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Post by mike on Nov 2, 2020 13:27:52 GMT -6
Maybe. I see those saved during the 70th week as the guests to the wedding feast. There is the believing Jewish remnant, believers (probably most martyred), and then unbelievers who didn't take the mark. They aren't "out of luck"; they have different roles than the Bride. The believing Jewish remnant gain all the promises of God from the OT including the land of Israel with borders as promised and having God dwell among them. Believers will be serving in the Millennial Temple (I posted Scripture way back at the beginning of the thread for that one), and then anyone else will help populate the earth during the Millennial Reign.
(I was thinking/typing when you made your edit above  ) Then those you are saying are guests are not the bride then also therefore not the church? Am I mis-reading what you are saying? In a scenario as you pose, believers are raptured ahead of the 7 yr tribulation, and anyone saved after that although saved is not a part of the church/bride. They would not be eternally wed to the bridegroom as they missed the ceremony? Also a question - There is the believing Jewish remnant, believers (probably most martyred), and then unbelievers who didn't take the mark. As I read chapter 19, I dont really see a place for this. Rev 19:2 speaks of those martyred as being avenged and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand which takes place before the wedding feast is announced in verse 7. The feast is announced with a multitude (verse 1) in heaven which includes those He is avenging. No? |
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Post by Natalie on Nov 2, 2020 14:17:56 GMT -6
I think I answered all that earlier in the thread in various posts. If you can't find it, I will repost. |
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Post by Natalie on Nov 2, 2020 15:04:16 GMT -6
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Post by disciple4life on Nov 2, 2020 15:53:32 GMT -6
Natalie , Thanks for the links. I can see points of what you posted, and mike , and venge and matthew2423, and boraddict that make sense. I look forward to checking out the articles you provided. I think that I may be saying much of the same thing as you and Mike, and others, but to me, all those raptured - caught up quickly by force to meet Christ in the clouds, as well as those dead in Christ who are resurrected - simultaneously with, or a nano-second before the rapture are the bride. All others, Jews who are saved and all the tribulation saints, and those martyred for Christ- [who don't take the mark] are not the bride, but will be guests, at the marriage supper of the lamb. Because there is a special martyrs crown, we could say that they are the VIP's. I see the marriage supper occuring at the end, with the second coming, which corresponds to the Day of Atonement- when the judgement is pronounced and the door of heaven is closed - which corresponds to the Hebrew wedding of the ceremony, and then the bride caught up and carried away into the chamber for 7 days, and then the bride and groom return together for the marriage feast. ;-) That's a simple version, but it works for me. Further, it makes the most sense to me, that when Christ comes on the day that the Jews everywhere believe is the wedding of the Messiah, and also the same day that they believe the resurrection happens, that they will also realize that the Messiah came and took a Gentile bride, and they will be provoked to jealousy and their eyes will be opened, and these will be the 144,000 Jewish evangelists. Disciple4life.
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Post by boraddict on Nov 2, 2020 17:30:36 GMT -6
I think most of us consider the marriage to be like a traditional marriage. There is a bride and a groom in addition to family and friends. We know who the groom is and so we need to figure out the bride, and the guests.
1) the groom is Christ
2) the bride is some segment of the church
3) the guests are family and friends of the bride and groom that are also some segment of the church
It is reasonable that the bride does not include all of the church; because, the parable of 10 virgins shows 5 that were ready and 5 that were not. However, all 10 are members of the church. So what does the 5 that were ready represent? Interestingly, there is a great multitude in attendance at the marriage but only 144,000 that are sealed. So it seems that the 144,000 are the bride to which the marriage pertains.
I have theorized that the sealing of Christ to anyone is like the sealing of Christ to the Father. So it seems that the marriage is some event at which the 144,000 are sealed to Christ in like manner that Christ was sealed to the Father. Thus, like Christ wherein to see Him is to see the Father, then after the sealing of the 144,000 if you were to see one of these then you have in fact seen Christ. And, when they go throughout the world looking for souls to save via the Savior, then the Savior has been seen by the world; both the good and the evil. Because, Christ has sent his 144,000 representatives in his stead to gather saints.
Thus the world will see Christ because they see the 144,000 (bride) that were sealed to Christ at the marriage.
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Post by Natalie on Nov 2, 2020 18:11:11 GMT -6
The groom is Christ is correct. The Bride is everyone who has put their faith in Christ for forgiveness of their sins from the time of Pentecost to the Rapture. It's going to be a lot more people than 144,000 I believe the guests are those from before and after the Church Age who put their faith in Christ. Some see the guests as being those who belong to the Bride also. So, they would say anyone throughout history who belongs to Christ is a guest. Not everyone sees the parable of the 10 virgins as speaking about the church. Some of us see it as speaking about what the Kingdom looks like during the time of Daniel's 70th week. Some are ready for His Second Coming and some are not.
