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Post by cwood85 on Nov 28, 2018 21:37:47 GMT -6
Not an expert on genetics, but being a parent of a son born with a major heart defect (genetic disorder...) has taught me a thing or two on the basics of genetics and how they work. I also did loads of research before deciding to have another child and their risk of being born with a heart defect as well. Doctors told me it was a one in a million chance for a sibling to be born with the same or similar defect, my family history told me otherwise. There were two other boys on my grandmothers side of the family whose sons were born with heart defects. Both had another child in under two years from the first and the siblings were born with the same defect as the older brothers.
Now at that point I was terrified to have another child in fear of them also having a major heart surgery at birth (once was more than enough) and I looked into genetics a whole lot. What I learned is, we are not born with a set in stone genetic code to an extent. They change throughout our lifetime based on our environment, stress, diet, and lifestyle choices. Smokers create or cause genes that cause lung diseases, excessive sugar and carbs cause genes for type two diabetes, the list goes on and on.
What I also learned was that because our genes can change, this applies for either male or female how long the genetic anomaly can repeat or occur again. The more time that goes on the less likely it is to happen again, skip generations or be basically bred out. I read several studies that suggested to wait over two years to have another child if one was born with a genetic disorder because the risk dramatically decreases.
Genetics and computer codes are so similar in many ways. Our genes are our code of how we function, what we have resistance to, what we are susceptible to, how well our organs will form inutero and function throughout our life. Major skin disorders for example that previously have had no sort of successful treatments have been discovered to be caused by a missing or low functioning gene that aids in certain protein production. The absence of these proteins and binding tissues that rely of them fail and cause miserable diseases. Many patients once this gene is added, have healing and relief never found before.
Agent orange is being discovered to have affected certain genes or basically bring certain genes out that would not normally act the way they do, but cause problems in the presence of agent orange. These damaged genes are being carried from generation to generation and still causing the same deformities from going on two generations back now.
Computer codes missing a single dot, backslash and etc. can cause major damage or nuances. Depends on the code and its function. A data entry program I use at my job works great until certain keys are put in. Like adding a # sign before a check number for recording a payment causes random crazy issues, but just entering the check number is fine. Nobody can figure it out lol. Our genes in ways act very similar. Too many or too little of certain ones can cause major issues or even death.
Genetic and chromosome anomalies create disorders, diseases, physical deformities and death. Most babies who have too many or little of certain genes sometimes only make it hours to maybe a couple years of life before their bodies can no longer function properly. There pros and cons to this type of science.
The ideology however of editing genes for superiority, is probably not going to create soulless humans, but rather devestating consequences either in the child’s life or their children’s lives. This is about playing God and creating mankind’s path to immortality and trying to prolong or avoid death and not acknowledging that we are all sinners and the wages of sin is death.
It is humanities way of trying to obtain our own salvation by playing God through science. Edit out the bad stuff and we will truly be perfect. The root is pride. Pride in our abilities, knowledge and self sense of power.
Remember the purpose and mindset behind the Tower of Babel...
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Post by cwood85 on Nov 26, 2018 19:08:14 GMT -6
It felt like a blast from the past when I just logged on. Nice to see comments from watchmanjim and cwood85Hope you are both doing well. 😀👍 Hi Sawdy!
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Post by cwood85 on Nov 26, 2018 18:54:17 GMT -6
Hi,
haven’t posted on here in quite sometime.
I may have a little bit different viewpoint to ponder on with this whole A.I. Topic as it is very interesting and intriguing.
I personally do not think AI will be the image of the beast and I have an entirely different thought process on the image of the beast. But to me A.I. is certainly antichrist. It is our own means of elevating ourselves as being godlike or a god. It is another and more sinister stitch in the ever growing seam of “self” obsession of today. Self care, self love, selfies, self help, selfish desires and so. Call to the universe to help, control the universe by constantly thinking about our own desires, lust, wants and so on. Manifest our thoughts through the stars to control our destiny and life because we are all made from the stars! <<< More and more young people are falling for this sort of witch/Wicca thinking and do not even realize what it is and what they are getting themselves into.
With a self obsessed world, what would be the more desirable than to by our own hand and way create the possibility to never die, never age and live on for as long as technology will allow. Look at all the plastic surgery, anti-aging procedures and treatments people do and put themselves through to try and delay death, delay aging and get maybe a few more years of life and good looks to continue to impress. Not the same as being healthy and wanting to strive to be healthy and live a more comfortable last few years as a result of taking care of yourself, but for vanity and pride. Vanity and pride of what? Ourselves, and so others continue to lust and desire us.
I think AI is the epitome of human vanity, pride, selfishness, arrogance and a depraved mind. Look who is warning against it, the very people who have made this technology even possible over the years. These are the same people who have their multi million dollar hidden escape bunkers in various parts of the world. These same super intelligent people could probably come up with some amazing ways to possibly help with world hunger, fight child and sex trafficking better and etc. but instead put all their intelligence and money into obsessing over doomsday scenarios, how to save only themselves, and building underground luxury fortresses to hide in.
To me at least it utterly antichrist because the entire mindset behind creating A.I. Is to essentially create and rely on our own salvation from death, not Gods. AI is elevating humanity to achieve their own salvation.
I also do not think it will work and think the results will be horrific. Our consciousness comes from God, and trying to basically dupe that ability ourselves is going to be deadly and absolutely not what we are trying to achieve.
