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Post by domagb on Jan 24, 2018 19:16:24 GMT -6
Saying you need to die on the cross with Christ IS A WORK. Yes, each person should make this profession of dying to self and give his life to Christ, and Christ will accordingly give heavenly reward for obedience on earth. But preaching different levels of salvation or a second baptism of the Spirit is outside of Orthodoxy. No work, you only need to reckon yourself dead. Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
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Post by domagb on Jan 24, 2018 19:23:06 GMT -6
a child has no part of the birth process only the mother. Thus the church must do the work to have believers born again.
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Post by Natalie on Jan 24, 2018 19:34:04 GMT -6
a child has no part of the birth process only the mother. Thus the church must do the work to have believers born again. Can you explain what you mean?
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Post by Natalie on Jan 24, 2018 19:45:38 GMT -6
what about 1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body - whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free - and have all been made to drink unto one Spirit.
Seems to say that all believers are baptized with the Spirit. It's not a separate act that comes later. Water baptism is an outward sign of an inward change...similar to circumcision in the OT.
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Post by domagb on Jan 24, 2018 19:50:34 GMT -6
a child has no part of the birth process only the mother. Thus the church must do the work to have believers born again. Can you explain what you mean? I could be wrong but it appears there is an assumption that I am teaching works. But there is no work to be born again. Just as conception and birth are 2 separate acts, so is believing and being born again. Neither require the child to participate in any work in the process.
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Post by domagb on Jan 24, 2018 19:52:01 GMT -6
what about 1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body - whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free - and have all been made to drink unto one Spirit. Seems to say that all believers are baptized with the Spirit. It's not a separate act that comes later. Water baptism is an outward sign of an inward change...similar to circumcision in the OT. True but what you do with it is what matters! www.gospel-kingdom.com/pb/wp_52a157f1/wp_52a157f1.htmlMatthew 13 18 Therefore hear the parable of the sower. 19 When anyone hears the Word of the kingdom and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and catches away that which was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown by the wayside. 20 But that which was sown on the stony places is this: he who hears the Word and immediately receives it with joy. 21 But he has no root in himself, and is temporary. For when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, he immediately stumbles. 22 And that sown into the thorns is this: he who hears the Word; and the anxiety of this world, and the deceit of riches, choke the Word, and he becomes unfruitful. 23 But that sown on the good ground is this: he who hears the Word and understands; who also bears fruit and produces one truly a hundredfold; and one sixty; and one thirty.The seed is obviously the Word of God, yet it is the plant that dies, how can it die if it is eternal? Because the seed does not die, it can remain, if it isn't taken away. It is due to what you do with it, the condition of the heart. The Word and the Holy Spirit are similar here, both are seeds, or as 2 Cor 1:22 says it is a seal, an earnest. But the Bible shows that the Holy Spirit is a river, and it can flow, and it should over flow in your life. But it doesn't start that way. By the way, what you do, is not work, all you have to do is reckon yourself dead in Christ.
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Post by mike on Jan 25, 2018 7:00:41 GMT -6
domagb - I have some questions about your line of thought as some of things you are stating I'm not reading correctly, misunderstanding or my thoughts arent fully developed. I am or think I am understanding what you are saying in the opener, which I commented on in my "conditional salvation" so I think we're ok there. What is the qualifier for the extra oil? How does one know they have the extra oil or not? Now I read the posts in response to witness1 and fitz and my comment to you on some of the verses you cite is that they are out of context. Matt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. While the gospels are for all of us we need to consider the context in which they are written. When you refer to Luke 4, Luke 14 etc. please remember the context was that He was speaking to the Jews. Further to that point Matt 13 as you cite...How many times have you heard the word, it took root and made an impact on you yet in an area you struggle with (and be honest with yourself here-we all struggle with things) then you fell back into the same sin again? If you're like me the number is too many Where is the requirement that someone has to do something with their salvation? What happens to those individuals who come to a realization (through HIS abundant MERCY & GRACE) that Christ truly died for them and they are moments from death? They did nothing with their faith as it only lasted moments, maybe a couple days. What happens to them at the time of rapture? What happens to those who professed and died as backsliders? These are my questions or along these lines. I see no qualifiers for extra oil here
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Post by rt on Jan 25, 2018 9:31:35 GMT -6
well this is an odd coincidence, this same topic came up on another forum I visit. But before I get into that I would like to point out concerning the judgement of the church, we have in scripture a much less obscure passage that speaks directly to that point and it is found in the Revelation, in the letters to the churches. The Lord Jesus Himself dictates these letters to John. We do not have to interpret an old testament passage as the OP does, it is very plainly spelled out for us:
The church at Ephesus: left their first love, without repentance their lamp stand would be removed, they would essentially no longer exist as a church.