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Post by boraddict on Nov 2, 2020 19:32:40 GMT -6
Natalie, the link did not work. There also may be something like a micro and a macro application to the marriage. Perhaps the entire church would be participants in the marriage as a macro application as well as a small group in a micro application. Don't know how that would work out. Just a thought.
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Post by Natalie on Nov 2, 2020 19:47:00 GMT -6
I tried to fix it. Not sure what's wrong. |
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Post by venge on Nov 2, 2020 20:21:45 GMT -6
Maybe. I see those saved during the 70th week as the guests to the wedding feast. There is the believing Jewish remnant, believers (probably most martyred), and then unbelievers who didn't take the mark. They aren't "out of luck"; they have different roles than the Bride. The believing Jewish remnant gain all the promises of God from the OT including the land of Israel with borders as promised and having God dwell among them. Believers will be serving in the Millennial Temple (I posted Scripture way back at the beginning of the thread for that one), and then anyone else will help populate the earth during the Millennial Reign.
(I was thinking/typing when you made your edit above ) BTW, I just got back to this and I am following you and mike, Mike is saying better then I can and I agree with everything he has said. I don't mean he's right therefore I agree...just he is in my head... |
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Post by venge on Nov 2, 2020 20:25:14 GMT -6
Natalie , Thanks for the links. I can see points of what you posted, and mike , and venge and matthew2423 , and boraddict that make sense. I look forward to checking out the articles you provided. I think that I may be saying much of the same thing as you and Mike, and others, but to me, all those raptured - caught up quickly by force to meet Christ in the clouds, as well as those dead in Christ who are resurrected - simultaneously with, or a nano-second before the rapture are the bride. All others, Jews who are saved and all the tribulation saints, and those martyred for Christ- [who don't take the mark] are not the bride, but will be guests, at the marriage supper of the lamb. Because there is a special martyrs crown, we could say that they are the VIP's. I see the marriage supper occuring at the end, with the second coming, which corresponds to the Day of Atonement- when the judgement is pronounced and the door of heaven is closed - which corresponds to the Hebrew wedding of the ceremony, and then the bride caught up and carried away into the chamber for 7 days, and then the bride and groom return together for the marriage feast. ;-) That's a simple version, but it works for me. Further, it makes the most sense to me, that when Christ comes on the day that the Jews everywhere believe is the wedding of the Messiah, and also the same day that they believe the resurrection happens, that they will also realize that the Messiah came and took a Gentile bride, and they will be provoked to jealousy and their eyes will be opened, and these will be the 144,000 Jewish evangelists. Disciple4life. I agree with you unless Pre-Tb is wrong. What if there is no such thing as tribulation saints? What if the church goes through it all and the saints are US? Then we are the guests as you said they (tribulation saints) are...that or the guests is something we havent thought of yet.... |
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Post by Natalie on Nov 2, 2020 20:33:17 GMT -6
Here's a question I ran across...if the church goes through all of it, who is left to populate the Millennial Kingdom? If all believers (Jew and Gentile) get glorified bodies, and the evil doers are all cast out, who is left?
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Post by disciple4life on Nov 2, 2020 20:59:47 GMT -6
boraddict , I agree 100% with your assessment, 1. The groom is Christ. 2. The bride is some segment of the church. ;-) "It is reasonable that the bride does not include all of the church; because, the parable of 10 virgins shows 5 that were ready and 5 that were not. However, all 10 are members of the church. So what does the 5 that were ready represent? Interestingly, there is a great multitude in attendance at the marriage but only 144,000 that are sealed. So it seems that the 144,000 are the bride to which the marriage pertains." I also think that there is a lot open to the interpretation that those in the Tribulation/ Daniels 70th week will be Tribulation saints (Christians) but not part of the Bride per se, because they are not raptured. But the 5 foolish bridesmaids were /are clearly not part of the church. Not part of the Kingdom of God. The text explicitly says "Those who were ready [knew the hour] went in with Him, Christ to the wedding feast, and the door was shut." "The Lord said I do not know you." They were not in the wedding- shut out completely. Not guests,- Not the Bride, and not in the kingdom of God. These were the goats. In another parable, these are the tares, - the thorns which are cast into the fire. These are the religious - who do works, but don't have the oil. White-washed tombs. The contrast that Christ makes here could not be clear. This corresponds to the other parable of the wedding - I think this is one that venge referenced. Matthew 22:11-12. These are goats, or wolves pretending to be sheep, and the result is unmistakably clear. It's not that they had to sit in the back, they were thrown out, into "outer darkness, where there be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Hell. Then, the other thing is in regard to the 144,000. For a minute, for the sake of discussion, we could say the rapture is at the end of the tribulation. In this case, these tribulation saints and all those martyred for Christ who didn't take the mark, and all these separate 144,000 would be the Bride, raptured together. But again, regardless of where one puts the timing of the rapture - these 144,000 are explicitly listed as Jews. I mean they are not Polish, or Korean, or uncircumcised Irish and German Christians. They are 144,000 Jews, and 12 tribes of Israel are listed, with 12,000 in each tribe. These are the 144,000 Jewish evangelists, who witness to all the Jews everywhere. Another reason why the feasts are important - for the salvation of the Jewish nation in the Tribulation. Not trying to be nitpicky, but simply want to sort out the parts of what we don't know, vs what we know based on what scripture clearly says, in relation to the wedding/ rapture/ and who the bride is. ;-)