No singe person is going to achieve being able to upload themselves to a super computer because God gives us the ability to breath, think, and be aware. Not us, nor any evil entity.
God tells us he will give us over to our own depraved mind and this is the result of it.
Just my two cents.
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Post by cwood85 on Nov 24, 2018 22:31:13 GMT -6
Look at the underlying spiritual problem of the subjects of these observations of yours, venge... 3“For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the passion of her immorality (fleshly desires, not God's desires), and the kings of the earth have committed acts of immorality with her (man has become his own god) and the merchants of the earth have become rich by the wealth of her sensuality (prosperity/technology/self-elevated satisfaction, AI and gene manipulation, dictators abounding/various wars for self-gain, the media).”
venge, you had a similar thread about Black Friday...your observations here parallel the same circumstance. As each day goes by, I believe that each one of us Faithful will begin to recognize the underlying "beast" of which the "harlot" sits...and will understand truly who what the harlot represents.. 18“The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.” This "city," that Spiritual one that John sees is the center of man operating his own "commerce" and "trade" , not God's. This elaborate "city" comprised of peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues, all operating apart from the Goodness of the Lord. It is what the second to last "kingdom" has built up en masse, especially now that we have knowledge increasing, to and fro (internet and media). Having become built of many things, that are not of God's laws and ways and means, so often we will see contradictory things like the US not holding Saudi accountable for fear of lost revenue, or retaliation, one political party betting on identity politics to maintain their control, countries invading other countries, leaders of countries starving their peoples, the list goes on: Think about it - if they obey the Father - He would not have reason to dismantle their kingdom. So He allows them to fight and struggle and in the end, seal their own judgment. 4I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues; 5for her sins have piled up as high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.this is the spiritual change, this REPENTANCE on a metropolitan scale is what will "destroy" this mystery babylon that has a grip on the heart of her inhabitants. God calling and the many responding. and MANY will... 6And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people; 7and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.” (don't worship yourselves and think you are running the show. I, your Almighty Lord God is in charge, has, is and always will!) 1After these things I heard something like a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying,
“Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God; 2BECAUSE HIS JUDGMENTS ARE TRUE AND RIGHTEOUS; for He has judged the great harlot who was corrupting the earth with her immorality, and HE HAS AVENGED THE BLOOD OF HIS BOND-SERVANTS ON HER.” (many having surrendered their authority(their harlotry), and turning to God. Notice that who is involved: the bond-servants..) 3And a second time they said, “Hallelujah! HER SMOKE RISES UP FOREVER AND EVER.” 4And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sits on the throne saying, “Amen. Hallelujah!” 5And a voice came from the throne, saying, “Give praise to our God, all you His (1)bond-servants, (2)you who fear Him, (3)the small and (4)the great.” 6Then I heard something like (1)the voice of a great multitude and (2)like the sound of many waters and (3)like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, saying, “Hallelujah! For the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigns. this "city" of many streets, byways, buildings, high-rises, river systems, airports, synagogues, churches of all religions, housing, sewer systems, stores, communication systems...all represent a spiritual example of how vast and complicated the root of evil within man having become his own god to rule his life his own way, apart from God the Almighty..even after He walked the earth and died for our sins, we(mankind) still chooses to let our own desires reign.. you venge , just made a witness to what will destroy the "city." It starts as a Seed of Truth, and one day will be a Great corporate Transformation! It has too, because we know what Kingdom will be the final one, and who that Ruler is! Hallelujah! This is too good to not post an Amen to!!! :-)
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Post by cwood85 on May 24, 2018 23:21:13 GMT -6
cwood85 , regarding #4 that everyone worships Him, what do you make of Zechariah 14? A few is us have recently turned our attention to who will be present in the Millenium, and we see that the people who refuse to go up and worship the Lord will not receive rain in their land. This doesn’t sound like voluntary worship. I agree that every knee will bow, but it doesn’t sound like every knee will be willing... at least not at 1Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you. 2For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city. (See Jeremiah 19:1-6, Amos 5:1-4 and Isaiah 29) 3Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. 4In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. 5You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him! (Refrence to Matthew 24:16-21) The Holy ones are with the Lord on His day 6In that day there will be no light; the luminaries will dwindle. 7For it will be a unique day which is known to the LORD, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light. 8And in that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter. REV 21: 6 "I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost." 1 COR 5:5 " I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." 9And the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be the only one, and His name the only one. 10All the land will be changed into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem; but Jerusalem will rise and remain on its site from Benjamin’s Gate as far as the place of the First Gate to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s wine presses. 11People will live in it, and there will no longer be a curse, for Jerusalem will dwell in security. First the land splits into a Valley from the middle of the Mount of Olives in which people will flee, now the land is changed to a plain. This to me is not literal, but a metaphor. 12Now this will be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the peoples who have gone to war against Jerusalem; their flesh will rot while they stand on their feet, and their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongue will rot in their mouth. 13It will come about in that day that a great panic from the LORD will fall on them; and they will seize one another’s hand, and the hand of one will be lifted against the hand of another. If their flesh, eyes, and tongue have literally rotted away how can they be combative with one another? To me this is representing a form of judgement against those who attacked Jerusalem and possibly is not literal. I am looking into this more however.
