paul
Layman
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son...
Posts: 96 
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Post by paul on Jul 1, 2017 9:28:17 GMT -6
I was wondering about the meaning of the apostasy in 2 Thes 2:3 and asked the Lord about it a month ago. I heard there are some teachings that the apostasy is about Christians forsaking Jesus and staff like that, but I don't accept teachings of so-called Bible professors and "respected" theologians. The Bible says that apostles Peter and John were uneducated and untrained men, but many were astonished by their teachings. The reason is that they had been with Jesus. Personally it is better to spend 1 day with the Lord than 5 years in a Bible college (I have nothing against them). As David said in his Psalm: "For a day in Your courts [is] better than a thousand elsewhere."
I personally don't believe in a born-again Christian turning away from Jesus. It only means that those people never been true believers but the professors (pretenders) of faith.
So I was reading Matthew 24 where Jesus talks about the beginning of sorrows. It is good to mention that the word "sorrows" in Greek literally means "birth pangs". That is the exact translation in my NASB Bible. And when I got to the verse 10, which in my NASB translation says: "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another", I was reminded about my question and was pointed out that this falling away is the apostasy. I know that here is different Greek word, but one of the meaning of the word skandalizo is "to entice to sin, apostasy or displeasure".
The Gospel of Mathew is the Messianic gospel and it was written primarily to the Jews. Jesus talks here about the beginning of birth pangs of the woman, who is the type of Israel. Therefore this apostasy directly connected to the Jews, who are going to turn away on their brethren (This is kind of shocking to me). The word "apostasy" used two times in NT. The second time is in Acts 21:21 and there apostasy is all about turning away from Moses, circumcision and Judaism.
This whole thing just confirms my previous suspicion that Antichrist is of a Jewish origin and I have a good guess who he might be. That is why Paul connected the revelation of the man of sin with the apostasy.
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Post by kjs on Jul 1, 2017 11:44:39 GMT -6
I tend to agree with Scott Clark (and you can read his theory here www.erfministries.com/QnA_4.php ) Primarily, because The Greek word hé means Definition: “the”, the definite article. And that word is just before the word apostasia Which it is something definite like “The Departure” or “The Departing” Whereas if one attempts to call “falling away” an THE You end up with “THE Falling Way “ or put another way a specific kind of Falling away… If there were a particular type of Falling Away – which Christian’s are likely to encounter – why was this particular type mentioned before or even given directions on how to avoid it? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2017 13:19:42 GMT -6
I personally think the Antichrist will be Gentile, because the beast rises out of the sea. Who is your candidate?
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Post by watchmanjim on Jul 1, 2017 21:44:39 GMT -6
I personally think the Antichrist will be Gentile, because the beast rises out of the sea. Who is your candidate? HMMMM! Well, tell you what, I think it will be a big surprise when it happens. Many are jostling for the position, but I doubt if any of the well-known personalities of today will be the guy, though I could be wrong. I could see Trump being the beast from the sea. Then again, I really don't know. As I said, I suspect it will be somebody not too famous today. |
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Post by Gary on Jul 1, 2017 23:17:06 GMT -6
Agreed with kjs. I've seen the arguments for translating apostasia as "apostasy", but it seems to me departure is a more exegetically accurate translation - both directly and especially in light of the definite article and context.
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paul
Layman
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son...
Posts: 96
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Post by paul on Jul 2, 2017 4:27:51 GMT -6
I personally think the Antichrist will be Gentile, because the beast rises out of the sea. Who is your candidate? There is also another one who raises out from the earth and has the horns like a lamb... Many think that antichrist is someone that is against Christ, because of the preposition "anti-". But in Greek "anti-" means also "instead of" or "in place of". That is a person who pretends to be Christ (Messiah) or a false substitute. If the antichrist is Gentile then why Jesus bother to warn Jews about false christs (messiahs)? Jews will never accept Gentile messiah. If someone would say that Jesus warned Christians then I differ. First of all Christians that were of Gentiles didn't wait for any Messiah, because Messiah is pure Hebrew thing. And second of all, all Christians do know who their Messiah, Lord and Savior. His name is Jesus!  They wouldn't accept anybody else, otherwise they wouldn't be Christians after all. Also when John was talking about antichrist and antichtists in 1 John 2:18 he said that "they went out from us" in the following verse. "Out from us" means out from Jews, because John was writing to Jews, for he was an apostle to Jews like James and Peter. And many Gnostics in the 1st Century that were denying that Jesus came in flash were Jews. Then John says that "they were not of us". He just said that they are sheep in wolf's clothing. Personally, the clearest type of antichrist in the Bible is Ananias, whom Peter (rock) killed with words or with the double-edged sword (Spirit) that comes out of his mouth. Peter was the one who liked to use his sword (John 18:10). JK  Likewise the Lord (the Rock) will consume the beast with the breath of His mouth. This Rock will strike the image on its feet of iron and clay, and brake them in pieces. As for my candidate, he is the guy who is planning to handle the peace treaty with Israel this fall. His name in Hebrew means "a descent" or the one who comes from above. There is only one who comes from above (John 3:31) and His name is Jesus. This guy just wants to take the Lord's place and pretends to be the Prince of peace. |
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paul
Layman
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son...
