|
|
Post by Gary on Sept 13, 2022 8:03:54 GMT -6
|
|
rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
|
Post by rondonmonson on Sept 26, 2022 7:03:24 GMT -6
Overall very good work product brother Gary, I see we are both pr trib. Let my try on for size a couple of different possibilities to see what you think. I think verses 1-5 is a flashback (just like Rev. 14:14 is a flashback to the pre trib rapture) and is God giving us a simple code to work with, The Dragon (Satan), the Woman (Israel/Gen. 37:9), and the Male Child/Jesus, who I see as Satan trying to devour Jesus because he got King Herod to issue a decree to have all male children under 2 to be killed, but Jesus fled via Mary and Joseph because God forewarned them.
Everything after that is future events or as Rev. 4:1 tells us, the "Hereafter" or post Church Age. I think the labor was Israel birthing Jesus, not the coming tribulation per se. But the main point of emphasis I wanted to run by you was something the Lord showed me a couple of years ago. The Remnant proves a pre trib Rapture (Smile) of we understand who they are. The Remnant can not be Jews, they are the Remnant (Gentile) Church on earth after the Rapture. We can see this by deducing who they can not be.
The Dragon can not get at The Woman so he turns and goes after the Remnant who HAS the testimony of Jesus and keeps the commandments of God. Firstly, the 1/3 who repent (5 million Jews) are protected in the Petra/Bozrah area, this gets Satan and his thug Anti-Christ mad so he turns and goes after the Remnant. Now, what is a remnant? A small piece of a whole like unto a torn sleeve of a dress etc. So, we know the 1/3 can not be this remnant, she is protected by God Himself. We know the 2/3 of the Jews who do not repent can not be the remnant by the very descriptors given unto us in verse 17, she has not the "Testimony of Jesus nor does she keep the Commandments of God", remember, these are the Jews who refused to repent and Zechariah 13:8-9 says will be cut-off (die). They also are 2/3 and 2/3 can't be a remnant. That means the Remnant will be all of those Gentiles who have repented during the 70th week trib, they will mostly be Martyred, because God is not going to protect them, God has to protect Israel in order to have a Jewish Kingdom Nation ready for Jesus to rule over for 1000 years. We know 1/3 of the world will be destroyed by fire, so unto all of those who miss the Wedding call, there will be weeping a gnashing of teeth. We need to be ready brother.
Rev. 12:16 And the earth helped the woman(Israel, like in Egypt/Fire/Sea Parts), and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood(Anti-Christs Army) which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed(Jesus is her seed as Gal. chapter 3 says), which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
The red portion means this can not be the 2/3 Jews who refused to repent, and verse 16 means it can not be the 1/3 of the Jews who do repent because God protects them and Satan leaves off trying to get at them. That means it can only be the Gentile Church who repent after the Rapture, which helps proves the pre trib Rapture.
THOUGHTS?
|
|
|
|
Post by yardstick on Sept 26, 2022 19:20:31 GMT -6
... That means the Remnant will be all of those Gentiles who have repented during the 70th week trib, they will mostly be Martyred, because God is not going to protect them, God has to protect Israel in order to have a Jewish Kingdom Nation ready for Jesus to rule over for 1000 years... THOUGHTS? Rather than imply that God is incapable of protecting them, because he is too busy protecting Israel; I suggest the real reason for God allowing them to be martyred is that their martyrdom IS their witness. Thus, God allows their martydom. FWIW, that martyrdom is how they will be distinguished in Heaven: Rev 14:13 and Rev 7:9-end What do you think? |
|
rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
|
Post by rondonmonson on Sept 27, 2022 10:18:50 GMT -6
... That means the Remnant will be all of those Gentiles who have repented during the 70th week trib, they will mostly be Martyred, because God is not going to protect them, God has to protect Israel in order to have a Jewish Kingdom Nation ready for Jesus to rule over for 1000 years... THOUGHTS? Rather than imply that God is incapable of protecting them, because he is too busy protecting Israel; I suggest the real reason for God allowing them to be martyred is that their martyrdom IS their witness. Thus, God allows their martydom. FWIW, that martyrdom is how they will be distinguished in Heaven: Rev 14:13 and Rev 7:9-end What do you think? Good morning Yardstick, hope you are having a blessed day, may not be morning where you are at. God would be capable, but I think that is via the Rapture, the Church is indeed protected via a pre trib rapture, but Jesus/God promised Abraham a continual seed, Jesus has to rule over Israel during the Kingdom Age, so God has to save