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Post by cwood85 on Jan 28, 2019 21:55:26 GMT -6
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Verses 9-23 describe the new Jerusalem which descends from heaven, which has no temple nor sun or moon for God will be there (the temple and the light) Why does the eternal city where God dwells need gates, if in verse 8 all those things that are contrary and enmity with God are in the lake of fire? 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Again why are there gates on the holy city to keep out things that defile and work abominations, and tell lies if all those are already in the lake of fire? Just a reminder that those who defile, lie and make abomination are in the lake of fire? 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.Here we are reminded again? Is the lake of fire just outside the city gates?14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
If you are tormented outside the city in the second death, how can you be in the presence of the holy angels? It would seem in my limited understanding that the angels are at the gates of the city and therefore those outside the city are in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb???
I've been trying to reconcile this section in my mind lately and was hoping some others could add to help my understanding. This one section came to mind because of the border wall. Initially I was thinking well there's a wall around the eternal city, so why not one here in America. Please don't debate that here, it was simply to show why or how I began to research the scripture on this item and the highlights above.
The way I read Rev 21 & 22 is this is after the 1000 year reign of Christ, the new city descends from heaven, yet we still see walls, gates and sin outside these gates/walls. Now I have come to understand the traditional background that non-believers are destined for "hell" fire if they die in unbelief or Christ returns. As I actually read through the bible I also find that "hell" is emptied into the lake of fire. Hell is translated or rather interpreted from 3 different words in the NT - Hades, Gehenna & Tartarus. Hades - properly, the "unseen place," referring to the (invisible) realm in which all the dead reside, i.e. the present dwelling place of all the departed Tartarus - (2 Pet 2:4) applies as the abyss or holding place, prison (for angels that sinned). Gehenna - narrow glen to the south of Jerusalem, where the idolatrous Jews offered their children in sacrifice to Molech (2 Chronicles 28:3; 33:6; Jeremiah 7:31; 19:2-6). This valley afterwards became the common receptacle for all the refuse of the city. Here the dead bodies of animals and of criminals, and all kinds of filth, were cast and consumed by fire kept always burning. It thus in process of time became the image of the place of everlasting destruction. In this sense it is used by our Lord in Matthew 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33; Mark 9:43, 45, 47; Luke 12:5. In these passages, and also in James 3:6, the word is uniformly rendered "hell,"
I'm going to post this now with my thought - First I apologize to those reading as most of the time what is going on in my head does not translate very well to the screen. Second I am not trying to convince anyone of hell, purgatory, annihilation, restoration or any other eternal viewpoint that may be held. Simply I want to know more about this portion of Revelation. My initial reaction to Rev 21 & 22 is that is closely resembles the definition of Gehenna. How this relates to the answer to my question, I do not know. I wanted to open this for discussion and see what other areas of scripture can provide more 'color'. Maybe a question to ask to dig deeper into this passage and understanding is what is the purpose of the lake of fire? Not by mans standards or theologies on the Lake of Fire. What does scriptures say about the Lake of Fire and what purpose it serves? But first the words here are important. Here are a few to chew on: 2303 theíon – properly, sulfur ("brimstone," i.e. smoky, burning rocks), i.e. sulphurous, named for the sulphur-smell left by lightning; (figuratively) the fire of heaven, bringing down God's judgment to display His awesome, unstoppable power.
The word for brimstone however is the neuter adjective of Theos (apparently the neuter of the adjective θεῖος equivalent to divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off contagion
Full definition of theos and the iOS: theíos (an adjective, derived from 2316 /theós, "God") – divine, manifesting the characteristics of God's nature.
2304 /theíos ("divine nature") ties God's essence to His self-manifestation, permitting all people to know Him by observing His attributes.
And now how the word fire is used in this passage: 4442 pýr – fire. In Scripture, fire is often used figuratively – like with the "fire of God" which transforms all it touches into light and likeness with itself
God's Spirit, like a holy fire, enlightens and purifies so that believers can share more and more in His likeness. Indeed the fire of God brings the uninterrupted privilege of being transformed which happens by experiencing faith from Him. Our lives can become true offerings to Him as we obey this imparted faith from God by His power.