14Judah also will fight at Jerusalem;( How can Judah fight Jerusalem? Jerusalem was originally in Judah. Quiet possibly where the plural of Jerusalem comes into the text) and the wealth of all the surrounding nations will be gathered, gold and silver and garments in great abundance. 15So also like this plague will be the plague on the horse, the mule, the camel, the donkey and all the cattle that will be in those camps. 16Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths Tabernacle with the Lord 17And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them. ( "Let us know; let us press on to know the Lord; his going out is sure as the dawn; he will come to us as the showers, as the spring rains that water the earth.” Hosea 6:3, “Shower, O heavens, from above, and let the clouds rain down righteousness; let the earth open, that salvation and righteousness may bear fruit; let the earth cause them both to sprout; I the Lord have created it. Isaiah 45;8
18If the family of Egypt does not go up or enter, then no rain will fall on them; it will be the plague with which the LORD smites the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths. 19This will be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths. 20In that day there will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, “HOLY TO THE LORD.” And the cooking pots in the LORD’S house will be like the bowls before the altar. 21Every cooking pot in Jerusalem and in Judah will be holy to the LORD of hosts; and all who sacrifice will come and take of them and boil in them. “Then set the pot empty on the coals, That it may become hot and its bronze may burn, That its filthiness may be melted in it, That its scum may be consumed." Ezekiel 23:11) And there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts in that day. This last part about the cooking pots are those who have been refined by the Lord and are Holy to Him. Those who where righteous before him and are in His kingdom.
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Post by cwood85 on May 24, 2018 6:38:13 GMT -6
mikeI read on here pretty often. A lot more than I comment. However I see the above and colored statement from you in a lot of threads in one form or another towards Barb and myself and it is at least to me completely unnecessary and a bit demeaning. You may not outright say it, but the implication of your statement is pretty obvious. In that we see things in this weird hippy new age stuff that is out of the norm, so let's point that out often. Point number two on this, your recent interactions with SK has completely clouded and marred your view on this and shut you off. Especially since after he left you made sure to immediately post that "The importance of Hell" thread as a swift rebuttal to SK's threads. I read The document and the lack of scriptures referenced in was startling to "prove" something so biblical and as a fact... So from one forward personality to another I am going to list some information in regards to restoration that all in here might find interesting. I am not proving a point or saying who is or isn't right. Use the Bible, prayer, God as your true teacher, the internet, and a plethora of very very old and preserved documents to research this. SK repeatedly stated this was not all his information, and that it was learned and discovered through many avenues. There are books, websites, videos, oldddd scanned documents that are hundreds of years old. 1. Restoration is not new and is the oldest preached gospel in recorded church history. Look it up and don't take my word for it. This is not a all ways of beliefs lead you to heaven ideology. This is still 100% only through Christ can one get into His Kingdom. 2. Those over the last 2000 years who have preached and believed in this were some of the absolutely worst persecuted Christians. Remember Nero and what he did? Wrapped people in oil drenched cloth and set them on fire in droves. Go look into what those Christians believed in to go through this. Go look into the many documented cases of Restoration and persecution. 3. There is no one on the face of this planet who could face Jesus and reject Him. That is like saying they have more power than Him. I don't think so. There are so many examples of this in the Bible. Just to name a few: Nebuchadnezzar (spelling? I am on my phone, sorry) who was driven absolutely insane by God for seven years and came to repentance. Was this repentance of his own free will or did God enact Judgement until the former Babylonian king had no other choice? Hopefully that answer is obvious. Paul who calls himself the WORST OF SINNERS came to repentance entirely not of his choice, but Gods. The man just from seeing a bright light and hearing a voice fell flat on his face and begged for mercy and asked what was to be done of him by Jesus? A man who had no problem slaying people with his bare hands and worse for simply believing differently. Did he repent and choose to be the preacher of the gospel to the Gentiles of his own free will?!! Or that he could have said nah I don't accept You Jesus so I am going to keep on my way to Damascus. No!!!! Now think of those who are going to be face to face with Jesus and won't "accept" Him or His mercy from their own free will... Anyone who sees Him will absolutely say "YOU ARE MY LORD!" And will fall on their face and worship Him. 4. If we are saved from Hell, annihilation, or eternal separation, why didn't any of the disciples preach this? And why wasn't this theme in the Old Testament? The books in the Old Testament speak of being redeemed from death, not Hell. Please don't quote KJV verses to support this as this version has taken 9 entirely different words and translated them to hell. The disciples didn't go around saying "believe believe so you are not destroyed or tormented in one way or another for eternity!!!!" Or "you better believe or you are going to be sorry!!" But that is how we think now is it not? Is that really good news? Believe in Jesus to save your neck? Nope! Believe in Jesus because he laid down his life to save everyone. Majority of people at the time that Paul preached to had no idea of a hell or if there was a belief it was PAGAN and used as a means of control. ET torment was invented by the Roman Catholic Church hundreds of years after Christ was crucified to force tithing from everyone. It worked so well in fact that they were able to enact a church tax through the local governments. Don't pay and support the church, then go to hell! Why go to hell? Because they would come and find you to kill you for not paying. People were not allowed to have a copy of the Bible. They had to attend church to hear it. Wonder why... 5. No where does God say love me out of fear only. He says to fear Him because He will correct your behavior and a lot of times it is not pleasant. If you keep doing something you ought not to, he is going to correct you and set you straight out of love. Where sin abounds grace abounds. 6. Does God give up on us? Does He shrug his shoulders and say well I tried to help you, but you didn't want my help so sorry about that and. I give up because you are a lost cause. You feeble little human turned me away so I will give up on you FOREVER. Is that forgiveness, love, compassion, and mercy to 100% turn your back on them and never look back? Would a loving parent with a child who is having issues with addiction or whatever troubles boot them on the street and say I tried to help you but you just wouldn't listen, so I am giving up on you... No they don't. My sister was a junkie for several years and my mom never gave up on her. Not once. Everyone else told her to and that she had done all she could. My sister was simply a lost cause to them or that my mom was enabling my sisters actions by letting her live with her. She put my mom through absolute hell. My mom had cars totaled, things stolen, property destroyed, picked my sister up from drug dealers houses and put herself in some very scary situations to save and help my sister. There where many times I thought my poor mom was going to have a heart attack. But to my mom she was going to everything she could to heal my sister. Even if it meant destroying her own sanity and happiness. Why would she do this? Because she LOVES my sister and true love never gives up. She relied on God because he was the only one who had her back. My sister has been clean for over 4 years, works full time and supports herself. "Love never gives up." <<< I 100% trust and believe that with a God who knows and acts infinite love. 1 Corinthians 13 Now here is a scenario to ponder: A king rules a kingdom who is very powerful, rules with much knowledge and tells his people he loves them more than anything, his only requirement however is that each and every person in his kingdom must kiss his ring or they will be sent down to be tormented for as long as they live or locked away in a pitch black dungeon until they die. Now do the people obey and love this king because he loves them or are they "loving" and obeying him to save their own necks? Just my two cents. Again don't take my word on this stuff, look it up for yourselves.