Israel as a nation on earth during Jesus' reign both because of His promise and His future plans of a Kingdom Age in Jerusalem. Since Israel's blindness as a nation remains until the two witnesses show up, they must be protected. If they were all raptured, there could then be no Kingdom Age. Its God's plan, that's why he turned the mantle of taking the gospel of the whole world over unto the Gentiles for nigh 2000 years, plus Israel's continued sinning. Yes indeed in Rev. 14:13 those who die for Christs name during the 70th week trib will be blessed as Rev. 20:4 says. Only those who are refuse the Beast (70th week conversion saints) will rule on earth with Jesus for his 1000 year reign. But as per Rev. 7:9-17, they can't be 70th week saints, they can only be the Pre Trib Raptured church because of the verbiage seen elsewhere. In the 5th Seal those martyrs are told they will not get vengeance until all of their brothers have died in like manner. ( Meaning until the Beasts 42 month rule is finished) Then we see in Rev. 20:4 that those same Martyrs are only raised and judged after Jesus' Second Coming, so who are those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 ? Well, they came out of great tribulation, we over associate words and thus deny or pigeonhole God's vocabulary. Those in Rev. 7:9-17 (I finally saw this after 30 years) can thus only have come out of the Church Age Tribulation, I understood this when I saw Seal #5 and Rev. 20:4 meant they couldn't be from the 70th week tribulation period so I wondered what kind of tribulation were they from. Then I remembered Jesus stated ALL TIME on this earth is tribulation in John 16:33. And we know the Church has overcome Satan by our blood, millions of Christians have shed their blood for the furtherance of the gospel, Amen. So, John is simply seeing the Pre Trib Raptured Church in Heaven in Rev. 7:9-17, we simply can not see it because our minds have associated "Great Tribulation" as being only the 70th week tribulation because its the greatest ever troubles, but the Church Age lasted 2000 years (it will be over by then) and 2000 is greater than 7. There are various ways of using great. Only the Raptured Church fits because of Seal #5 and Rev. 20:4, no one from the 70th week gets raptured, we will be raised and Judged only after the Second Coming of Jesus. The reason Jesus tells us to be ready is so we will not face the tribulation. If one of Noah's sons had missed getting on the Ark, he may have made heaven, but the flood would have taken him out. We need to be ready, those who repent during the 70th week will indeed have a rough time, which is why those who say the Rapture is mid or post trib kind of put people into a bad situation. If I was young I might say, well, we all have to through the Trib anyway, I might as well wait and worry about it then, but many people will break, they will not starve, they will not lay their lives down, they will instead serve the Beast out if fear. So, they need to be saved beforehand, Amen. Basically, I believe many of the Martyrs will be the 5 Brides left behind at the wedding call. Well, I am going to wall paper my 87 year old moms bathroom today, OH BOY...........Sounds like fun, lol. Have a blessed day. |
|
|
|
Post by yardstick on Sept 28, 2022 19:04:23 GMT -6
Rather than imply that God is incapable of protecting them, because he is too busy protecting Israel; I suggest the real reason for God allowing them to be martyred is that their martyrdom IS their witness. Thus, God allows their martydom. FWIW, that martyrdom is how they will be distinguished in Heaven: Rev 14:13 and Rev 7:9-end What do you think? Good morning Yardstick, hope you are having a blessed day, may nit be morning where you are at. God would be capable, but I think that is via the Rapture, the Church is indeed protected via a pre trib rapture, but Jesus/God promised Abraham a continual seed, Jesus has to rule over Israel during the Kingdom Age, so God has to save Israel as a nation both because of His promise and His future plans of a Kingdom Age in Jerusalem. Since Israel's blindness as a nation remains until the two witnesses show up, they must be protected, also if they were all raptured, there could then be no Kingdom Age. Its God's plan, that's why he turned the mantle of taking the gospel of the whole world over unto the Gentiles for nigh 2000 years. Yes indeed in Rev. 14:13 those who die for Christs name during the 70th week trib will be blessed as Rev. 20:4 says. Only those who are refuse the Beast (70th week conversion saints) will rule on earth with Jesus for his 1000 year reign. But as per Rev. 7:9-17, they can't be 70th week saints, they can only be the Pre Trib Raptured church because of the verbiage. In the 5th Seal those martyrs are told they will not get vengeance until all of their brothers have died in like manner. ( Meaning until the Beasts 42 month rule is finished) Then we see in Rev. 20:4 that those same Martyrs