There is also the word tormented that is described as a state of being, not a result of the Lake of Fire: 4. universally, to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment: τινα, Matthew 8:29; Mark 5:7; Luke 8:28; 2 Peter 2:8; Revelation 11:10; passively, Matthew 8:6; Revelation 9:5; Revelation 20:10; of the pains of childbirth, Revelation 12:2 (cf. Anthol. 2, p. 205, Jacobs edition); with ἐν and the dative of the material in which one is tormented, Revelation 14:10.
That is all from Strong’s concordance. So we have a lot of rather negative people of various degrees going into the Lake of Fire (but nothing beyond what majority of anyone has possibly done. Lie, steal, idolize, and etc.) that is burning with brimstone (or into the Holy refining Fire judgement of God which transforms all it touches into light and likeness with itself, which is the tormenting material being used) and afterwards there is more than one invite into the new Jerusalem and to the fountain of the spring of life through gates that are always open. Isaiah and Paul say it best: Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.Isa 45:24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.And parallels with: Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
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Post by cwood85 on Jan 25, 2019 15:04:40 GMT -6
Good thoughts and questions, cwood85 . There was a time when I was toying a lot with Universal Reconciliation (UR - NOT universalism - big difference). I absorbed a ton of the material from Tentmaker and was allured by it, but eventually I came across three red flags: 1. The first thing that started convicting my spirit is that the fruit seemed to be superficially good, but the more I dug, I found lawlessness and disregard for the literal truth of Scripture. The majority of its proponents seem bent on allegorizing whatever doesn't fit and that extends to embracing sin as a-ok with God. Lawlessness and disregard for the plain truth of the word—not good. I was torn, but still considering it. 2. The verses used by UR proponents have already been dealt with heavily in historic Christianity. For example, 1 Timothy 4:10. First of all, it does make a distinction within the verse itself between believers and unbelievers ("especially" - in other words, He is especially the Savior of believers because they've accepted Him as Savior). Secondly, the verse in and of itself does not define "all". Does it mean that Jesus will effectively save every person who ever lived? Or does it mean His atonement is effectively unlimited in that He literally died for the sins of every person and thus is the only Savior available to every person? This second option would be the position the Church has taken for most of its history and probably the one I favor. Jesus is the Savior of all, but not all will have Him as Savior, hence John 3:18: A third option, favored by Calvinism: Does "all" mean that Jesus' atonement is available to all people, but atonement itself only occurs for those who believe? 3. Choosiness with Scripture. In other words, the Tentmaker/UR crowd has a few dozen favorite verses (1 Tim. 4:10 being #1) that they hold above everything else, yet there is a far greater number of Scriptures that would seem contradictory prima facie. This is a big one to me. I've observed that Christian sects usually revolve around a handful of carefully selected verses, which they exalt above everything else. Their doctrine isn't holistic, but choosy to fit the predefined desire. Examples: RoC - James 2 (at the expense of Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, Hebrews, etc) CoC - Acts 2:38 Bullingerism - Galatians 2:7, 2 Timothy 2:15 JW's - Luke 18:19, Daniel 12:1 Second Baptism - 1 Corinthians 13:1 HRM - Matthew 5:17 I found UR to be similar. When you do a plain inventory of Scripture, two things really jump out: 1. God is dead serious about the finality of judgment, 2. Dying while in rebellion to God and His Messiah is an irrevocable death sentence. When you do a straightforward inventory of all Bible passages that deal with the fate of unbelievers/dying in unforgiven sin, a clear, holistic picture emerges: 310 passages threaten death <<<Yes but it is important to research the context and meaning of the word death. Not all of the times death is used does it mean literal death and is used allegorically. Paul is a good example of this and how he uses the word death many times, it is referring to a state of being
88 passages threaten fiery destruction <<<Similar to above, it is important to research the type of destruction definition being described. This is where translations from the Hebrew/Greek to English gets messy and muddy because in English we really do not have a singular word easily translated or transliterated meaning the destruction of your well being, livelihood, and similar. When the language and use of word is researched however, this is clarified. 6 passages describe an indeterminate period of fiery torment (e.g. Rich man and Lazarus in Hades, but Hades is destroyed in Rev. 20:14) ^^^But the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus is not talking about a fiery torment. If you are burning and in torment, the last thing you are going to be worried about is getting any sort of relief from water on your tongue. In regards to Rev 20:14 it cannot be used as an indication of any form of fiery torment nor does Hades mean hell, but it means the grave or the realm of the dead. Anyone can look this up in multiple sources and concordances to verify this. The second death is the death of death, you can't have more death after that because it does not exist after that point. Otherwise it would be the death of death of death... those who are thrown into the lake of fire are not referred to as dying or being tormented, that is something that is presupposed and inserted. "14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. " <<<Those who are thrown in are thrown in after death...