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Post by cwood85 on May 13, 2018 14:06:15 GMT -6
venge - earthquakes = political upheavals Yes and yes!!!!! seas and waves roaring is possibly very well upheavals of nations, religions, races, peoples against people's. We are certainly seeing that now. Pestilence (sin?) and famines (lack of the word of God or seeing/seeking it?) in various places. Just thoughts 💭
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Post by cwood85 on May 10, 2018 12:00:20 GMT -6
Ok lets try this again Cwood - I respect your take on this, however to form a doctrine about it, is not for me. The context of 1 Samuel 28 is one of those vague areas of scripture that I have reviewed and yet to come to a sound biblical view of what God allowed to transpire here. I do however want to discuss just a few of the questions you posed. Unless of course they were just rhetorical I believe Jesus shows us where Samuel was in Luke 16 & Matt 17. NOTE - I do not want to debate that this is a parable or true story. <<< No debate I definitely think it is a parable and will show why later below. Please indulge me that if this is not a parable and a true event. If true event then we have contradiction in that verse 26 says " between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence". The conflict here is the God allowed Samuel to be "conjured" but it was a one off event. Possible? I think so. If this was not a one off event, then any spirit medium can contact the dead at any point in time past, present or tomorrow. <<They do and they have. Many true witches and witch doctors do not believe Jesus as their savior or acknowledge that he rose from the dead because they know once they do, their power they get from seeking evil spirits and such things will be gone. So was Samuel with God or in Abraham's bosom? Either way it would appear to me that God allowed it once. Or at the least allowed it to be written for our learning once. Matt 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for EliasNow Moses and Elijah were not conjured, but where were they before this appearance? (rhetorical) <<<Lol your know I am going to answer this. I think we get our answer her later in this chapter: 9As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead.” many times throughout scripture angels or divine beings are seen through visions and not in a physical way. For instance Daniel often saw the angels through visions and if anyone else was with him they could not see them but sense them and would become frightened. John in Revelation saw all that he saw in a vision in the spirit. I dont believe we've been given enough to state dogmatically that Samuel was just in the ground dormant, and his spirit was just asleep. His body was certainly asleep but Saul and the witch saw his spirit. I think we can agree there Certainly not dogmatic, just putting verses together like these to better understand them:
"For in death there is no remembrance of thee [The LORD], in the grave who shall give thee [The LORD] thanks?" Psalms 6:5
"If a man die, shall he live again? All the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change comes. Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee; thou (Job) wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands." Job 14:14-15 < Job in the last part of that verse is stating once he hears the call of Jesus when he comes to resurrect, Job will be ready to do His will.
7then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit (breath) will return to God who gave it. - Ecclesiastes 12:7 I wonder if there is confusion sometimes with the word spirit between the Hebrew and Greek? The hebrew word is ruach which means breath, wind, spirit or breath through the nostrils. God breathed air into us so they we can breath and have life. If you can't breath you are dead. However this word is not used to describe Samuels spirit, Elohim is, which means God or divine being. Interesting... What about the Greek word for spirit? 4151 pneúma – properly, spirit (Spirit), wind, or breath. The most frequent meaning (translation) of 4151 (pneúma) in the NT is "spirit" ("Spirit"). Only the context however determines which sense(s) is meant. The Hebrew counterpart (rûach) has the same range of meaning as 4151 (pneúma), i.e. it likewise can refer to spirit/Spirit, wind, or breath. Pneuma is used in the below verse from 1 Corinthians when Paul is describing being in the spirit.You are correct in stating the verse I quoted does not give a timeframe. I also do not agree that the spirit sleeps after death waiting for resurrection of the body. What scripture is there that says that? I am not aware but that doesnt mean there isnt one. But again we have the writings from Paul & John to help us see certain things where there is evidence of people in "heaven". Again although its debatable the context of "Absent from the body present with the Lord" as I have seen in some discussions. Lets look at the first piece of scripture I see taken out of context and applied elsewhere - I will add my emphasis (cant even believe I'm doing that-I am no scholar!) <<< You do not have to be a scholar. We are to test everything and this is a great way to do it. Most "scholars" IMO are just in it for the money. Not all, but a lot.Col 2:1 For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and [for] them at Laodicea, and [for] as many as have not seen my face in the flesh Paul was never physically there; 2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; 3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words. 5 For though I be absent in the flesh Physically, yet am I with you in the spirit No not like Philip, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ. <<<No Paul was not there because I do believe he was imprisoned and this is a letter that he sent to them. So instead of being able to fellowship physically with them he is doing it through letters and letting the spirit be his guide. 20“For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst.”- Matthew 18:201Cor 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body Physically, but present in spirit again not like Philip or a ghost floating in the room, have judged already, as though I were present, <<< I covered this chapter a lot in one of my above post. CONTEXT - please read the below in the context in which it was written.2 Cor 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in [this] tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing [is] God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight: ) 8 We are confident, , and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.