are only raised and judged after Jesus' Second Coming, so who are those seen in Rev. 7:9-17? Well, they came out of great tribulation, we over associate words and thus deny pr pigeonhole God's vocabulary. Those in Rev. 7:9-17 (I finally saw this after 30 years) can thus only have come out of the Church Age Tribulation, I understood this when I saw Seal #5 an d Rev. 20:4 meant they couldn't be from the 70th week tribulation period so I wondered what kind of tribulation were they from. Then I remembered Jesus stated ALL TIME on this earth is tribulation in John 16:33. And we know the Church has overcome Satan by our blood, millions of Christians have shed their blood for the furtherance of the gospel, Amen. So, John is simply seeing the Pre Trib Raptured Church in Heaven in Rev. 7:9-17, we simply can not see it because our minds have associated "Great Tribulation" as being only the 70th week tribulation because its the greatest ever troubles, but the Church Age lasted 2000 years (it will be over by then) and 2000 is greater than 7. There are various ways of using great. Only the Raptured Church fits because of Seal #5 and Rev. 20"4, no one from the 70th week gets raptured, we will be raised and Judged only after the Second Coming of Jesus. The reason Jesus us to be ready is so we will not face the tribulation. If one of Noah's sons had missed getting on the Ark, he may have made heaven, but the flood would have taken him out. We need to be ready, those who repent during the 70th week will indeed have a rough time, which is why those who say the Rapture is mid or post trib kind of put people into a bad situation. If I was young I might say, well, we all have to through the Trib anyway, I might as well wait and worry about it then, but any will break, they will not starve, they will not lay their lives down, they will instead serve the Beast out if fear. So, they need to be saved beforehand, Amen. Basically, I believe many of the Martyrs will be the 5 Brides left behind at the wedding call. Well, I am going to wall paper my 87 year old moms bathroom today, OH BOY...........Sounds like fun, lol. Have a blessed day. I guess I am trying to make the distinction between the pre-trib raptured saints, the house of Israel that goes through the time of Jacob's Trouble (that which we call the tribulation) and the post-rapture tribulation saints who also go through the Tribulation. Noting that some saints will die before the Tribulation (capital T, the last 3-1/2 years; having been hunted down by the AC) and during the tribulation (lower case t, first 3-1/2 years; death by 'natural' disaster, or murder). The former will not be in need of God's protection because we are gone; The house of Israel will have but a remnant left (about 1/3, I agree with you on this, that flee into the wilderness and are protected); and Those who must 'earn' their salvation by way of martyrdom during the Tribulation (capital T) when they are being hunted down by the AC's minions (Rev 14:13 - "...from now on..."). It is this last group which I believe is referred to in the passages I presented; though I excluded Rev 14:12, and 12:17 which (I believe) are also relevant. I believe I agree with the perspective you presented in another thread where you demonstrated that the Rev 6 seal 'judgments' are prophetic in nature, rather than narrative in nature; and so the saints shown therein must be same as the saints from Rev 7 and 14 above. They are just the ones who died before the last one was killed/second coming (the jury is still out on whether some [T]rib saints will make it to the second coming - I think there will be some). Hence their cry for vengeance, which is satisfied in Rev 19 (note also Rev 7:16- hunger, thirst, lack of shelter while living during the Great Trib). What I see in Rev 7:14 is that those who are described have come "...out of the great tribulation..." This phrase has always referred to the last 3-1/2 years of the 7 year tribulation period from everything I have read or heard. If so, then these must be the trib saints that were martyred by the AC, rather than those who died in the first half of the tribulation via murder or 'natural' catastrophes (and incidentally, in this passage they DO do more than be just martyrs (Rev 12:17 - keep God's commands and hold fast to their testimony); AND they have a different reward than each of the other categories of believer (raptured, pre-great-trib) Firstly, if the word 'great' wasn't in there with the article "the" indicating a distinct type ("...out of the great tribulation..." - it is a 'highlander' event - there can be only one) , I could otherwise agree with you on that point. Thus, I offer for your consideration the above distinction between those believers who die in the first half of the tribulation, and those who die in the last half; and that those seen under the altar are prophetically shown, not historically shown. I do not believe the word 'great' would be in there if