - 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 rapture/Harpazo. Lord comes with a shout for his bride- the church.
- Then a third time, we see the same pattern in scripture , which is also again, confirmed in the feasts - which all point to Christ [Feast of Trumpets, the door of heaven is opened. One of the major themes- wedding of the messiah. Revelation 4:1-2. "After these things i looked and behold a door standing open in heaven , and the first voice which i head heard like the sound of a trumpet, speaking with me, said "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things." And the church is not mentioned until the end of Revelation.
- People should ask "Since we know that Feasts are rehearsals - What is the rehearsal of?" Practice of the real thing. What is it that we are practicing for? Do actors invite guests, rehearse the lines and music and put on costumes and make a set for Sound of Music the night before, only to perform Phantom of the Opera the next night?
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Post by Natalie on Nov 1, 2020 16:55:36 GMT -6
venge , first, thanks for sharing Matthew 9:15. I've read it several times but never really looked at it too deeply.
In thinking about that passage-- I think it's like the others that are parables. He is using a picture to explain truth. (I love that He often does stuff like this because it doesn't give the Pharisees the direct answer they are looking for, but He points them to a truth instead.) I am sure that Jesus and His disciples fasted, but His teaching on it was that it was a private thing. The Pharisees were very public about their fasting. They would walk about looking very sorrowful, maybe wanting pity and attention that they were going without food (because they were so spiritual). Jesus's disciples didn't look sorrowful, how come? So, instead, Jesus says that it's not the appropriate time for that. Instead, it's like the time for wedding preparations.
The phrase in the interlinear is “children (or sons) of the bride-chamber” and is only used in this passage (and the parallel ones in two other gospels.) The definition given is “of the friends of the bridegroom whose duty it was to provide and care for whatever pertained to the bridal chamber, i.e. whatever was needed for the due celebration of the nuptials." (Strongs G3567) I think sometimes some of our English translations are just lacking in depth compared to Hebrew or Greek; I am glad we can access other translations and Strongs. (Although some translations do use the phrase) I like the NASB that calls them "attendants of the bridegroom." That might be more like what I would picture for that phrase. So, He's actually comparing His disciples to those getting the chamber ready for the wedding – not wedding guests at the wedding feast. So, again, I don't think it really is to give us a definition to wedding guests or feast guests or the Bride, but a truth that while He was with them they need not be sorrowful, but a time was coming when they would be. The time was coming when they would need to fast and pray. |
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Post by matthew2423 on Nov 1, 2020 17:01:37 GMT -6
Hello folks!
These are very interesting perspectives! I always thought that the Church was the Bride of Christ, and I believe that that view is a more biblical one than to say that we are the bridesmaids. I think that while we are in Heaven during the Tribulation, I think that we will have the wedding to Christ, the Bema Seat Judgment, and then the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, before we hop on the heavenly horses and gallop to earth for Armageddon! Just my two cents.
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Post by Natalie on Nov 1, 2020 17:12:33 GMT -6
hi matthew2423 , thanks for joining the conversation. Because I am sure that venge will ask - who do you see as the guests at the wedding? I have a similar perspective except that I put the Marriage Supper after the battle mentioned in 19:19-20 and the resurrection mentioned in Rev 20:4. Because I see the believing remnant of Israel, the martyrs, and those who did not take the mark as being the guests at the wedding supper. So, probably at Sukkot (Feast of Tabernacles) and the start of the Millennial Kingdom.
(Because I am sure it will bring up the quesiton -- I don't see the actual feast described in Revelation, just the mention of the blessing for those who were invited)
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Post by boraddict on Nov 1, 2020 20:32:02 GMT -6
disciple4life, much of the BofR is in metaphor. Thus, the birds, trees, grass, etc. are people. So in Rev. 19:17 the angel is calling the army of God to war; that just happens to be the supper of the great God. Then in linking back to Rev. 19:9, it appears to be the case that the ones whom are blessed are those that are called to the marriage supper (in Verse 19:17). So basically the flow of the verses appear to be as follows: Verse 19:9 and then 19:17 and this means that Verses 19:10-16 are an aside. Thus, we have the marriage ceremony at Rev. 19:5-8 and then the marriage supper at Rev. 19:9, 17-21. Thus, the great multitude are not necessarily called to the supper but the ceremony. However, it seems to be the case that the 144,000 are called to the supper as indicated in Rev. 14:1. 1) So we have the fall of Babylon as stated in Rev. 18:2 and 14:8 2) Then we have the call to come out of Babylon in Rev. 18:4 and this appears to be the rapture as shown in Rev. 12:6 3) Then we have the wedding ceremony at Rev. 19:5-8 that is expanded upon in Rev. 7 4) Lastly is the supper of the Lord that is apparently the harvest. The beast is put down and saints gathered.
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- aka "Bema Seat" Judgement, but the word Bema Seat is not in Scripture. It has two meanings - 1. being the elevated booth or box where Judges sat in the Olympics in ancient Greece, and 2. The elevated box or podium, in a synagogue, where the Torah is read.