I think Paul here is not talking about a literal house or tabernacle, but being embodied in the flesh as our current home. In this flesh we cannot be with God because it is tainted with sin and is corrupt. However he is more than willing to ride himself of this body and sinful desires that go along with it and put on a new, clean, and sin free body because he says: Whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord. At least that is how I am taking it. Please understand cwood, I love you sister and am not trying to convince you of anything here as secondary to our core belief. I am dialoguing with you and others to present views that don't tie out 100% on either side and are non-essential to our redemption. Whether I wait 1000 years then stand behind or in front of you in line to be judged, then that is Gods plan and decision and I joy in that my judgement was already taken by our Savior. If I am judged on the day I die or he comes to get us who remain alive, that too is not for me to question the God of creation. The only question I would pose in your view of the White Throne judgment being clear is who reigns on earth 1000 years while Satan is bound? Is it only those saints who were "beheaded and did not worship the image of the beast"? - If that were so, then would it be correct to say that you believe that if you are dead in Christ before the remaining pieces of Revelation play out, you arent resurrected until 1000 years is over? <<< I do believe that is what John is saying:
4Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
Lazarus and The Rich Man19“Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. There is a lot going on in these first couple of verses. The rich man is always clothed/covered in Purple (color of Royalty) and fine linen (symbolizing Righteousness & a Holy person or saint of God). He is joyous everyday (Greek for this is:2165 euphraínō – (from 2095 /eú, "good" and 5424 /phrḗn, "moderation as regulated by personal perspective") – properly, having a merry outlook (cheery state of mind) because feeling the sense of victory ("inner triumph"). An in splendor (magnificence, glory, brilliance) everyday.
20“And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, Lazarus means "helpless' who is lame sitting at HIS gate with sores (sores represent unclean and filthiness caused from evil)21and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. Now this one is interesting. Lazarus is now where the rich man is longing for crumbs. What food produces crumbs? Bread! What does bread represent in scriptures? The word of God. How long would it take someone to be "fed" with crumbs? A long time, but he is willing to get even just barely a taste. The dogs are there to waiting for their crumbs to fall to the floor because that is what dogs do. They also like their sores to heal them and prevent infection. Are they licking Lazarus sores to help them become cleaned and healed? There is another part of scripture just two chapters before this about dogs waiting for crumbs to fall: "22And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed.” 23But He did not answer her a word. 24But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 25But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, “Lord, help me!” 26And He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.” 27But she said, “Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.” 28Then Jesus said to her, “O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish.”
>>>Does the rich man acknowledge Lazarus beneath his table? No and does not offer him any bread either. 22“Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. Lazarus goes into Abrahams bosom (a folded part of a garment to make a pocket on the chest. Also represents union and intimacy). Abraham means father of many or the multitudes. The rich man is buried in the earth. 23“In Hades (grave or unseen) he lifted up his eyes, being in torment (the word for this does not mean physically torture, but to be tested, trialed. Literally it means touchstone which is used to test precious metals by rubbing them on its granular surface and if the metals leave any residue on the stone. It test for PURITY), and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. The helpless, unclean, and filithy from evil Lazarus is in the comfort and union with the father of many. Clearly this is not literal because you cannot lift your eyes while dead and see through the earth. 24“And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ Now he is referring to him as Father and to have compassion on him. If he was in literal fire, he would not be worrying about his tongue and only receiving a drop of water. He would want to be doused in water! Agony in this is not physical agony but mental agony and emotional distress. Water represents cleansing, purifying, and renewing. 5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God - John 3:525“But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’ 27“And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house— 28for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29“But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30“But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ 31“But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’” NOTE: I am posting this now so I do no lose it again lol. I will be finishing this later this evening.