it was the perpetual tribulation that all saints have endured in the past and yet to come. Secondly, prophecies (by definition) must be given prior to an event transpiring - the event in question being the opening of the 5th seal. A pre-trib harpazo event must also, by definition, occur prior to any of the seals being broken. If the harpazo occurs before the 5th seal is broken, those saints who have died prior to the 5th seal being opened must have already been taken up per 1 Thessalonians 4. If so, then they cannot be under the altar, correct? The alternative is a mid-trib/pre-wrath harpazo, where the seals (through the 5th) are broken during the first half; thus making the 5th seal prophetic and applicable to ALL deceased saints because the harpazo has not yet occurred, but then must occur just after seal 5 or mid-trib. Lastly, if those under the altar were believers who had died prior to the 7 year tribulation period, but after the vision was given, how does one explain those believers who were martyred before the vision was given? Prophecies are futuristic in nature, not historic. Per 1 Thessalonians 4, wouldnt they also already have been in Heaven (raptured before those believers who are still alive are taken up); and prior to the 5th seal being opened? I think I should suggest here that the prophecy of Rev 6 is a prophecy of the opening of the seals. Independent of that prophecy: If the seals themselves are also prophetic (and I think you are correct in this), then the events described as each seal is open is a separate prophetic event, and must be describing events that occur after they are opened, not before. Thus, those saints under the 5th seal altar must not have died yet. If the opened seals were not describing prophecies themselves, I can see how it could be interpreted that the 5th seal martyred believers are historic believers, not future (post-harpazo) believers. I think it would be fruitful to this discussion for research to be done on what each category of believer wears and what their duties are. I think there is a thread with some information about this - though the focus is on the clothing, not the duties. I hope I have explained my understanding/belief above as cordially as possible. Thanks for reading this. |
|
rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
|
Post by rondonmonson on Sept 29, 2022 10:06:23 GMT -6
Good morning Yardstick, hope you are having a blessed day, may nit be morning where you are at. God would be capable, but I think that is via the Rapture, the Church is indeed protected via a pre trib rapture, but Jesus/God promised Abraham a continual seed, Jesus has to rule over Israel during the Kingdom Age, so God has to save Israel as a nation both because of His promise and His future plans of a Kingdom Age in Jerusalem. Since Israel's blindness as a nation remains until the two witnesses show up, they must be protected, also if they were all raptured, there could then be no Kingdom Age. Its God's plan, that's why he turned the mantle of taking the gospel of the whole world over unto the Gentiles for nigh 2000 years. Yes indeed in Rev. 14:13 those who die for Christs name during the 70th week trib will be blessed as Rev. 20:4 says. Only those who are refuse the Beast (70th week conversion saints) will rule on earth with Jesus for his 1000 year reign. But as per Rev. 7:9-17, they can't be 70th week saints, they can only be the Pre Trib Raptured church because of the verbiage. In the 5th Seal those martyrs are told they will not get vengeance until all of their brothers have died in like manner. ( Meaning until the Beasts 42 month rule is finished) Then we see in Rev. 20:4 that those same Martyrs are only raised and judged after Jesus' Second Coming, so who are those seen in Rev. 7:9-17? Well, they came out of great tribulation, we over associate words and thus deny pr pigeonhole God's vocabulary. Those in Rev. 7:9-17 (I finally saw this after 30 years) can thus only have come out of the Church Age Tribulation, I understood this when I saw Seal #5 an d Rev. 20:4 meant they couldn't be from the 70th week tribulation period so I wondered what kind of tribulation were they from. Then I remembered Jesus stated ALL TIME on this earth is tribulation in John 16:33. And we know the Church has overcome Satan by our blood, millions of Christians have shed their blood for the furtherance of the gospel, Amen. So, John is simply seeing the Pre Trib Raptured Church in Heaven in Rev. 7:9-17, we simply can not see it because our minds have associated "Great Tribulation" as being only the 70th week tribulation because its the greatest ever troubles, but the Church Age lasted 2000 years (it will be over by then) and 2000 is greater than 7. There are various ways of using great. Only the Raptured Church fits because of Seal #5 and Rev. 20"4, no one from the 70th week gets raptured, we will be raised and Judged only after the Second Coming of Jesus. The reason Jesus us to