Posts: 96
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Post by paul on Jul 2, 2017 4:37:54 GMT -6
I personally think the Antichrist will be Gentile, because the beast rises out of the sea. Who is your candidate? HMMMM! Well, tell you what, I think it will be a big surprise when it happens. Many are jostling for the position, but I doubt if any of the well-known personalities of today will be the guy, though I could be wrong. I could see Trump being the beast from the sea. Then again, I really don't know. As I said, I suspect it will be somebody not too famous today. Why isn't he familiar today if the peace treaty could be signed this fall? I am surprised that you think that Trump might be the beast. I thought Christians in USA are super-exited about this guy. Some say he could be the next Cyrus the Great or the Lord's Anointed. Is there only one Anointed or Mashiyach?  |
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Post by delo63 on Jul 2, 2017 6:45:08 GMT -6
I still have a hunch that it would either be Francis or someone out of the EU
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Post by watchmanjim on Jul 2, 2017 6:51:17 GMT -6
I think you are probably right, Paul, about the true antichrist being the one known as the false prophet. The beast out of the earth. That one is probably Jewish. However, the beast out of the sea, is the one I suspect could be Trump. The fact that Christians and conservative political types flock to him is part of why I think he might be the one--they are deceived.
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Post by kjs on Jul 2, 2017 7:06:18 GMT -6
While, I have tried to remain respectful to the man, because of the office he holds....
The number of bold face lies he has told, plus the childish Twitter rants he engages in .....
Is getting very unnerving for me ... If he acts this way with just a few unkind words thrown his way.....
How will he react when a real crisis hits?
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paul
Layman
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son...
Posts: 96
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Post by paul on Jul 2, 2017 8:34:13 GMT -6
I tend to agree with Scott Clark (and you can read his theory here www.erfministries.com/QnA_4.php ) Primarily, because The Greek word hé means Definition: “the”, the definite article. And that word is just before the word apostasia Which it is something definite like “The Departure” or “The Departing” Whereas if one attempts to call “falling away” an THE You end up with “THE Falling Way “ or put another way a specific kind of Falling away… If there were a particular type of Falling Away – which Christian’s are likely to encounter – why was this particular type mentioned before or even given directions on how to avoid it? kjs, thank you for the article. It's interesting view of the apostasy. I understand where Clark is coming from. As I mentioned in another tread its easy to make a mistake when we try to apply verses to the Church that were meant for Israel. That's understandable. Israel wasn't around for almost 2,000 years and many Christian teachers taught supersessionism. Now we all know that the Lord has His own plan for the Church as well as for the nation of Israel. We just need to "rightly divide the word of truth" as apostle Paul said. I disagree (and that's ok ) with Clark that the antichrist will be revealed at the beginning of the 7 years. Paul said that when the Restrainer (Holy Spirit) is removed then the lawless one will be revealed. Many think that the removal of the Restrainer is the same event as the Rapture of the Church. But how about 2 Witnesses and the 144,000?. By what power and strength are they going to perform the mighty miracles? And with what kind of seal the 144,000 going to be sealed? Paul wrote to Ephesians: "you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise". The Holy Spirit will definitely be present during the first 3.5 years and He will be removed when the 2 Witnesses and the 144,000 will go up to the sky. That is the time when the man of sin -- satan falling from the sky and then coming out of the abyss -- will be revealed sitting on the throne in God's temple. The devil likes to mimic God. So even as Jesus'/2 Witnesses' ministry lasted for the 3.5 years (1st half of a week) so the ministry of the lawless one will be for another 3.5 years (2nd half of the week). Someone might say: "I will recognize the antichrist when he signs the peace treaty with Israel." Well, my friend, you might not be around when all of that happens. |
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Post by whatif on Jul 2, 2017 10:20:30 GMT -6
I personally think the Antichrist will be Gentile, because the beast rises out of the sea. Who is your candidate? As for my candidate, he is the guy who is planning to handle the peace treaty with Israel this fall. His name in Hebrew means "a descent" or the one who comes from above. Good morning, paul! I think I know who you are speaking of, and he is also on my list of candidates! I've got several people on my list of possibilities... |
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paul
Layman
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son...
Posts: 96
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Post by paul on Jul 2, 2017 10:20:39 GMT -6
It has been too much talk about unimportant staff such as antichrist. The Bible says: "it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace." Jesus Christ is the grace and truth, so its good to talk about Jesus. I haven't found the proper thread so I'll post it here. My wife and I watched the movie "The Shack". It's actually a good one. Most of the Christian movies are too religious for me except Gibson's Passion and Hacksaw Ridge. There is interesting interpretation of the Trinity and the personality of God. The only scene that I had problem with is Jesus participating in the burial of a little girl. It's hard to imagine the One who is the Resurrection and Life putting someone into a coffin. The natural reaction from Jesus would be: "Talitha kumi" which is "Little girl, I say to you, arise." Other then that its interesting movie to watch, especially in our days with a lot of gory movies. p.s. Yay! I became a watcher like Jesus. "I saw in the visions of my head [while] on my bed, and there was a watcher, a holy one, coming down from heaven." (Dan 4:13) |
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Post by whatif on Jul 2, 2017 10:25:51 GMT -6
Interesting! I haven't seen the movie, but I've heard mixed comments about it ranging from "It is very inspirational and thought-provoking" to "It's a tool of the New Age agenda."
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2017 14:22:34 GMT -6
I liked it- as a Christian, I appreciate the imagery for those struggling with hurt and anger. New agers are perverting it, as they do everything. It's a MOVIE. And compared to the one about Noah, it's heading in the RIGHT direction.
Paul- very interesting observation! Hmmm...
If the antichrist is Gentile then why Jesus bother to warn Jews about false christs (messiahs)? Jews will never accept Gentile messiah.
I have my guess as coming from Turkish descent- but Kushner surely has 'soulless eyes' and seems to be taking whoever he meets with ''captive' , remarkably so.
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They wouldn't accept anybody else, otherwise they wouldn't be Christians after all. 
Likewise the Lord (the Rock) will consume the beast with the breath of His mouth. This Rock