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Post by cwood85 on May 9, 2018 16:11:50 GMT -6
Cwood - I respect your take on this, however to form a doctrine about it, is not for me. The context of 1 Samuel 28 is one of those vague areas of scripture that I have reviewed and yet to come to a sound biblical view of what God allowed to transpire here. I do however want to discuss just a few of the questions you posed. Unless of course they were just rhetorical I believe Jesus shows us where Samuel was in Luke 16 & Matt 17. NOTE - I do not want to debate that this is a parable or true story. Please indulge me that if this is not a parable and a true event. If true event then we have contradiction in that verse 26 says " between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence". The conflict here is the God allowed Samuel to be "conjured" but it was a one off event. Possible? I think so. If this was not a one off event, then any spirit medium can contact the dead at any point in time past, present or tomorrow. So was Samuel with God or in Abraham's bosom? Either way it would appear to me that God allowed it once. Or at the least allowed it to be written for our learning once. Matt 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for EliasNow Moses and Elijah were not conjured, but where were they before this appearance? (rhetorical) I dont believe we've been given enough to state dogmatically that Samuel was just in the ground dormant, and his spirit was just asleep. His body was certainly asleep but Saul and the witch saw his spirit. I think we can agree there You are correct in stating the verse I quoted does not give a timeframe. I also do not agree that the spirit sleeps after death waiting for resurrection of the body. What scripture is there that says that? I am not aware but that doesnt mean there isnt one. But again we have the writings from Paul & John to help us see certain things where there is evidence of people in "heaven". Again although its debatable the context of "Absent from the body present with the Lord" as I have seen in some discussions. Lets look at the first piece of scripture I see taken out of context and applied elsewhere - I will add my emphasis (cant even believe I'm doing that-I am no scholar!) Col 2:1 For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and [for] them at Laodicea, and [for] as many as have not seen my face in the flesh Paul was never physically there; 2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; 3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words. 5 For though I be absent in the flesh Physically, yet am I with you in the spirit No not like Philip, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.
1Cor 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body Physically, but present in spirit again not like Philip or a ghost floating in the room, have judged already, as though I were present,CONTEXT - please read the below in the context in which it was written.2 Cor 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in [this] tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing [is] God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight: ) 8 We are confident, , and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.Please understand cwood, I love you sister and am not trying to convince you of anything here as secondary to our core belief. I am dialoguing with you and others to present views that don't tie out 100% on either side and are non-essential to our redemption. Whether I wait 1000 years then stand behind or in front of you in line to be judged, then that is Gods plan and decision and I joy in that my judgement was already taken by our Savior. If I am judged on the day I die or he comes to get us who remain alive, that too is not for me to question the God of creation. The only question I would pose in your view of the White Throne judgment being clear is who reigns on earth 1000 years while Satan is bound? Is it only those saints who were "beheaded and did not worship the image of the beast"? - If that were so, then would it be correct to say that you believe that if you are dead in Christ before the remaining pieces of Revelation play out, you arent resurrected until 1000 years is over? I had an amazing awesome response all typed out and my computer started doing updates.... So I will try to remember as much as I can and try again
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Post by cwood85 on May 9, 2018 9:59:00 GMT -6
cwood85 - I am curious to know how you are reading/interpreting this: Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. muth: to die - Original Word: מוּת - This means physical death in every sense, nothing spiritual about the word in the original text.Genesis 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 6 And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. 7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they [were] naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
Here is the perversion of truth - God didn't say "you'll drop dead as you eat the fruit" - Also I just noticed that Eve says "neither touch it", which if God said it, it was not recorded...
So my question to you is what is the lie you are referring to? That when we physically die the soul and/or spirit does not live on forever? ( Ecc 12:7) I think we can surmise the physical body dies and returns to the earth. What are you suggesting about the resurrection? Just looking for clarity. Hopefully not to further derail this thread. 1Samuel 28: 3Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had lamented him and buried him in Ramah, his own city. 7Then Saul said to his servants, “ Seek for me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her.” And his servants said to him, “Behold, there is a woman who is a medium at En-dor.” 8Then Saul disguised himself by putting on other clothes, and went, he and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night; and he said, “ Conjure up for me, please, and bring up for me whom I shall name11Then the woman said, “ Whom shall I bring up for you?” And he said, “Bring up Samuel for me.” 12When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice; and the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul.” 13The king said to her, “Do not be afraid; but what do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “ I see a divine being coming up out of the earth.” 14He said to her, “What is his form?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped with a robe.” And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and did homage. 15Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” And Saul answered, “I am greatly distressed; for the Philistines are waging war against me, and God has departed from me and no longer answers me, either through prophets or by dreams; therefore I have called you, that you may make known to me what I should do.” 16Samuel said, “Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has departed from you and has become your adversary? 17“The LORD has done accordingly as He spoke through me; for the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, to David. 18“As you did not obey the LORD and did not execute His fierce wrath on Amalek, so the LORD has done this thing to you this day. 19“Moreover the LORD will also give over Israel along with you into the hands of the Philistines, therefore tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. Indeed the LORD will give over the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines!” Samuel was brought up. From where? The Earth. This is Samuels Spirit being conjured by the medium. If Samuels Spirit was with God, do you think this woman had the power to take him from God? Is this a one time occurrence only for Samuels spirit to stay in the Earth and everyone else when they die do not do the same and go straight to heaven? How could Samuel talk from his grave if he was not in his grave? It does not say from above but below. The chapter you quoted above does say our Spirit is the Lords however no timeframe is given as to when that is after we die. The lie is that we go straight to heaven or hell and are judged straight after death as well. So when the great white throne judgement happens we are judged again? Where is this in scripture? All are judged at the same time during the white throne judgement and that is clearly stated. After the thousand year reign of Christ, he resurrects all of those who were still in the Earth in their grave or wherever they died and are not part of the first resurrection. "Blessed are those who are in the first resurrection." I hope I answered all of your questions in what I understand at least.