be ready is so we will not face the tribulation. If one of Noah's sons had missed getting on the Ark, he may have made heaven, but the flood would have taken him out. We need to be ready, those who repent during the 70th week will indeed have a rough time, which is why those who say the Rapture is mid or post trib kind of put people into a bad situation. If I was young I might say, well, we all have to through the Trib anyway, I might as well wait and worry about it then, but any will break, they will not starve, they will not lay their lives down, they will instead serve the Beast out if fear. So, they need to be saved beforehand, Amen. Basically, I believe many of the Martyrs will be the 5 Brides left behind at the wedding call. Well, I am going to wall paper my 87 year old moms bathroom today, OH BOY...........Sounds like fun, lol. Have a blessed day. I guess I am trying to make the distinction between the pre-trib raptured saints, the house of Israel that goes through the time of Jacob's Trouble (that which we call the tribulation) and the post-rapture tribulation saints who also go through the Tribulation. Noting that some saints will die before the Tribulation (capital T, the last 3-1/2 years; having been hunted down by the AC) and during the tribulation (lower case t, first 3-1/2 years; death by 'natural' disaster, or murder). The former will not be in need of God's protection because we are gone; The house of Israel will have but a remnant left (about 1/3, I agree with you on this, that flee into the wilderness and are protected); and Those who must 'earn' their salvation by way of martyrdom during the Tribulation (capital T) when they are being hunted down by the AC's minions (Rev 14:13 - "...from now on..."). It is this last group which I believe is referred to in the passages I presented; though I excluded Rev 14:12, and 12:17 which (I believe) are also relevant. I believe I agree with the perspective you presented in another thread where you demonstrated that the Rev 6 seal 'judgments' are prophetic in nature, rather than narrative in nature; and so the saints shown therein must be same as the saints from Rev 7 and 14 above. They are just the ones who died before the last one was killed/second coming (the jury is still out on whether some [T]rib saints will make it to the second coming - I think there will be some). Hence their cry for vengeance, which is satisfied in Rev 19 (note also Rev 7:16- hunger, thirst, lack of shelter while living during the Great Trib). What I see in Rev 7:14 is that those who are described have come "...out of the great tribulation..." This phrase has always referred to the last 3-1/2 years of the 7 year tribulation period from everything I have read or heard. If so, then these must be the trib saints that were martyred by the AC, rather than those who died in the first half of the tribulation via murder or 'natural' catastrophes (and incidentally, in this passage they DO do more than be just martyrs (Rev 12:17 - keep God's commands and hold fast to their testimony); AND they have a different reward than each of the other categories of believer (raptured, pre-great-trib) Firstly, if the word 'great' wasn't in there with the article "the" indicating a distinct type ("...out of the great tribulation..." - it is a 'highlander' event - there can be only one) , I could otherwise agree with you on that point. Thus, I offer for your consideration the above distinction between those believers who die in the first half of the tribulation, and those who die in the last half; and that those seen under the altar are prophetically shown, not historically shown. I do not believe the word 'great' would be in there if it was the perpetual tribulation that all saints have endured in the past and yet to come. Secondly, prophecies (by definition) must be given prior to an event transpiring - the event in question being the opening of the 5th seal. A pre-trib harpazo event must also, by definition, occur prior to any of the seals being broken. If the harpazo occurs before the 5th seal is broken, those saints who have died prior to the 5th seal being opened must have already been taken up per 1 Thessalonians 4. If so, then they cannot be under the altar, correct? The alternative is a mid-trib/pre-wrath harpazo, where the seals (through the 5th) are broken during the first half; thus making the 5th seal prophetic and applicable to ALL deceased saints because the harpazo has not yet occurred, but then must occur just after seal 5 or mid-trib. Lastly, if those under the altar were believers who had died prior to the 7 year tribulation period, but after the vision was given, how does one explain those believers who were martyred before the vision was given? Prophecies are futuristic in nature, not historic. Per 1 Thessalonians 4, wouldnt they also already have been in Heaven (raptured before those believers who are still alive are taken up); and prior to the 5th seal being opened? I