The church at Smyrna: no condemnation/ no judgement
The church at Pergamum: false believers reside among them who partake in idolatry, immorality and who hold to false teachings. Without repentance the Lord will make war against them.
The church at Thyatira: tolerates the false prophet Jezebel and leads people astray into immorality and idolatry, without repentance she will thrown into sickness, and those who follow her into tribulation and her children will be killed with pestilence.
The church at Sardis: is dead/asleep, without repentance, they will not know at what hour the Lord will come, He will come as a thief.
The Chruch at Philedelphia: no condemnation/judgement
The church at Leodicea: They are lukewarm, believeing themselves rich while spiritual they are naked, blind and poor, without repentance they will be spit out of the Lord's mouth
This is how Christ judges the church. Honestly I see this not as judgment on true followers of Christ, He addresses them also in His letters, commending them for their godly and righteous behavior. Rather the judgments fall on those who are not true followers of Christ, but are those who are part of the body of local believers.
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Post by rt on Jan 25, 2018 9:39:57 GMT -6
Paul also speaks about the judgment of the church in 1 Corinthians 5
After rebuking the church at Corinth for allowing one of its members to continue in an immoral relationship without remorse he says the following:
In His letters Jesus points out how harboring the wicked within the confines of the local church can corrupt others, notice that Paul calls the guilty party a "so called brother". The implication is that this person is not truly saved. Then he reminds the church that they themselves judge those within the body, while God judges those without which is why he tells them to remove the wicked man from among them- so that God can judge him.
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Post by rt on Jan 25, 2018 9:54:36 GMT -6
Now as for the whole idea of conditional salvation (this is what came up on the other forum) the discussion concerned our confidence in Christ and our salvation and whether once saved always saved is really true. This is not exactly the topic being discussed here but I think it applies.
I do believe that once we are saved we will remain saved. But I question when salvation really happens. We seem to believe that if someone has a conversion experience that they are necessarily saved. They confess and say a prayer asking Jesus to be their savior and boom, that's it they are saved. But I am not certain that is always the case.
Rather than re write my thoughts I will share what I wrote in my posts on the other forum This was my initial response (OSAS = once saved always saved)
which was followed by others who disagreed with me, I then responded with this:
I think the passage in James says it pretty succinctly, that if we show no fruit that our faith is not true faith.
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Post by domagb on Jan 25, 2018 10:43:46 GMT -6
domagb - I have some questions about your line of thought as some of things you are stating I'm not reading correctly, misunderstanding or my thoughts arent fully developed. I am or think I am understanding what you are saying in the opener, which I commented on in my "conditional salvation" so I think we're ok there. What is the qualifier for the extra oil? How does one know they have the extra oil or not? Now I read the posts in response to witness1 and fitz and my comment to you on some of the verses you cite is that they are out of context. Matt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. While the gospels are for all of us we need to consider the context in which they are written. When you refer to Luke 4, Luke 14 etc. please remember the context was that He was speaking to the Jews. Further to that point Matt 13 as you cite...How many times have you heard the word, it took root and made an impact on you yet in an area you struggle with (and be honest with yourself here-we all struggle with things) then you fell back into the same sin again? If you're like me the number is too many Where is the requirement that someone has to do something with their salvation? What happens to those individuals who come to a realization (through HIS abundant MERCY & GRACE) that Christ truly died for them and they are moments from death? They did nothing with their faith as it only lasted moments, maybe a couple days. What happens to them at the time of rapture? What happens to those who professed and died as backsliders? These are my questions or along these lines. I see no qualifiers for extra oil here The qualifier? How does one know? I grew up Lutheran, and became catholic in the military, I believed in the work of the cross for my salvation. But I did not know I had died on the cross as well. Also I did not know God personally. I had no relationship with God. When a child is in the womb of it's mother, it cannot know it's father. This is the same thing here. In my page Believing vs. Being Born Again, seen here: www.gospel-kingdom.com/pb/wp_27c28d9e/wp_27c28d9e.htmlI give these helpful tips: Religious obedience may sometimes interfere with our relationship to God. Religious obedience has throughout history caused men to believe they are obeying God when they are not. This is due to traditions of men, law, and dead works. Here are some tips to help you decide if you have indeed crossed Jordan and have been born again. 1. Is your faith full of merit badges?