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Post by cwood85 on May 9, 2018 7:36:13 GMT -6
venge "Why would a spirit might be saved in the day of the Lord. Not before the day of the Lord but in that day. If the spirit of a evil man was changed and he would bear fruit, would he then be saved in the day of the Lord?" Hmmm interesting isn't it? I do believe Venge, it seems that is what Paul is referring to 😉 Almost seems like Paul is referring to the day of judgement (what is the purpose of Judgement? To correct and stop bad behavior through the proper punishment and chastising that matches the level of bad behavior) in which we humans would receive from God. If a spirit who is evil while on Earth and then received Grace from God after Judgement from God, what else could Paul be referring to? Absolutely!!!! He would be saved! Yep saved ❤️ By Gods proper judgement out of love. Where sin abounds, grace abounds. I truly believe He means that all the way to the Lords day and at the great white throne judgement (not damnation as many seem to insert in there instead of judgement). The Lord God never changes. He was, is, and will always be the same. You seem very logical and like to question things a lot before coming to an answer for yourself and seek the Lords guidance. Putting two and two together and if they don't fit, keep looking. You will never hear in a church that on the Lords day we have the opportunity to receive His grace. 3but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.’” 4The serpent said to the woman, “ You surely will not die! 5“For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” Genesis 3:3-5 ^^^That right there is was the biggest and first lie told at the beginning of creation. That we will surely not die and be like God who is infinite, eternal, the beginning and the end and we would live forever just like Him. What does the majority of churchs teach? Immediately when you die you either go straight to heaven or hell forever. Looks like we keep falling for that lie from the very beginning. We know this isn't true because: 19By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return.”I always wondered what was the point of the resurrections if we go to heaven or hell? What would there be to resurrect? As we see the kingdoms of the world falling apart at a rapid pace, and as Psalm 83 points out that Israel is being surrounded by enemies. I believe this chapter possibly has dual fulfillment. Israel has been surrounded and destroyed by enemies before and we are seeing this again. Christ is certainly close and he will bring all the kingdoms of the world into him. Most will not come easily as we are also seeing.
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Post by cwood85 on May 8, 2018 16:33:47 GMT -6
venge"Why would a spirit might be saved in the day of the Lord. Not before the day of the Lord but in that day. If the spirit of a evil man was changed and he would bear fruit, would he then be saved in the day of the Lord?" Hmmm interesting isn't it? I do believe Venge, it seems that is what Paul is referring to 😉 Almost seems like Paul is referring to the day of judgement (what is the purpose of Judgement? To correct and stop bad behavior through the proper punishment and chastising that matches the level of bad behavior) in which we humans would receive from God. If a spirit who is evil while on Earth and then received Grace from God after Judgement from God, what else could Paul be referring to?
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Post by cwood85 on May 8, 2018 13:16:24 GMT -6
@vange says I accept your challenge lol 1It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father’s wife. 2You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst. 3For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved (healed, saved, preserved, rescued) in the day of the Lord Jesus. Paul can go in and out of being present in the spirit and being absent in the body. To me he is implying that He is not relying on the carnality and sin of his flesh to make decisions or actions, but in the spirit with the power of Jesus. He literally did not separate into two different entities and then come back into one. He relied on the power God to guide his actions and mindset. He is speaking this as a metaphor. I would think the same would be applied to his second statement in regards to delivering to Satan for the destruction of his flesh (sin, immorality, wickedness) as a metaphor as well. The reason is the word for destruction does mean utter destruction, but this: 3639 ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing." > After seeing this, I think this is referring to destruction to the point that it causes one to completely turn away from their fleshly sins and desires from being destroyed by them which also usually causes repentance from their sins. The words may or might be saved in this verse are misleading. These words are not expressing a possibility but they are expressing a permission. How does one know the difference? This is how the language is used to express the permission in scripture and what it is categorized under: to make one a partaker of the salvation by Christ.
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Post by cwood85 on May 8, 2018 11:23:08 GMT -6
But Jesus is in heaven, is He not? I was invited to read this thread. I have been reading it through over the last couple of days and find a lot of the information interesting and some of it stretched, like 1 thessalonians 4:17: "Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord."I know venge and barbiosheepgirl both question this verse as to where it says heaven? I am also a believer in the Kingdom of God being on Earth with Jesus on Earth with us. Both of them are correct to do so because it does not at all mean heaven in that verse (which in the original language clearly defines Heaven as upper atmosphere or even beyond that. Don't take my word for it however, look it up). The word clouds in the Greek as a transliteration: nephelé: a cloud (literally only means clouds. Not above the Earth in space or some other dimension somewhere, but clouds like the ones in our skies right now. Jesus comes in the clouds and we meet him in the clouds because that is where He is. This passage does not say meet in Him in the clouds and then go up to heaven. The Greek word that is used for clouds is derived from: nephos. This word is rather interesting as it's meaning is A) Neuter B) A noun white Nephele is A) Feminine and B) A noun and the definition is (which is the most interesting part to me at least) a cloud; met: a dense crowd, a multitude, great company.