And only 2 passages explicitly describe everlasting torment (and there is reason to believe the Greek term is figurative, based on its source in Isaiah) It's this kind of inventory of Scripture that ultimately convinced me of conditionalism, because it appears to be the overwhelming thrust of Scripture. I wrote about this here: Blessings to you! P.S. We're diverging significantly from the topic, so if need be we can move this to a new thread. Pre-trib scholar Dr. David Reagan has a good video on conditionalism: Thanks Gary for the comments. I started to comment in red above, but am out of time until later this evening to finish my post. In summery however I was not trying to convince anyone of a particular belief, but more on the lines of not inserting ideologies or presumptions that are not there to begin with
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Post by cwood85 on Jan 24, 2019 10:45:40 GMT -6
Can I ask a few questions? Hopefully this isn’t taken the wrong way and I convey my thoughts correctly (Lord help me out here) and do not cause an uproar or anything. My statement is deep and it would be wise to pray on it, meditate and read scripture about it.
It seems to me at least that the purpose of salvation in modern Christianity is basically to avoid hell. That the main purpose of being a Christian is to not go to Hell. You believe Christ died for your sins and now you have an escape route out of Hell, whether you think it is an eternal torment or annihilation. For the record I believe in neither.
Is this why we decide to believe? The purpose of salvation is so we don’t get roasted or blown to dust for eternity? Our existence is based on an eternity of either being in constant agony or dust if we do not make the right choice? I mean we are so good at making the correct or important choice (cough cough Adam and Eve...) that we would be given the choice again in a similar context? Adam and even got “do not do this or you will surely die”, but now we have “do not disbelieve or you will be tortured or blown to bits.”
In the OT, the Israelites practiced the law to what purpose? Forgiveness of sins or to avoid hell? But not one of them did it perfectly ever over thousands of years, which was required for the law to complete its purpose. So are the millions who practiced the law damned in some way? It had to be perfectly fulfilled for it to work. Only one man did that. Christ, and he fulfilled the law. Not one single person was ever truly forgiven because they could not fulfill the law until Christ came. Since He fulfilled the law therefore completing it, these verses impact are severely misunderstood:
“Or do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage. Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress. Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.”
What do we think of verses like this in regards to salvation and RD:
“For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.” 1 Timothy 4:10
“Jesus replied, “What is impossible with man is possible with God.”
“so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.”
“For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive ”
Have you really ever sat and thought about these verses? There are many many more that I could list in similar context. How does one rightly divide these? I am not being coy or snarky at all. Who does the saving? Us? Are we still being saved? Was it finished at the cross or was it kinda finished and requires more action on our end for its completion? Or is it God that fully completed salvation at the cross, and the gospel (the good news, not the escape route or ticket from damnation) is to share that completion with everyone?
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Post by cwood85 on Jan 24, 2019 9:37:02 GMT -6
This is interesting actually. I would need to research further into this and am not saying he is correct because all I am seeing is this quote that you have provided. I will look further into his message for more details.
“John Paul Jackson referred to as a revelation from the Lord, he released a statement in 2008 called The Coming Perfect Storm. In this statement, he spoke of a time coming to America and the world in which economic, military, religious, political, and geophysical issues and events would occur in a relatively small period of time to make up a perfect storm of calamity. Jackson describes in detail the events that were revealed to him. "I saw the year 2010 was going to be very difficult, especially as you get further into 2010. I saw the year, I kept hearing an angel saying in a deep loud voice, 'The woes of 2012. The woes of 2012. The woes of 2012.' I don’t know what those woes are..... In a 2011 web video series called "The Perfect Storm Revisited", Jackson elaborated more on his original message......”