Some people think they have something because they are good, have done some deed or deeds, belong to a church, or have done or been a part of something. To those who have crossed over, this seems haughty and prideful, because our salvation has NOTHING to do with us, and everything to do with God. If your defense on this subject deals with the lack of good works in others, or the lack of holiness in others, this is a problem in you. You are attempting to compare yourself with others. 2 Cor 10:12: For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.
Having crossed over and being born again, does not require an obstacle coarse or test. You don't have to be better; better than before, better than others. Christ, Himself, is our righteousness. Works and holiness are indeed important. But these 2 things do not have any inclusion about salvation and being born again. 2. Are you set in because of your obedience to rules or laws?
Make no mistake, even 1 failure of any law causes you to be a failure of all laws. Jms:2:10: For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Because... Rom 3: 21: But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, ... 22: Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference...
Paul said that before he was saved and born again, he had kept all the laws and was perfect in the eyes of men. Yet he was a failure before God. Phil 3: 3: ... have no confidence in the flesh. 4: Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: 5: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6: Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Making a religious decision to obey God or His laws or rules does not make you Born Again. Yes, there is a choice involved, the choice is to accept Christ and what He has done for you. Also involved, is choosing to walk in the truth of what He has done for you. Remember it is the actual choice, not any percentage of success in the matter. One may find he is unable to walk in newness of life because he is imprisoned or immobile in a hospital bed or other reasons. The process of salvation also is a continual work for the soul, and is a life long work of renewing the mind, which means we will fall and sin. Being Born Again is not a percentage of being able to walk without sin. Whether you think that percentage is 51%, 99%, or 100%. It is a choice to believe God's Word on these matters. One is not more born again than another because he is more obedient to God. This is like saying that a baby who is 5 days old is more of a person than one who is 2 hours old. Or like saying one is more human because he can walk 2 miles on ice without falling than the others who can't walk 10 feet. Or saying one child is more related to the parent than another because they obey more. Success in one's walk does not equate to being saved or born again, but it does equate to sanctification. But one cannot be sanctified until after he is saved and born again. Many in the church today, bypass the Foundations of Christ and seek to enter in the more meaty matters. This will produce a spiritual house that will not stand. Math 7: 21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24: Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26: And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
This sending away, Christ speaks of in verse 23 is believed by many of those sent into hell or the Lake of Fire. This is NOT true. This is the separation of the sheep from the sheep: Ezek 34 NKJV 17 "And as for you, O My flock, thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, I shall judge between sheep and sheep, between rams and goats.
2 Tim 2: (MKJV) 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honor, and some to dishonor.
Many in the church today are putting the cart before the horse. You cannot build your sanctification or your works for God (ministry) without 1st crossing Jordan. Jesus will NOT recognize it and it will be burnt up, yet you will be saved. 1 Cor 3: MKJV 12 And if anyone builds on this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble, 13 each one's work shall be revealed. For the Day shall declare it , because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try each one's work as to what kind it is. 14 If anyone's work which he built remains, he shall receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work shall be burned up, he shall suffer loss. But he shall be saved, yet so as by fire.