think I should suggest here that the prophecy of Rev 6 is a prophecy of the opening of the seals. Independent of that prophecy: If the seals themselves are also prophetic (and I think you are correct in this), then the events described as each seal is open is a separate prophetic event, and must be describing events that occur after they are opened, not before. Thus, those saints under the 5th seal altar must not have died yet. If the opened seals were not describing prophecies themselves, I can see how it could be interpreted that the 5th seal martyred believers are historic believers, not future (post-harpazo) believers. I think it would be fruitful to this discussion for research to be done on what each category of believer wears and what their duties are. I think there is a thread with some information about this - though the focus is on the clothing, not the duties. I hope I have explained my understanding/belief above as cordially as possible. Thanks for reading this. Good morning Yardstick. Feeling a little under the weather, think I got dehydrated. Rev. 7:14 says they came out of great tribulation, I don't think it says "The Great Trib" at least not in t KJV. Its semantics anyway. As per the 5th Seal Martyrs they are indeed from the 70th week, not pre trib Saints, that is my whole point. They desire vengeance from those who are ON EARTH, who killed them, but Jesus who is prophesying what he will soon say to them (which I think is just God knowing their every thought, not a real conversation). Jesus says to them tat they (70th week Martyrs) MUST WAIT, until all of their brothers (Saints living during the Anti-Christs reign) have been killed in like manner. Which means they can nor be raptured at that time. they MUST WAIT for their vengeance until the A.C. reign is over. Rev. 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. They have to wait until the Anti-Christs rule of 42 months is over before they can get their vengeance, see my point? Then in Rev. 20:4 we actually see these Martyrs raised and judged but only after the Second Coming. This is why I say those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 can only be from the great tribulation of the Church Age period. We are hung up on the word great tribulation, you can have the Greatest ever troubles and other periods can still be great tribulation. Those seen in Rev. 7 can not be from the 70th week because Jesus tells those under the altar (70th week saints........we agree) they can not get vengeance, they MUST WAIT a little season (The Beasts 42 month rule) until all of the brothers have been killed in like manner. Then in Rev. 20:4 we see tat ONLY those killed because they refused the ark of the Beast will live and reign with Jesus for 1000 years on this earth, meaning I suppose those Pre Trib Rapture Saints will go back to heaven to help finish off the New Jerusalem. Now as per people killed during the first 3.5 years, I do not think the Anti-Christ is allowed to go forth until the last 3.5 years. I think he just puts forth a fake "peace type plan" in the first 3.5 years, which is really not any big plan, its just the European Neighborhood Policy (read about it an Wikipedia). So, the E.U. currently has 7 year agreements (I joke not) with Israel, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Tunisia. Libya, Morocco and Algeria. This has been ongoing for near 20 years. In the end here is what happens, Israel simply joins the E.U. that is the Daniel 9:27 "Agreement" or covenant they sign with the Anti-Christ. Look up the European Neighborhood Policy on Wikipedia, then look at the map of all the nations the E.U. has contingency plans with, and then look at an old Roman Empire map, they look exactly the same for a reason, Dan. 11:40-43 shows is why, the Anti-Christ (E.U. President) will conquer the whole Mediterranean Sea Region save for the Petra and Bozrah area. You are always cordial my dear friend in Christ. |
|
|
|
Post by rt on Oct 10, 2022 12:58:58 GMT -6
Gary, Hi Gary, I haven't visited the site in a while and just had the chance to read your post. I pretty much agree with most of what you said. Here's my take: Let me know your thoughts, I wrote this in response to a question a friend had concerning the dragon/ Satan: So there are different takes on the dragon in Revelation 12. Many people associate this “fall” with the original fall of Satan and it is where some get the idea that 1/3 of the angels fell with him. There are others who see it as a future event tied to the “war in heaven” that is described later in verses 7-9. Of all the commentaries I looked at, most of them do not see it as the original fall of Satan, which I was surprised to find, even Matthew Henry’s commentary. Some say the stars are not angels, but represent the fall of people within the church. That is the nature of prophecy, it is hard to pin down. From my own study, I have found that “stars” can refer to angelic hosts, or earthly hosts or