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Post by thetimeoftheend on Jan 26, 2018 11:09:41 GMT -6
I think another thing that we need to remember is what Christ's sacrifice does for us - it expiates us from our sin, separates it as far is east is from west. Revelation 21:8 is clear about who will not be let into heaven, we focus on idolaters, homosexuals, and adulterers, but forget that it also includes immoral people. Sin is immoral by its very nature, yet we all willfully sin in open rebellion to God every day of our lives. What can be more immoral than willfully defying a just God everyday?
Paul discussed this in Romans 7:25, our thanks is to God because we serve the law of flesh everyday- yet Christ's sacrifice is perfect, His righteousness imputed upon us. None of this is an excuse to sin, but a reminder that we cannot cast stones when we are not without sin ourselves. It shows us just how wretched we are and how wonderful and perfect Christs sacrafic was.
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Post by kjs on Jan 26, 2018 11:26:37 GMT -6
thetimeoftheend and fitzThank you both….. That is the point I been trying to make …. If someone wants to bash homosexuality or adultery or murder or lying or coveting or PRIDE …. About how any and all of these are bring “judgement” on the church …. GO FOR IT…… BUT we have all been warned by Jesus Christ to remove the plank out of our own eye, before we mention the splinter in a bother’s eye….. This thread is not to accuse, bad mouth, or judge specific individuals by name – no matter how gruesome your opinion of that individual is….. We are not God and we sure cannot see what is in the heart of an individual.
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Post by domagb on Jan 26, 2018 11:44:38 GMT -6
I think we have a tendency to make this quite difficult when it is not: If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9 There are no caveats - it's straightforward. Yet we forget that we are ALL wretched and need a savior, and that it is Christ perfect and sufficient sacrafic that saves us. Who are we to condemn those who's sin is public, while ours is private? Scripture tells us what we should do with wayward brothers - as correction. It does not give us the ability to make judgements about their soul. Only God can search the heart. My intent of this thread is not to question salvation, but to share, one must be born again to be raptured. I hope I am wrong, but scripture seems to say there is a difference between being saved and being born again. I think this shows it is equally comparable to conception vs birth.
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Post by mike on Jan 26, 2018 11:55:44 GMT -6
I wanted to circle back to rt's comment on 1 Cor 5 as I read the whole chapter and wanted to stress context. I am not going to say its ok for us to blatantly sin, whether its with man or woman or animal or robot! I think this conversation can continue to challenge us and help us learn so as long as we heed kjs directive, i'd like to continue dialogue with whoever wants to continue. Onto 1 Cor 5 This person was having relations with his fathers (second, third, fourth) wife(/step-mom?) and apparently the corinthians didnt seem to mind (verse 2) and were "glorying and/or puffed-up". He is addressing this attitude they had towards this and instructing them to cast him out before he corrupts everyone! He then goes on to address or remind them of another letter (which God did not preserve for us) where he advised them to stay away from the "habitual sinners" of that nature. I think that the unbelieving world sees this and has the reluctance to "Christianity" as having too many rules, but most of us have experienced this resistance, at least in my neck of the woods
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Post by kjs on Jan 26, 2018 12:24:36 GMT -6
My intent of this thread is not to question salvation, but to share, one must be born again to be raptured. I hope I am wrong, but scripture seems to say there is a difference between being saved and being born again. I think this shows it is equally comparable to conception vs birth. Please show the scriptures that point to a difference between "salvation" and "born again".... Modern Christianity (ie present age) use the terms interchangeably -- meaning the both represent the exact same thing....
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Post by mike on Jan 26, 2018 12:46:16 GMT -6
My intent of this thread is not to question salvation, but to share, one must be born again to be raptured. I hope I am wrong, but scripture seems to say there is a difference between being saved and being born again. I think this shows it is equally comparable to conception vs birth. Please show the scriptures that point to a difference between "salvation" and "born again".... Modern Christianity (ie present age) use the terms interchangeably -- meaning the both represent the exact same thing.... Acts 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 1 Pet 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
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Post by kjs on Jan 26, 2018 14:12:40 GMT -6
Please show the scriptures that point to a difference between "salvation" and "born again".... Modern Christianity (ie present age) use the terms interchangeably -- meaning the both represent the exact same thing.... Acts 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 1 Pet 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. Umm, the verses say the exact same thing.... Salvation is On (or thru) Jesus Christ -- we die with Jesus Christ so that we may be raised with Jesus Christ...... The being raised is the New Birth (or being born again).......