2008 was one of the worst years financially. The most foreclosures, job loss, poverty rising to record breaking levels aside from the Great Depression began in 2008. I worked in finances at that time through 2014 and let me tell you after 2008 things did not start getting better for several years. Many things have lined up in the years afterward that we are now seeing the result of today. Legalizing same sex marriage has brought on an explosion of transgender identity that is now being pushed on everyone more than ever. Bathrooms are changed to same sex, some drs are now no longer acknowledging make and female, in some countries of you accidentally acknowledge someone by the the sex opposite of what they decide to be that day, you can be fined or even jailed. The deep state during these years was also quickly growing and we see that exploding now that it is being exposed and uncovered for everyone to see.
In 2012 gas prices were the highest The worst economic drop in history occurred Foreclosures were at an all time high Car companies (Gm, Ford, Chrysler) were on the verge of closing their doors for good The mass movie theater shooting happened Obama’s was re-elected And much more that we are still seeing the result from even today. 2012 was a pretty crappy year for the entire world.
Again, I will look into his statements more, but there have been a very precise sequence of events militarily, religiously, politically, financially and on the civil level that we see crumbling apart today. He was not possibly 100 right, but he wasn’t really wrong either.
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Post by cwood85 on Jan 18, 2019 23:30:26 GMT -6
thanks david . you said this: Here is an example of why I believe they could hide the entire moon landing and what proves there is an elite system in our government which is why they fear Trump thru hate, and the tool of media is so far ingrained into it: Hillary Clinton's private email server. Ya know, the one she wiped clean with a cloth... and she not only became a presidential canidate, (poor Bernie Sanders' supporters) she is still walking free. When I go to pump diesel in our ranch truck we are now inundated with commercials from a tv screen that occupies all the pumps at our small town Sinclair. Our town's population is about 5000. The echo of these voices reminds me of the book I read in highschool called 1984...and it also reminds me of the movie the Running Man..where there was constant audio from centralized media sources. The media responsible for giving the gas pumpers their daily spin? NBC CBS or ABC. If you think that it is only exclusive to liberals, where is our dear Ryan from Wisconsin? Quite young to have left such a powerful position.. Meanwhile for those of you prior to David's post, lets talk about the Flat Earth: Why must it be flat? It seems to me the the way atoms are presented parallels the solar system idea. Kinda the same way that the cells of animals and plants are. They have a nucleus and things travel around it. I think a sphere would BE God's choice. Why are those debunking FE theory perhaps considered atheistic? I think the way they portray the universe could very well be the way God set it up. If the earth is flat, then why do ships not reach antartica from travelling due west from California? or an African coast? What about magnets? and a compass? Why is it warmer at the equator than the poles? The way a FE think, then we should have similar temps at antartic and autralia as we do Alaska, no? Or maybe GOd just controls this all, but I think He is bigger than that. I thnk He set it as spheres, and suns and moons and all and it travels by His clock...so what is the big deal? It wasn’t that long ago that I read 1984. I read it in high school and then did a project on it in college. We are very close now as to what the book describes as the ultimate oppressive and controlling society. I actually had a bit of a creep out moment the other day because it was smack out of 1984. My mom was telling me about great and healthy changes she has been making in her diet and different supplements and vitamins she has been taking. In our discussion she brings up how a collapsed vein in her leg that was painful at times and how she has always been told by doctors that the only remedy is to surgically remove it. It was caused from childbirth and this is not something that is uncommon as a result. My mom pulls up her pant leg just above her ankle behind her calf and it was completely gone! A small slightly darkened area is all that remained and she said that was fading as well. She has had this collapsed vein for almost 30 years and in a few months time it has healed. There is a part in 1984 were the main character describes a similar irritated and swollen vein on his leg and how it was painful and irritated him constantly. Once he rebelled against eating the food that the government supplied and started to eat real food such as fruits and veggies instead, his sore and swollen vein healed and vanished. These healthy foods were banned however and it was a crime to have and eat them. I pulled up these parts of the book online to show them to my mom because of what she had shown and told me 😳
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Post by cwood85 on Jan 17, 2019 18:18:12 GMT -6
A. Hitler was an avid Flat Earther and this was entwined in his Arian race ideology and all the evilness that went along with that...
B. Go ask a flat Earther to explain seasons and how they occur on a flat earth or the variations of climates and how those occur on a Flat Earth.
