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Post by venge on Dec 16, 2020 8:33:24 GMT -6
In the throne room of heaven, we see God sitting on his throne and 24 elders sit on 24 thrones circling God's throne.
As we progress forward in the image, Christ comes onto the scene and he inherits the throne. He then promises anyone that overcomes stumbling blocks he details in the Church, will sit with him.
There is a difference which believers sit on whose throne. The elders thrones are round about God's throne. God and Christ share the throne as Father and son. As children of God, Christ tells us we will sit with him on his throne. Would the 24 Elders be subject to those who overcome and sit on the throne as they are subject to Christ who had overcome?
God and Christ share the throne and those who overcome share with Christ, but understand God will always be above all even when we overcome. I need to stress that point so not to confuse. As overcomers, we are "one" with Christ as Christ is one with God. The issue is, the 24 elders don't sit with Christ or God on their throne. Those who overcome do sit with Christ.
Something to think about.
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Post by mike on Dec 16, 2020 9:02:00 GMT -6
venge I was reading this morning in Hebrews and something I consider peculiar stuck out to me. While its not the same thing you are saying, it is something to think about. In the "hall of faith" chapter of Heb 11:32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: 33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:What is the better resurrection? Is the writer comparing an earthly deliverance with the final exaltation of our new bodies? Just wonder what thoughts we have here. What struck me was the torture and death of these brothers and forefathers - they endured hardships and killing in favor of retaining their faith even though they only saw it a far off.
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Post by Natalie on Dec 16, 2020 12:15:24 GMT -6
This is actually one of the things I agree with you on, venge. I don't believe the 24 elders are the Church or part of the Church. |
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ksteven
Layman
Posts: 58
Favorite Verse: Philippians 4:6-7
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Post by ksteven on Dec 16, 2020 13:15:07 GMT -6
venge , I have never understood the idea that the church is the 24 elders. I always assumed they would be 12 and 12 listed in old an new testaments. My Mind set was always that it would be either one from each tribe of Israel, and the 12 apostles, or 12 OT "favored" and the apostles. (12 who awaited Messiah, and 12 who met Messiah). Perhaps: Enoch Noah Abraham Jacob Moses Daniel Elijah (*had Samuel listed, but Elijah was "taken up" like Enoch, and would be a better fit)David Isaiah Ezekiel Solomon Jeremiah and the apostles (not Judas, but Matthias). But I have no scriptural evidence to back that. Just the idea of 12 and 12. (Old and New Covenants)
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Post by venge on Dec 18, 2020 8:27:23 GMT -6
This is actually one of the things I agree with you on, venge . I don't believe the 24 elders are the Church or part of the Church. lol. Just the way you phrase that Natalie...makes me laugh. I love you sister. We may not agree on all things, but I know deep down, you have a thirst and love for God in your heart. But I don't want to argue who they are, what they sing etc...I just find it peculiar that I missed this little detail before and now that I had seen it, I wanted to ask others what they thought. |
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Post by venge on Dec 18, 2020 8:35:22 GMT -6
venge , I have never understood the idea that the church is the 24 elders. I always assumed they would be 12 and 12 listed in old an new testaments. My Mind set was always that it would be either one from each tribe of Israel, and the 12 apostles, or 12 OT "favored" and the apostles. (12 who awaited Messiah, and 12 who met Messiah). Perhaps: Enoch Noah Abraham Jacob Moses Daniel Elijah (*had Samuel listed, but Elijah was "taken up" like Enoch, and would be a better fit)David Isaiah Ezekiel Solomon Jeremiah and the apostles (not Judas, but Matthias). But I have no scriptural evidence to back that. Just the idea of 12 and 12. (Old and New Covenants) , Only one issue with that, John would have saw himself and the other 11. He didnt. That rules out the apostles. He doesnt recognize any of them (the elders). But I find it strange, those who overcome sit with Christ on the throne judging the nations and ruling the earth with a rod of iron. They arnt sitting on thrones round about the "throne" where Christ sits. Christ brings us to his table, he brings us to his throne. There is an equal-ness to this. The Elder's throw their crowns before him. Thats subjection. Now yes, Christ is King and I believe when we rule with him, he is still King. But the Elder's are still subject and we were dont see to be having overcome the world as he did. |
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Post by venge on Dec 18, 2020 8:40:45 GMT -6