Here is another way to see if you are Born Again: NKJV John 3: 3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Belief in Jesus by knowledge is of the flesh. Yet, if we believe because the Bible tells us so, this will produce faith. (Faith comes by hearing the Word of God - Rom 10:17) One must work the faith and walk in faith to be Born Again. Let's continue in John 3: 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit." 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
These 2 verses speak of the confusion others who are not born again have of those who are. If you do not understand their ways or the spiritual things in scripture, it is a sign you may not be born again. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."
When you are born again, you may still have sins, for sin nature still abides in you, but you will no longer walk in sin and practice it continually. Those still in the womb, are in darkness, they must be born again to come into and live in the light. Crossing Jordan into the Promise Land, and being satisfied with God's lot for your life is part of the Born Again experience. The breaking of the Jordan waters, is like the breaking of the water from the womb. It leads you into the Promised Land. When Paul wrote to the Galatians, he was concerned about them returning to the law to finish their faith. I spoke on this above. Working laws to accomplish your salvation is unacceptable and will not get you Born Again: Gal 4: 19: My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, 20: I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you. 21: Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
You see Paul was travailing again, to birth them. We know they are saved, because this is written to the church in Galatia. He doubted their Born Again experience as seen in verse 20. So some declare that such folks were never saved in the 1st place, but these verses show they were not Born Again, separate from salvation. More later gotta go to work...
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Post by kjs on Jan 25, 2018 10:45:44 GMT -6
WARNING
The thread has been flagged as containing some false doctrine -- after reviewing some of the posts -- I concur (along with a few other moderators).
This entire thread is in danger of being LOCKED!
By all means have a healthy and friendly debate about items of OSAS, Falling Away, Back-sliding....
BUT DO NOT question a member's "salvation status" or their rapture readiness .....
Doing so breaks one of our few rules.....
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Post by mike on Jan 25, 2018 10:46:50 GMT -6
I find it interesting rt that we as believers can have different views on such things. It does baffle me In my Christian life I began with a similar belief system. If I didnt try harder to not sin today than I did yesterday God would not approve and I may not be counted worthy of the rapture, which is where this thread starts. Since the church I attended taught imminence (not that it is wrong) I thought I had to better each day. Unfortunately that led to the demise of my walk and even somewhat my faith. Since my wake up call! I have learned much about grace and realize that I have so much more to learn. during some of the learning here on Unsealed socalexile (led/used by the Holy Spirit) helped open my eyes/heart to the realization of the difference between salvation and discipleship. He has commented on it several times, so rather than me try to regurgitate, i will quote from a post written about this topic in November by socalexile Following Christ daily leads us to our eternal rewards (BEMA seat) where we will all be one day as believers. Now for Ray Boltz or others like him I am no judge, is he saved? Does he still believe that Jesus died, shed His blood and rose again? If yes is the answer, even though he practices an immoral lifestyle he too will be raptured. YUP that is the only qualifier. Now will he be rewarded for not following (any longer)? His reward will be according to his works. Additionally there are consequences to sin, & iniquity here, right now. As we are all aware that lifestyle can/will lead to issue with disease or other health related problems, in addition to the emotional/spiritual implications of "believing" that lifestyle is acceptable or permissible and within Gods standards. Keep in mind as James says "we break one rule, we break them all". We are all in the same boat in that regard, but keep in mind the context to whom each epistle was written.