Triple dog dare: (lol) go join a FB Flat Earth group, ask for proof or explanations on seasons and climates and time how quickly you are promptly removed from the group. Probably will not even have enough time to pop that bag of popcorn you were planning on making 🍿 🤭🤣😅🤪
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Post by cwood85 on Jan 10, 2019 8:28:25 GMT -6
From a great FB group that has helped me immensely (PM me for the link if you'd like. It's not the typical FB religious train wreck of a group): View Attachment This is very touching and beautiful. Thank you for sharing this.
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Post by cwood85 on Jan 3, 2019 10:48:51 GMT -6
And just a few more verses down in Hebrews, the writer quotes the Old testament: Hebrews 10: 37 “For yet a little while, And He who is coming will come and will not tarry. 38 Now the just shall live by faith;But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him.” Where is Grace in that? But where does it say there isn’t grace? Where does this at all infer anything about salvation? My soul has no pleasure does not mean these individuals loose their salvation. It means God is insulted and disgusted! That’s it! Going back to animal sacrifices and rituals is what this is talking about, which yes is a complete slap in the face to what Christ did on the cross. This is exactly where you are inserting your belief and making scriptures say something that they are not. Whether you realize it or not, you are twisting the meanings around. I do not mean that to be combative, but I am sorry you are doing that and taking singular verses to qualify works+faith and salvation when they are talking about something happening at that moment, in the present, not the future. These scriptures are talking about behaviors and their outcomes not someone’s eternal salvation. God can be plenty ticked off at us and that does not mean we loose or get a mark off of our salvation. That isn’t logical whatsoever, it’s petty and chaotic. Do parents love their children more than God? If a child misbehaves does the parent dangle their life in front of them? One more bad move kiddo and your finished! No they do not. What do loving parents do when their child misbehaves? Corrects them, and that correction is based off of the type of misbehavior occurring at that moment. Does a parent come back a year later after their child misbehaved and punish them then? Absolutely not. The child would be completely bewildered and hurt. That would be a form of mental abuse leaving the child to be in fear constantly. Why do we think God does this???!! Humans are not able to love more than God. We would never want to see harm come to our child no matter what they have done. We want to see them do GOOD and be healed from their sinful and broken ways and loving parents do anything they possibly can to help their child. Why do we not think God does this?? Like he is Santa with a good or naughty list and our eternal salvation is based off of our fallen and finate minds verses Him. Some of the comments in regards to what Christ did on the cross and how we limit him has left me a little heart broken. That the serious thought of us being able to do anything to ensure or loose our salvation is hopeless. What a hopeless and depressing thought for anyone. The only factor behind this sort thinking is pride in our abilities, not Gods. Our salvation was deemed before the creation of the world and there is plenty of scripture to hold that up. God is a big God and nothing is impossible with Him. He will not send us to an eternal torment like a genocidal maniac for something we never had a choice in the first place. He will do absolutely anything it takes to bring us to him through love, not force. He is our Father and any loving father would do the same for their children. This will be my last post on this thread.
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Post by cwood85 on Jan 2, 2019 15:36:52 GMT -6
How about this verse: Hebrews 3:12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. brethren... believers in Christ... Beware! Beware? Why? What happened to Grace? What happened to being sealed for eternity with the Holy Spirit? You are inserting that brethren is referring to and addressing only believers in Christ. If the book of Hebrews was written also by a Hebrew (many believe it was Paul) wouldn’t they also be referred to as brethren? Your argument is based off of making assumptions as to who the brethren are. Since it is the book of Hebrews and written to show what the purpose of the law was and so on, brethren could be Jews, Israelites, Hebrew anyone.