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Post by boraddict on Nov 2, 2020 23:16:59 GMT -6
disciple4life , I love your comment about the "White-washed tombs." I remember they are also called "whited sepulchers." I looked it up and it is Matt. 23:27. One thing that I would like to point out is that everyone uses the term "Judah" for "Israel." To this day I do not understand why this technical error is repeated by almost everyone. It is like calling the United States, America. America is two continents: north and south. The United States is one of three countries in North America. Likewise, Judah is one of twelve tribes. In fact, the twelve tribes are called Israel (10 tribes) and Judah (2 tribes) in much of the OT. So at most Judah can be used to reference two tribes, but not all twelve. Here is an example that I saw as I was reading in 1 Kings after JD referenced that book in his latest Prophecy Update. 1 Kings 1:35, "Then ye shall come up after him, that he may come and sit upon my throne; for he shall be king in my stead: and I have appointed him to be ruler over Israel and over Judah.” As you can see, there is the 10 northern tribes called Israel and the two lower tribes called Judah during king David's reign. Not that it really matters, but I am always surprised that we being so technical with scripture allow this huge error in our common lexicon. Just look at Isaiah whom repeatedly provides the distinction between the two: Isa. 1:1, “The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.” Of course true to his form Isaiah uses a metaphor to reference Israel (Jerusalem). Which I might add is reasonable when considering that the seat of the Savior's holy city is Jerusalem and the people of his seat are Israel. Isaiah is so awesome. post script: Often the name Ephraim is substituted for the 10 northern tribes. Thus, Israel is used to reference all 12 tribes; or, the ten tribes of the northern kingdom that is also called Ephraim. Also, Ephraim can be used to reference the ten northern tribes or the tribe of Ephraim exclusively. Judah on the other hand is never used in the OT or NT to represent Israel (all 12 tribes) or Ephraim (the ten northern tribes). However, here in the latter days the name Judah is used to reference the 12 tribes, the two southern tribes, and the one tribe; but, that usage is not technically correct.
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Post by disciple4life on Nov 3, 2020 6:58:51 GMT -6
It's a very good explanation on the 12 tribes. I've never seen one so clear and concise. Thanks, Bora. ;-) I'll try to be clear in the future to make the distinction. But I think you would agree that they are the 12 tribes/12 sons of Jacob- Jews/Hebrews Amiright? We talk about The "time of Jacob's trouble"- and not Ryan's or Ashley's trouble and Jacob being Israel- the Jews.[Non-Gentile] They are listed by the 12 Hebrew tribes. That's what I was trying to illustrate regarding the 144,000 sealed Group of Jews. Also, venge, I've thought a lot about it, and there is the possibility that the rapture is not pre-trib. If that is the case, then the millions of watchmen [feels like a few thousand] will all know by the trigger that starts the 70th week, most likely the Ezek 38 war, and or start of 3rd temple or we see 2 witnesses walking around and Instagram burns up. In other words it will be so obvious, that I don't think there would even be a discussion. ;-) |
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Post by venge on Nov 3, 2020 7:28:44 GMT -6
Here's a question I ran across...if the church goes through all of it, who is left to populate the Millennial Kingdom? If all believers (Jew and Gentile) get glorified bodies, and the evil doers are all cast out, who is left? Who are the blessed ones that make it to the 1335 days? People survive. Remember, Noah, Lot, the Jews in Egypt during the plagues all were here for God's wrath but were not part of God's wrath because he saved them out of it. Noah was over the waters, Lot was removed from those waters, the Jews went through the waters that stood up on each side. The inhabitants of Canaan (not all were removed) during the siege by the Jews remained even though they were wicked and should have been removed "out of the Jews future kingdom". Up to the end, the same AC Kingdom is fighting other nations. He hears signs tidings coming from the east and north that bother him. So, it would not surprise me that there may exist countless millions just in his area and more so throughout the world. No doubt, I think we all agree that there will be bloodshed and loss of life at this time. But the world will always have people in it. Whether large amounts all over, or a remnant to go on. So there are nations that attack and nations that do not attack. Then we have survivors from all nations (that attacked Israel...were most likely wicked and eventually change and recognize Christ).....Blessed are they... EDIT: Also look at Isaiah 18 Notice, what happens before the harvest, which is the end of the world. Then for me, it appears as a picture of the wedding supper. I know this is a picture of the past...but also..it can have future implications by understanding the chronological portion of it. Lastly, we see these people change and now offer themselves to God. And so it shall be in the end of things. |
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