simply a celestial piece of rock. For instance we have the mention of the seven stars in Revelation 2 These “stars”; we are told, represent the “angels” of the seven churches. Most commentaries agree that these “angels” are the leaders or bishops of the seven local churches to whom the letters were written. The word “angel” means “messenger” or “envoy”. So these “stars” would be of the earthly hosts, namely the church. Then you have this in Revelation 8: This seems to be just a star, perhaps an asteroid or meteor. That falls to earth causing physical destruction. Then you have this: This star is definitely one of the heavenly hosts’ varieties, described as “him”. Then again you have these stars: There are commentaries that try to make the claim that this “woman” represents the church. But they fail to define what the stars, sun and moon represent. I think scripture already has defined what or who they represent, look at Joseph’s dream here: The sun, moon and 12 stars (including Joseph) represent the nation of Israel, the woman, in my opinion represents Zion, or Jerusalem, both the earthly and heavenly cities of God. So the stars here are also indicative of an earthly host, namely the 12 tribes of Israel. So we see that in the revelation you have stars representing, earthly hosts, heavenly hosts or angels and physical celestial rocks or objects. There are other mentions of celestial bodies as well in Revelation 8:12, and Jesus Himself in Revelation 22:16 says He is the “bright morning star”. So this creates some confusion regarding just what or who the “stars” are that the dragon casts to earth with His tail. I have a slightly different take on the passage in Revelation 12, I see it as a timeline of events, going back to Daniel’s prophecy of the 70 weeks. The casting down of these stars by the dragon fits with the timing laid out in the scripture, under Antiochus (the tail of the dragon?) as Daniel shows, the Israelites were cast down. This happened roughly 170 years before the birth of Christ. Then the dragon stands before the woman about to give birth to devour her male child upon his delivery. This initially was Satan’s attempt to kill Jesus shortly after His birth, when Herod slew the male children (Matthew 2:13-23) , as well as His crucifixion, when the dragon thought he had gained victory in cutting off the life of the messiah, but he could not prevent His resurrection and His birth into the heavenly Kingdom. You see that it is the redemption of the child that Satan is trying to prevent. He could not stop the “Head” of the Child from being born into the heavenly kingdom, and He will not devour the “body” of the child, the body of Christ, also known as the Church from being born into the heavenly kingdom either. Just as Jesus was caught up, so will those who are part of the body of Christ be. Though the timeline seems to put the flight of the woman directly after the catching up of the child when moving on to the rest of the chapter we are given more clarity, that the woman flees “after” the dragon is cast down to earth (Revelation 12:13-17). So the timeline is as follows: 1. The tail of the dragon sweeps away 1/3 of the hosts (Israel under the rule of Antiochus IV Epiphanes). 2. Satan stands before the woman (Jerusalem/Israel) to devour her male child. Jesus the head plus the body of Christ. This encompasses the gap between Daniel’s 69th and 70th week. 3. Jesus (the head) is caught up to His throne, followed by His body- the church, who is also caught up (the rapture). 4. War breaks out in heaven between Michael and his angels and the Dragon and his angels. 5. The dragon and his angels lose and are cast down to earth. 6. The dragon persecutes the woman. 7. The woman flees to a place of safety prepared for her by God. 8. The dragon becomes enraged and makes war with the rest of the woman’s children. Though parts of this passage had a past fulfillment under Antiochus, according to Jesus who lived after that happened, it will have a future one as well, when authority is given to the mouth of the beast or the “little horn” as Daniel calls him when the Antichrist is indwelled by the beast from the pit and commits the abomination of desolation as spoken of by the prophet Daniel (Matthew 24:15), he will then turn against the “host” or “saints” and trample them down. The birth of the male child encompasses the church age; or the age of grace as we call it. Jesus the head is caught up to His throne and then one day His body will also be caught up to His throne. We know that in a normal childbirth the head is delivered first, followed by the body. The church age, is essentially the birthing process, hence the “birth pains”. It isn’t about the church being born onto the earth, but rather being delivered into heaven via the rapture/ resurrection. What I would say this shows about the dragon, is that he is always standing before us, looking for an opportunity to devour us, which is consistent with:
|
|