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Post by cwood85 on Dec 31, 2018 9:22:10 GMT -6
There is no possible way for this statement to be true: James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? is equal to : "There was not a single act that Abraham did on his own to justify anything. " This is false! FLAT OUT FALSE! No it’s not. It wasn’t just his physical actions that justified him him. You are hung up on that. Bad wording on my part as. I should have clarified it was not justified by his physical works alone. It was his faith and trust in God. Again it is where his heart was in trusting God with doing those actions. He had soooo much faith in God at this point in his life, he was willing to sacrifice his son. And James clarifies this in the very next verses: 22You see that his faith was working with his actions, and his faith was perfected by what he did. (by trusting in God) 23And the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “ Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”and he was called a friend of God. Let me give a real world example of what this scripture is talking about because so many equate this with the gospel and their salvation and that is not what it is implying at all. The root of the passage is where your heart is in your faith. Look at the Pharisees! The believed in God and did works up to their eyeballs! Jesus ripped them to shreds because they had more faith in themselves because of their works than anything else. Please stop placing James 2 with salvation because he is not stating that works gains or better your salvation or are proof of it. No body can get more salvation. The example I am going to give is something I have witnessed and it is disgusting. These people think they are doing good works for the Lord and PROVING their faith when they are doing the exact opposite. At a local planned parenthood center that I visited for healthcare annually because for a few years I did not have health insurance and this is a service they offer at very low cost for women without health insurance there was a group of women holding up signs saying such loving things as: MURDERER!! BABY KILLER!!! SINNER!!! YOU ARE GOING TO BURN IN HELL!!! JESUS CRIES BECAUSE OF YOU!!! COME TO JESUS BEFORE ITS TO LATE! There was also a variety of signs showing mutilated baby parts. The whole whole thing was absolutely disgusting and the ironic part was this clinic of planned parenthood did not preform abortions at all. Many do not. The angry Christian mob was far away enough off of the property that nothing could be done. Even over 15 years ago I remember thinking that wow is this loving and encouraging behavior to show and possibly persuade someone from making a terrible decision? No! This is dead works! Nothing good comes from doing or acting like these above women do. These women have no faith in the love and forgiveness of God. Their faith is in their signs and condemnation. They are poison. What if someone had a sign that said this instead: JESUS STILL LOVES YOU AND FORGIVES EVEN IF YOU HAVE AN ABORTION. HE IS THERE FOR YOU WHENEVER YOU NEED HIM. ^^^^ That is faith with GOOD works!!! Wouldn’t this be more affective?This sign says from the one holding it that they: Fully believe in the power of what Jesus did on the cross That no matter what we do in our lives, only He is powerful and merciful enough to forgive. That they have absolute faith in God. In real life beyond my example above there are women who are doing things like this and their success rate is massive. Instead of holding signs up for all to see, they slip little notes in car doors or place them under wiper blades either to women going into clinics to get abortions or to the employees themselves preforming the abortions. That is their focus, no matter what they do Jesus loves and forgives and is always their for them. They have built an entire ministry of getting women out of the abortion industry and supporting them afterwards for several months and many avenues of therapy and healthcare. That is the faith + works James is talking about and look at the fruits it produces!! It’s so beautiful how effective this ministry has become and it is because their faith is fully in God and what was done on the cross and resurrection ❤️ I hope this clarifies some things for you. Editing to add: without his full faith and trust in God, Abraham never would have tried to and go through the actions to sacrifice his son. He would have either refused to do it or try to do something in his sons place to spare his life. There were many times Abraham did not have faith and trust in God and relied on his own WORKS based on his faith in himself and the results were not good. If Noah did not have full trust in the Lord he wouldn’t have even attempted to build the ark. The faith resulted in the actions happening.
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Post by cwood85 on Dec 31, 2018 0:25:46 GMT -6
Because God had already said the seed of promise would come from Isaac as would generations and nations and that even the offspring of Ishmael would be reckoned through Isaac. It was done to show as an example the sacrifice of Jesus that would happen many generations later through the seed of Isaac, who is the son of promise, a miracle because of the age of his parents. Abraham knew this and obeyed. If Isaac died, it was on God to fix what he had broken and Abraham knew that. Ever think maybe he was “tested” so we can read about it now and see the work that was being done and the many lessons being shown in this passage of scripture. It is rich in so many ways. I think Abraham needed to be justified by evidence seen because he had a choice. Would he really do it? The only time I even see the word "evidence" in the New Testament is in context of Faith. Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Where was God's faith in Abraham? I think God tested Abraham so James could write Chapter 2 exactly as he wrote it. Abraham was justified by his works! Why would he need to be justified when he was already promised the everlasting covenant? Justified for what? There was not a single act that Abraham did on his own to justify anything. When he did not obey the Lord, things went south. What better example is there than his son Ishmael? Abraham took matters into his own hands because he did not trust in God to let Sarah conceive. So he went to Hagar to try and fulfill The promised offspring himself. Even though he did that, God still gave him his son of promise. Why? Because Jesus was to come from Isaac and nothing is impossible with God. This was all about God and his plan, not how Abraham justified himself before the Lord. Abraham had to learn a lot of hard lessons to come to this trust and resting in the Lord. Uscgvert, I mean this in a very mild manner, but you are making some of this more difficult and confusing than it is. The book of James is not contradicting anything, he is making a point of where our faith is, in Gods glory and plan or in ours?
