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Post by tiffanybw on Aug 23, 2017 14:07:16 GMT -6
I think that what it all comes down to, trusting in Jesus. This includes trusting Jesus to tell us when we are hearing something being taught that is false. Also includes trusting Him to deal with the hearts of those who are teaching false things.
For sure we should be on the lookout for false teachers. Thing is though, man is fallen. Every single one of us. Because of that it is inevitable that any person, no matter who it is, no matter how close to God they are, they are going to have some false teachings. Of course, some more than others. Because it depends upon that man who is teaching, upon that man's heart and where his heart stands with God, what his motives are behind what he is teaching. And only God can know that, only God can judge that.
So first and foremost, we go to HIM, we go to His Word. His Word is INFALLIBLE and PERFECT. So many doctrines out there, so many terms such as "Lordship Salvation". What all these terms and doctrine have in common is that they are based upon Scripture, but the actual terms and the actual doctrine is man made.
That said, God uses everything and every one for good. So it is not our job to judge the MacArthur's of the world, but to pray for them. And to take the portion that is good and that does agree with His Word, and learn from that portion. But leave the rest.
And then, just as The Holy Spirit does with us, He will do with all of these "big names". He will convict them. Then they will choose. God doesn't force anyone to choose, or really I should say what to choose. And so, what they choose, just that their choices impact their growth, their sanctification, their development and maturing as "a child of The King". Only the King knows the heart of His Own.
Unfortunately, some (I think many of the "big names") will, already have, ended up running after money instead of running after God. I pray that He would convict them, get them back on track, and that they would repent and turn from what they are doing now, what they are preaching to so many, with so many buying into whatever it is they are peddling to make a buck. I pray they will repent and turn from money, and towards Jesus. He is ALL that matters.
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Post by barb84 on Aug 26, 2017 19:28:24 GMT -6
Just to point out, all of John MacArthur' s sermons can be downloaded from the Grace to You web site for free.
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Post by MissusMack08 on Aug 28, 2017 23:42:15 GMT -6
I'd learned so much from John MacArthur, especially his sermons on eschatology, at the gracetoyou website when I first started really delving into it. I always thought he was a 5 point Calvin??? I sometimes had to turn my Calvininism filter on when listening to certain sermons but I never felt like it hindered the other aspects of the teaching. However, it sounds like from some of you that he is teaching a works based salvation? How does that work within a Calvinistic framework exactly? Has he "switched sides?"
What I've noticed, and granted I don't have a ton of experience in the matter to go off of, but it seems to me that a lot of people whose names get bigger and bigger, their theology seems to start changing the older they get (maybe the richer they get). For example, (please don't excommunicate me...) I noticed some odd statements/opinions from Chuck Missler in some of his more recent videos. I can't remember what they were exactly now, but I remember being a bit disturbed by them. Maybe it was lordship salvation? I just can't think very clearly at the moment (toddler is up crying and sick and I think I'm coming down with it too).
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Post by watchmanjim on Aug 28, 2017 23:56:02 GMT -6
Well Calvinists can be either "Salvation by faith alone" people or "Salvation by works" people, or a strange blend. I don't think being a Calvinist makes you be works-dependent or works-independent. It's a separate spectrum on a different axis, as far as I can tell.
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Post by MissusMack08 on Aug 29, 2017 1:07:16 GMT -6
Well Calvinists can be either "Salvation by faith alone" people or "Salvation by works" people, or a strange blend. I don't think being a Calvinist makes you be works-dependent or works-independent. It's a separate spectrum on a different axis, as far as I can tell. Hmmm. I always thought Calvinism was about being chosen by God to receive salvation through "irresistible grace" that you can't earn (or reject.) I just can't wrap my head around how works would fit into it, except in a "if you're not doing works, you're not really saved" kinda way, maybe. Like, how can you be "the elect" if you have to work for it too? Or are only "the elect" ALLOWED to work for it? Confusing, whatever the answer is. |
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Post by watchmanjim on Aug 29, 2017 1:10:19 GMT -6
Yes, that's basically it. Some Calvinists think, well, whatever will be will be, if I do all the works I'm supposed to be doing, then it's clear to me that God wanted me to be saved. Which of course is baloney. Or they trust the Calvinism itself-- or trust their church attendance and liturgy participation to save them. That kind of thing.