Paul was a fantastic writer and very intelligent, far more than most of us are, which is why some of his writings are hard to read and understand. Since this "Rule" of bible interpretation was brought to my attention in a response to another thread here a little while ago, I am going to use this proper or highly suggested (Who came up with this?) way of interpreting the bible (according to man anyways...) and use it on this verse and Heaven being inserted where it does not belong and imo stretching this verse (that is not in anyway directed towards you witness1, just the popular theorie taught on this verse). HERMENEUTICS: THE GOLDEN RULE OF INTERPRETATION WHEN THE PLAIN SENSE OF SCRIPTURE MAKES COMMON SENSE, SEEK NO OTHER SENSE; THEREFORE, TAKE EVERY WORD AT ITS PRIMARY (LIKE THE WORD CLOUD...), ORDINARY, USUAL, LITERAL MEANING UNLESS THE FACTS OF THE IMMEDIATE CONTEXT, STUDIED IN THE LIGHT OF RELATED PASSAGES AND AXIOMATIC AND FUNDAMENTAL TRUTHS INDICATE CLEARLY OTHERWISE. A. SEEK THE PLAIN, LITERAL MEANING OF THE SCRIPTURES
1. The sum and substance of this most important rule is that one should take every statement of the Scriptures at its face value, if possible. 2. The following is an analysis of the adjectives "primary," "ordinary," and "usual." 3. "Primary" emphasizes the original, inherent idea in the term. 4. "Ordinary" and "usual" are practically synonyms, especially in this definition, "usual" being employed for the sake of emphasis. 5. "Literal" is used to emphasize the thought that every word must first be taken literally as expressing the exact thought of the author at the time when it was used; and one is not to go beyond the literal meaning of the Scriptures unless the facts of the context indicate a deeper, hidden or symbolic meaning. B. SEEK THE FIGURATIVE MEANING ONLY WHEN THE FACTS
DEMAND SUCH AN INTERPRETATION (What? How can this be a rule or guideline if there is absolutely no definition of choosing and separating what is and isn't figurative or fact? By this rule it is basically saying to guess)1. Modernism and rationalism are the logical outgrowth of forcing a figurative meaning upon a passage that is clearly literal, or vice versa. (IS THAT NOT WHAT IS BEING DONE TO THE ABOVE PASSAGE OR MAYBE EVEN WORSE BY INSERTING A WORD AND A MEANING THAT IS NOT EVEN THERE ??) Not using caps and bold for yelling incase that is takes it that way, just using it to make a point. Here are my questions regarding as to why this passage is interpreted to mean going to heaven and that is what we do while possibly half or more of our family members, friends, and loved ones are here going through hell of Earth while we sit back and do what exactly? I mean these questions genuinely and am trying real hard to not be as blunt as I usually am.
1. Where in the bible does it say what we are supposed to be doing in Heaven while everyones else back on Earth are suffering immensely? At least to my knowledge it doesn't. If anyone knows, please help me out here. 2. Paul states this is a mystery that is being revealed, however did not indicate that there is another mystery immediately following the first one that cannot be revealed such as us going to heaven w/ Christ and what we would be doing up there for 7 years (I definitely didn't see that in any of his writings come to think of it) as another mystery. To further this study of the above passages and if we are truly raptured to Heaven (I do believe in the rapture be the way in case anyone is thinking I do not, just not in the same time and sense that is more popular pre trib belief) and look at: 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2"1Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come." <<< How many times have we seen the "day of the Lord" in scriptures?
Lots of times in both the new and old testaments. Many think the day of the Lord and the day of Christ are two different events because some bibles interpret Lord & Christ in various passages and others interpret either all Lord or Christ. One day being for God and his judgement and the other for Christ. However the Greek word used in every single reference to the day of the Lord or Christ is the same for all of them (kurios:lord, master, sir; the Lord, properly, a person exercising absolute ownership rights; lord (Lord)). He is our Lord of Lords and King of Kings. I do not believe the Day of the Lord/Christ are reference to having something to do with a rapture and then a resurrection before the 1000 year reign and after for the 2nd resurrection for the Great White Throne Judgement. The word in the Greek for God is theós (of unknown origin) – properly, God, the Creator and owner of all things. Long before the NT was written, 2316 (theós) referred to the supreme being who owns and sustains all things. This word is never used in referencing to the day of the Lord or Christ. Paul even points that our for us in the first verse in 2nd Thessalonians above that it is the coming & day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
I have read D4L thread on the differences of the day of the Lord and the day of Christ but after much research of my own and learning that the Greek is the same for both Lord and Christ in all of these verses regarding the day of the Lord, I have to kindly disagree because it nulls out any sort of dividing this day for two different events. If they where different, then there would be a different word used to describe the one who is causing this event and there is not.
EDIT: I see these post may be sorted because they are getting off topic. Moderators please move if necessary.
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Post by cwood85 on Apr 16, 2018 17:31:06 GMT -6
I don’t recall it being called a treaty nor being signed. Just a peace with many. We know Israel is one because another verse says your annulment with death and when they say peace and safety.... Israel is peaceful with a few Muslim countries today. They have trade with some, and allow border movement to a degree. I disagree that you stress Jesus as the one who stops the sacrifices. That counters other scripture that says the AC does that. I am claiming ignorance here regarding these scriptures. Would you mind listing them please ☺️ Why would Jesus want to stop that? Now ask, why would the AC? Think of it from a Christian perspective, not Jewish. I am thinking of it from a Christian standpoint and not a Jewish one. Why wouldn't Jesus want to stop that? He was the ultimate and last sacrifice. The sacrifices done before him were all a shadow of Him. Any sacrifices done after Him being crucified were meaningless as they are now. Really the only nation that does animal sacrifices now is Israel and that is narrowed down to those who practice Judaism. Then you will know. For Christ and communion is our drink and grain sacrifice and we are to present ourselves a living sacrifice. That is what is to be stopped. Stopping worship, stopping prayer, stopping communion....all things we hold dear. <<< I think there needs to be scripture presented for this last statement as well please.
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