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Post by cwood85 on Dec 31, 2018 0:07:46 GMT -6
Please see what I posted above. If this were true, then why did God tempt/test Abraham? Why was the test necessary? If the trust from Abraham was 100%.... why the test? Because God had already said the seed of promise would come from Isaac as would generations and nations and that even the offspring of Ishmael would be reckoned through Isaac. It was done to show as an example the sacrifice of Jesus that would happen many generations later through the seed of Isaac, who is the son of promise, a miracle because of the age of his parents. Abraham knew this and obeyed. If Isaac died, it was on God to fix what he had broken and Abraham knew that. Ever think maybe he was “tested” so we can read about it now and see the work that was being done and the many lessons being shown in this passage of scripture? It is rich in so many ways.
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Post by cwood85 on Dec 30, 2018 23:42:22 GMT -6
"Works" is doing something physical while'st at the same time obeying or disobeying God. No^^^^ that is only part of the definition. Here is the full definition and Greek word used in James 2.
2041 érgon (from ergō, "to work, accomplish") – a work or worker who accomplishes something. 2041 /érgon ("work") is a deed (action) that carries out (completes) an inner desire (intension, purpose). <<< This is the second part of the definition and it is imperative to see the difference of the intention of the works being spoken and written of.
where is the heart of it? Are the works to try and obtain your own salvation through your own righteousness or to glorify God? Abraham’s works had nothing to do with trying to obtain his salvation. His works glorified God. Rahabs works glorified God. Her works were to simply do the right thing, not for obtaining her salvation. Abraham trusted God 100% and that He would keep His promise he made to Abraham about his son Isaac. If God had let Abraham kill his son, God would have been a liar and broken His covenant. Abraham knew this and did not doubt Gods plan so he did/worked as he was told to do. He in a sense put the situation in Gods hands and left it to Him ❤️
Noah’s work was that of obedience and trusting GOD to save his family, not by his own hands and works.
That is what James is talking about in chapter 2 and it is not pointing to works for salvation. It is pointing out, where is your heart in the matter? Your trust? A person cannot claim to have true faith and then turn around and trust only in themselves or continue to practice rituals and sacrifices to obtain or secure their salvation. That IS the work, to trust in God and His plan. We deny our pride, self righteousness, and humble ourselves before the Lord when we work (because it is a constant battle and a lot of work at times) to trust Him. As time goes on our works glorify him. Faith is certainly dead when our works are to try and justify, glorify, obtain our salvation or uphold ourselves to the Lord because that is not faith in him, but faith in ourselves.
Adam worked to eat the apple, disobeying God's direct command to not eat it. Noah worked to build the ark, obeying God's direct command to build it. Abraham worked to sacrifice Issac, obeying God's direct command to do so, thus justifying his faith in God as James worded it. Rahab worked to hide the Israeli spies, thus justifying her faith just as James worded it. Jesus' work on the cross, while'st obeying God, is what God uses to impute justification on us, the unjust, when we believe in Him and what He did in "the good news" (the gospel). Is this a lie? James 2:And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? There is no lens here... WHAT DOES IT SAY ? Don't apply lenses, nor assumptions, nor theories, nor guesses, nor "interpretations" ... Don't say: "I think it means this..." WHAT DOES IT SAY? Please see what I posted above.