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Post by mike on Aug 29, 2017 5:54:56 GMT -6
Hadnt been in this thread for a while. didnt realize it got derailed. When i was first saved it became evident to me that if i had faith, i would most naturally also have works. Its the evidence of the change, right? unfortunately the works eventually became the focus. sitting under teaching that constantly says "we have work to do" is ok(ish) but what was lacking was the other end of the spectrum GRACE. The key part of the message got lost in the shuffle. James is often mis-read/interpreted as "your faith should (make you) produce" rather than "put your faith into action".
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Post by barb84 on Aug 29, 2017 9:17:27 GMT -6
I personally have learned a great deal about the Bible from MacArthur. I know that GTY gives away a lot of free resources. Is MacArthur correct in everything he says? No, neither am I. Salvation is by faith alone through grace alone. But when salvation has come, we are commanded to bear fruit. I wish I were more fruitful.
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Post by MissusMack08 on Aug 29, 2017 9:49:30 GMT -6
I personally have learned a great deal about the Bible from MacArthur. I know that GTY gives away a lot of free resources. Is MacArthur correct in everything he says? No, neither am I. Salvation is by faith alone through grace alone. But when salvation has come, we are commanded to bear fruit. I wish I were more fruitful. I agree barb84! I definitely don't want this thread to get into a Calvinism debate since we've derailed enough from Micah 3:11 discussion, and Calvinism/Arminianism debates tend to get nasty for some reason that I've never understood. I have learned over the years how to listen to many preachers that teach from different theological perspectives and still glean new understanding from them without them affecting my "saved by grace through faith not of works" core belief. I personally never remember John MacArthur teaching anything that sounded to me like works-based-salvation, but that doesn't mean he didn't or doesn't now. Unfortunately though, out of all the theological differences across denominations, works-based-salvation is, in my opinion, the most dangerous for the soul because it is directly counter to the free saving grace of the gospel. |
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Post by socalexile on Aug 29, 2017 10:03:00 GMT -6
Well Calvinists can be either "Salvation by faith alone" people or "Salvation by works" people, or a strange blend. I don't think being a Calvinist makes you be works-dependent or works-independent. It's a separate spectrum on a different axis, as far as I can tell. Hmmm. I always thought Calvinism was about being chosen by God to receive salvation through "irresistible grace" that you can't earn (or reject.) I just can't wrap my head around how works would fit into it, except in a "if you're not doing works, you're not really saved" kinda way, maybe. Like, how can you be "the elect" if you have to work for it too? Or are only "the elect" ALLOWED to work for it? Confusing, whatever the answer is. Calvinism and Arminianism are functionally the same thing in the life of the believer. Either way, a believer must persevere to the end to be saved, i.e. they must do X or Y and not have any sins worthy of being condemned by their brethren. The only real difference is that if not enough "evidence" (works") or too much sin is present, then the Arminian will say salvation was lost, and the Calvinist will say that there wasn't any in the first place. |
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Post by socalexile on Aug 29, 2017 10:04:47 GMT -6
I personally have learned a great deal about the Bible from MacArthur. I know that GTY gives away a lot of free resources. Is MacArthur correct in everything he says? No, neither am I. Salvation is by faith alone through grace alone. But when salvation has come, we are commanded to bear fruit. I wish I were more fruitful. I agree barb84! I definitely don't want this thread to get into a Calvinism debate since we've derailed enough from Micah 3:11 discussion, and Calvinism/Arminianism debates tend to get nasty for some reason that I've never understood. I have learned over the years how to listen to many preachers that teach from different theological perspectives and still glean new understanding from them without them affecting my "saved by grace through faith not of works" core belief. I personally never remember John MacArthur teaching anything that sounded to me like works-based-salvation, but that doesn't mean he didn't or doesn't now. Unfortunately though, out of all the theological differences across denominations, works-based-salvation is, in my opinion, the most dangerous for the soul because it is directly counter to the free saving grace of the gospel. I'll let Yankee explain it: He has several messages that address the issues with MacArthur and his Lordship Salvation in more depth. |
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Post by mike on Aug 29, 2017 10:27:30 GMT -6