venge I was reading this morning in Hebrews and something I consider peculiar stuck out to me. While its not the same thing you are saying, it is something to think about. In the "hall of faith" chapter of Heb 11:32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: 33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:What is the better resurrection? Is the writer comparing an earthly deliverance with the final exaltation of our new bodies? Just wonder what thoughts we have here. What struck me was the torture and death of these brothers and forefathers - they endured hardships and killing in favor of retaining their faith even though they only saw it a far off. I had to think on this and then look at some commentary. I hadnt contemplated this question before you asked. But, I think the better resurrection is the everlasting one shared with Christ and God rather then, That is, they resurrected back to their life in the flesh. Mortality and corruptness. Their resurrection was not blessed, though their loved ones were happy for a time. They would still die. But those to the resurrection of life would be incorruptible and get the victory over death; whereas a fleshly resurrection would still suffer death. |
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ksteven
Layman
Posts: 58
Favorite Verse: Philippians 4:6-7
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Post by ksteven on Dec 18, 2020 10:41:07 GMT -6
venge , I have never understood the idea that the church is the 24 elders. I always assumed they would be 12 and 12 listed in old an new testaments. My Mind set was always that it would be either one from each tribe of Israel, and the 12 apostles, or 12 OT "favored" and the apostles. (12 who awaited Messiah, and 12 who met Messiah). Perhaps: Enoch Noah Abraham Jacob Moses Daniel Elijah (*had Samuel listed, but Elijah was "taken up" like Enoch, and would be a better fit)David Isaiah Ezekiel Solomon Jeremiah and the apostles (not Judas, but Matthias). But I have no scriptural evidence to back that. Just the idea of 12 and 12. (Old and New Covenants) , Only one issue with that, John would have saw himself and the other 11. He didnt. That rules out the apostles. He doesnt recognize any of them (the elders). But I find it strange, those who overcome sit with Christ on the throne judging the nations and ruling the earth with a rod of iron. They arnt sitting on thrones round about the "throne" where Christ sits. Christ brings us to his table, he brings us to his throne. There is an equal-ness to this. The Elder's throw their crowns before him. Thats subjection. Now yes, Christ is King and I believe when we rule with him, he is still King. But the Elder's are still subject and we were dont see to be having overcome the world as he did. , You make a very good point there, although it could be that he does not recognize anyone there because they have been (at that point in the vision) clothed in glory and appear different than in their flesh as he had seen them prior. Or he is not meant to know who they are at that time, and was only to be recording events, not people. I think about after Jesus resurrection in Luke 24: 13That very day two of them were going to a village named Emmaus, about seven miles from Jerusalem, 14and they were talking with each other about all these things that had happened. 15While they were talking and discussing together, Jesus himself drew near and went with them. 16But their eyes were kept from recognizing him...though that is admittedly a unique situation, and it specifically mentions that "their eyes are kept from recognizing him." I'll admit its a stretch, but still think it possible. |
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Post by Gary on Dec 21, 2020 9:31:18 GMT -6
Good thoughts everyone. This past weekend I worked on another video, although Mr. Jeff wasn't with me this time. One of the topics was the 24 elders:
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servantofthelord
Truth Seeker
Come, Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.
Posts: 164
Favorite Verse: Anything from John
Favorite Song: Feelin Good!- Nina Simone
Favorite Animal: Blue, my mini schnauzer
Favorite Food: potatoes
Dream Vacation: To actually go on one, never been
Profession: Artist/Poet/Carpenter/Servant
Denomination: Servant of all
I'm From: All over
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Post by servantofthelord on Jul 18, 2021 20:33:32 GMT -6
Not sure if this will help or confuse, but the word used here for the number of elders is "Eikosi" which is listed to mean 20. However it is translated in scripture as 3, 20,24 and 23. So, I'm not too sure if 24 is an exactly known number, since the book was written in Greek and the word has no precisely listed "number" associated. But it is translated as 24 in the NT more often than the other numbers.
there is also this 2 Samuel 7:16-17 "Your house and your kingdom shall endure before Me forever ; your throne shall be established forever .""' In accordance with all these words and all this vision, so Nathan spoke to David.
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Post by Gary on Jul 19, 2021 8:25:38 GMT -6
We get the 24 from εἴκοσι (20) τέσσαρες (4). These Greek words have no other meaning in Scripture.
Blessings.
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servantofthelord
Truth Seeker
Come, Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.
Posts: 164
Favorite Verse: Anything from John
Favorite Song: Feelin Good!- Nina Simone
Favorite Animal: Blue, my mini schnauzer
Favorite Food: potatoes
Dream Vacation: To actually go on one, never been
Profession: Artist/Poet/Carpenter/Servant
Denomination: Servant of all
I'm From: All over
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Post by servantofthelord on Jul 19, 2021 11:46:54 GMT -6
We get the 24 from εἴκοσι (20) τέσσαρες (4). These Greek words have no other meaning in Scripture. Blessings. Thanks Gary. I had used an online bible linked to Strong's first. It only listed the εἴκοσι, but after your post I looked at my greek bible and my interlinear and they both showed 20 and four, not 24 as the online did. Old school eyes on paper pays off. Appreciate the correction. |
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