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Post by cwood85 on Dec 25, 2018 10:13:53 GMT -6
boraddict“ I have often said (to friends) that there is too much scripture. Why don't we dismiss everything except the BoR. Now that would be fun. I guess we could keep Isaiah and perhaps Daniel; and we must keep the four gospels and Acts. But we must stop somewhere. Now that is funny. I guess we could begin by eliminating those books that are never read like Ezekiel.” _________________________________________ First-Merry Christmas everyone! I am traveling a little today and have some time to catch up a little on this thread. Will not be responding in depth however for possibly a few more days. Second-Pretty sure the above mindset is how cults are formed.... pick what is favorable and throw out the rest. Many books may not particularly always point to prophecy (however most times I am pleasantly surprised when I do read something in an unexpected area of scripture) but more importantly it points to Jesus. Like pretty much all of it and was inspired and written for and to glorify HIM more than anybody. He is everywhere in the Bible, even in very unexpected areas. That is like trying to build a house without a frame when we are ok with throwing out or deeming large portions of the Bible as not important.
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Post by cwood85 on Dec 23, 2018 22:43:52 GMT -6
Some received the Holy Spirit before being baptized, some after, some after hands were laid on them by a disciple. A water baptism had and has nothing to do with salvation. It was an act to symbolize the washing of their sins. A symbolic act. Baptizing does not actually wash away our sins. Jesus did that. This is no different today in regards to baptism. I have never been baptized, so what does this mean for me? Unfortunately when we start to pick and choose and try to rationalize what counts us as saved or unsaved, or multiple gospels for different groups of people and them having different things required of them to achieve salvation, things get sticky rather quickly. When we have faith that God has accomplished His will and what He has said he will do, what more can we do? Also in Acts chapter 8, 10, and 11, there is absolutely no mention baptizing leading to salvation. It is either done before someone receives the Holy Spirit or after as a symbolic act. Do we still lay on hands to receive the Holy Spirit? The eunich was reading Isaiah and was on his way to worship in Jerusalem in chapter 8. Clearly he believed. His baptism had nothing to do with his salvation. Sin was abolished at the cross. No baptizing, works, or actions lead to our salvation or forgiveness of sin. This was the plan for all generations for all of mankind. The entire purpose of the law was to show and point out to the world that we cannot save ourselves. The laws purpose was to illuminate our biggest sin, pride in ourselves and abilities and works to try and save ourselves and how much we absolutely need Him to do the impossible. 9For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. 11In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15He disarmed the rulers and authoritiesb and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.Here's one to ponder on. Can one be saved without the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit is our helper, and revealed of truth. He opens our eyes to the truth. [ font color="05beb7"]No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.[/font] 65And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.” 11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;[/i] After you ponder that one, ease into this one. Would Jesus Christ Himself have received the Holy Spirit if He avoided water baptism? To be honest, this was while done yes literally, it was also done for show. To show everyone the Holy Spirit coming from God. God sends the Holy Spirit. Do you think one does not receive the Holy Spirit without a water baptism?Can one enter into God's Kingdom without the Holy Spirit? This will take a long and detailed answer that I will come back to once I have access to my PC.And how about circumcision? Would Christ have been baptized in water if He wasn't circumcised? Christ was acting on the Fathers will. He followed the law perfectly to fulfill it. Therefore he was circumcised at 8 days of age. This is one of those questions were Gods plan had everything happen the way it needed and would have happened. Circumcision was symbolic of a circumcised heart. The OT speaks of thisWould Christ as a son of man be allowed to enter Heaven as a gentile? God does not care of our genealogy. We are all one of the same to him. Jews cared if one was or was not a Jew. God is not partial to anyone. Since Acts 11-15 (Peter's Vision with gentiles being made clean): Are we gentiles baptized in the Holy Spirit through Faith? Are we gentiles circumcised of the heart, in the Spirit, through Faith? Ahh but it doesn’t say gentiles in his vision. It just says unclean food and non ritualized food. Which yes meant non Jewish. BUT when Peter saw the vision, all animals from all animal kingdoms were shown. Birds, mammals, reptiles, sea creatures and so on. The vision was showing all had been made clean. God spoke to the Jews in the OT about being circumcised in the heart in multiple scriptures. God cares about our heart, not our lineage, color, race, land location and so on.
Here is one for you, my genealogy consists of about 1/8 American Indian, Irish, English, and a good chunk of German Hebrew/Jew. My family’s maiden name was on Schindler’s list. So I am both a gentile and a Jew according to my bloodline. Will God favor or care more about my Hebrew/Jewish genealogy? Is more expected of me because of this? [/quote]
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