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Post by rt on Jan 25, 2018 12:52:55 GMT -6
Hi mike You know I do not at all disagree with you, my only point is that the grace of God in us results in His work being performed in us and through us. Salvation is completely and totally a work of God's grace in those who believe. You and I agree on that. But what James appears to say and what I believe is that the grace of God will necessarily produce His work of righteousness in us. I am not saying that we no longer sin, I am not suggesting that is the case whatsoever, because His grace not only saves but because we live in corrupted bodies it sanctifies as well! I do believe however that there are people that reside within the local church who may think they are saved because they have a knowledge of God's word, they have heard it, but it has not actually taken root in their lives. Ray Boltz admitted that he was living a lie while he was claiming to follow Christ, he said that he was gay for a long time. I cannot say for certain whether or not he is saved but I do know that God's word is clear that homosexuals will not enter the kingdom. I cannot reconcile the idea that one who willingly and boldly practices and even promotes what is to God an abomination is saved. I could understand the fleshly struggle, I could understand if one falls into temptation and is convicted and seeks repentance only to fall again. But open rebellion against God and what his word clearly states is sin, in my mind defies the Holy Spirit and the very nature of what a redeemed person is- a child of God, a son of light. I am not saying this is true of Mr. Boltz or that he is in the same category, but the 12 disciples had no idea that Judas was the one who would betray Jesus, they had no idea that he was stealing from the money box all along. He looked and behaved just as they did when they were together, he followed Christ, he joined them in their activities and for all intents and purposes in the eyes of the rest of the disciples Judas was one of them. Yet Satan entered him and moved him to betray Jesus. Scripture calls him the son of perdition in John 17:12, so will Judas enter into God's kingdom? As a thief, a liar and a murderer I seriously doubt it though he did show some remorse for his actions, it was not sorrow leading to repentance. This is my point. Not everyone who claims to follow the Lord actually does. Not everyone who has had some kind of conversion "experience" is actually saved. We do not know what kind of heart the seed falls on, but we can recognize God's work in someone's life or the lack thereof. Paul says put the wicked man out from among yourselves. Just because someone is in the local church body does not necessarily make them part of the body of Christ. One can hear, but hearing alone does not save, believing does. True belief will lead to God's work performed within and through the one who is justified. It is inevitable, if you are saved, the Holy Spirit will work in and through you to perform the good works of Christ.As the true body of Christ we must recognize sin and deal with it, (see Matthew 18) the danger as Paul alluded to and as Christ pointed to is that those who engage in sin who are tolerated and not dealt with and are allowed to continue within the local body ultimately can cause the church to become corrupted. I see the letters to the churches as a picture of the how the church would be corrupted over time. First you have Ephesus who loses their first love of Christ and for each other, followed by persecution which removes many true believers from among them, then you have false believers enter into the fellowship who cause some to stumble, followed by false teachers claiming to speak for God who lead people astray, which leads to a church that is asleep with barely any semblance to the true faith, it is essentially spiritually dead, which then is followed by what I believe is the rapture (Philadelphia) of those who are kept from the hour of testing, followed by the lukewarm church of wealth, that the Lord promises to reprove and discipline through refining fires of tribulation ( AKA the first half of the tribulation).
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Post by mike on Jan 25, 2018 13:26:45 GMT -6
Thanks RT, I understand where you are coming from. I am not to persuade you or anyone else of something they feel is what God has shown them unless its clearly error. While many feel/believe or have felt/believed the way you do, I am not one (any longer). Although we may be getting a bit off topic I would like to point to a thread where I know the above passages and the exact context of 1Cor 6 & Rev 21 were cited by me and I now feel/believe I was in error (as I believe barbiosheepgirl was similarly persuaded?). The response to that is copied here and the full dialogue in the link below unsealed.boards.net/thread/802/venting-christians-simply-believe-gospelEDIT- back to my original question/point:SO I guess my question remains, how hard do I have to try to follow (I do believe when we walk in the spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh) to not be left out when the rapture happens? But the battle is that of walking in the spirit vs the flesh. Aside from that what other qualifier(s)? I mean look at Matthew 5:27-28 (YLT) ‘Ye heard that it was said to the ancients: Thou shalt not commit adultery; 28 but I — I say to you, that every one who is looking on a woman to desire her, did already commit adultery with her in his heart. I'm guilty of that, yesterday, maybe later today possibly tomorrow or the day following! As I read 1 Cor 6:19-21 & Rev 21:8 in the context you place it, I aint makin' the cut! So I follow the Savior, slip up DAILY (in one way shape or form) because I am confined to the flesh suit, yet based on how I'm reading what youre saying, I wont be raptured. Am I misreading? Make no mistake we are in a battle. Some days we make progress again the enemies, other times we lose the battle. Our war was won already. we are on that side, with the Victor! While in some areas we realize that, yet in others we do not, still we persevere and unfortunately others sometimes quit the fight. Do they lose the victory already won with Christ? EDIT 2 - After thinking some more I think the point you were trying to make was the difference between a person who simply says "yeah sure I believe Christ died for sins" and someone who is a follower. Is that right?
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