Hmmm. I always thought Calvinism was about being chosen by God to receive salvation through "irresistible grace" that you can't earn (or reject.) I just can't wrap my head around how works would fit into it, except in a "if you're not doing works, you're not really saved" kinda way, maybe. Like, how can you be "the elect" if you have to work for it too? Or are only "the elect" ALLOWED to work for it? Confusing, whatever the answer is. Calvinism and Arminianism are functionally the same thing in the life of the believer. Either way, a believer must persevere to the end to be saved, i.e. they must do X or Y and not have any sins worthy of being condemned by their brethren. The only real difference is that if not enough "evidence" (works") or too much sin is present, then the Arminian will say salvation was lost, and the Calvinist will say that there wasn't any in the first place. Although the pastor(s) didnt really participate, they taught it without saying it. This was the debate we judgmental christians always had when someone left the "congregation". "Well so & so is back-slidden, maybe lost his/her salvation", "You can't lose it, probably never had it in the first place", "He/she came to an altar call and prayed the prayer so they are saved", "the prayer doesnt mean anything, if they didnt mean it, they probably didnt mean it or else they would demonstrate faith through actions" round and round and round and round and round and round and round |
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Post by socalexile on Aug 29, 2017 10:41:18 GMT -6
Calvinism and Arminianism are functionally the same thing in the life of the believer. Either way, a believer must persevere to the end to be saved, i.e. they must do X or Y and not have any sins worthy of being condemned by their brethren. The only real difference is that if not enough "evidence" (works") or too much sin is present, then the Arminian will say salvation was lost, and the Calvinist will say that there wasn't any in the first place. Although the pastor(s) didnt really participate, they taught it without saying it. This was the debate we judgmental christians always had when someone left the "congregation". "Well so & so is back-slidden, maybe lost his/her salvation", "You can't lose it, probably never had it in the first place", "He/she came to an altar call and prayed the prayer so they are saved", "the prayer doesnt mean anything, if they didnt mean it, they probably didnt mean it or else they would demonstrate faith through actions" round and round and round and round and round and round and roundMacArthur, Washer, Piper, Brown, etc. all teach it and participate. |
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Post by MissusMack08 on Aug 31, 2017 14:52:48 GMT -6
Thanks, guys, I think I understand it now. We definitely have had this discussion at my church and In the past I subscribed to the "well, they probably weren't saved in the first place" argument. This year however, "Freedom" has been my theme from the Holy Spirit. I've never been one of those who intentionally picked a "word for intentional living" to meditate on throughout the year. Apparently a lot of people do this as part of a New Years resolution... It just happens that that is what God keeps showing me through my studying and meditation of the Word. Last year, He kept showing me what the "breastplate of righteousness" is, that it is Jesus' righteousness alone that covers me—imputed grace. I am clean and can stand before God—come boldly into the throne room of grace because I've accepted Christ's death on my behalf, and this alone saves me and makes me a priest and heir alongside Him. This directly links (and is the obvious next step) to the freedom I'm learning this year, as it is His righteousness that has freed me. Exploring that this year has been amazing. It's like I'm finally TRULY understanding who I am in Christ. Like that song, "I know WHO I am 'cuz I know WHOSE I am." It has NOTHING TO DO with sin and works/fruit, though I don't want to sin and I want to produce fruit. But I know enough about spiritual warfare to know that it's very easy to become entrapped in sin, deceived and "walk away" from God. If God can't save or continue to save a person who does this, then He can't keep any of His promises. And that's just NOT AN OPTION. AMEN for that!
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Post by evenso on Aug 31, 2017 15:17:33 GMT -6
Scripture clearly states that a person HAS eternal life (John 6:47, 10:28) the moment he accepts Christ (trust/rely upon) as the only way to Him. Those who are continually judging others by the fruit or whether or not that person left the fellowship or whatever, don't seem to grasp the word "eternal." If Jesus gives us eternal life the moment we trust Him, eternal life is eternal. Will that person not have rewards in Heaven or lose rewards in Heaven if he is not producing fruit? Yes. But so will WE...those who have been called to come alongside the new believer and help him grow.
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