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Post by domagb on Jan 26, 2018 14:58:49 GMT -6
Please show the scriptures that point to a difference between "salvation" and "born again".... Modern Christianity (ie present age) use the terms interchangeably -- meaning the both represent the exact same thing.... Acts 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 1 Pet 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. I think the scripture's picture of the tabernacle of Moses is a great example of this. At the Brazen Alter you are saved. This represents Jesus death, but at the laver is what represents water baptism, which many accept as symbolic as the Born Again experience. Thus this imagery is Biblical. While the Old is still profitable for doctrine, we must realize the New says the Old is a shadow. Heb 8:5: Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. Heb 10:1: For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.When we believe in Jesus and His death for our sins, we become conceived spiritually. Jesus seals us with His Holy Spirit and His incorruptible seed, the Word of God is implanted in our heart. But, such people need to be born again. They are conceived, but not born again yet. John 1: 12: But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Here in John we specifically see that becoming a son of God is only a possibility after receive Him. 2 different things, and having 1 doesn't automatically give you the 2nd.
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Post by domagb on Jan 26, 2018 15:24:42 GMT -6
Not from my website: thepatternonline.org/the-brazen-altarTHE BRAZEN ALTAR – Representing the cross or death to sin. Justification – Made just as if you had never sinned. Salvation – Redemption – Bought and paid for. THE BRAZEN LAVER– Representing Death to Self typified in baptism – Entering into a Covenant relationship with God. Baptism – Entering into a Covenant of death, burial and Resurrection with Christ. Sanctification – Made clean and acceptable to God Consecration – Putting aside that which is cleansed for the purpose of God’s use alone. the-tabernacle-place.com/articles/what_is_the_tabernacle/tabernacle_brazen_altarAlthough the blood of the sacrifices covered over the sins of the Israelites, they had to perform the sacrifices year after year, for they were not freed permanently of a guilty conscience. However, Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, came as the ultimate and last sacrifice for mankind when He offered up His life. As Isaiah prophesied, the Christ would be like a lamb that is led to slaughter and pierced for our transgressions. His blood was sprinkled and poured out at the cross for us. www.endtime.com/what-do-you-mean-born-again/After the shedding of blood, the priests were ordered to wash at the laver and to cleanse themselves with water in preparation for entering the Holy Place. The laver, a round fountain-like structure, was overlaid in the bottom with a looking glass. When the priest bent over to wash, he was able to see himself so that he could be sure that he was clean. When an individual is baptized, he should examine himself to be sure that he is leaving the world behind once and for all. We see then that the second step of the tabernacle ministry plainly teaches us of water baptism. Blood and water were used to cleanse and prepare them for entry into the Holy Place, even as blood and water cleanses us in preparation of receiving the Holy One into our lives!
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Post by thetimeoftheend on Jan 26, 2018 16:30:15 GMT -6
Not from my website: thepatternonline.org/the-brazen-altarTHE BRAZEN ALTAR – Representing the cross or death to sin. Justification – Made just as if you had never sinned. Salvation – Redemption – Bought and paid for. THE BRAZEN LAVER– Representing Death to Self typified in baptism – Entering into a Covenant relationship with God. Baptism – Entering into a Covenant of death, burial and Resurrection with Christ. Sanctification – Made clean and acceptable to God Consecration – Putting aside that which is cleansed for the purpose of God’s use alone. the-tabernacle-place.com/articles/what_is_the_tabernacle/tabernacle_brazen_altarAlthough the blood of the sacrifices covered over the sins of the Israelites, they had to perform the sacrifices year after year, for they were not freed permanently of a guilty conscience. However, Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, came as the ultimate and last sacrifice for mankind when He offered up His life. As Isaiah prophesied, the Christ would be like a lamb that is led to slaughter and pierced for our transgressions. His blood was sprinkled and poured out at the cross for us. www.endtime.com/what-do-you-mean-born-again/After the shedding of blood, the priests were ordered to wash at the laver and to cleanse themselves with water in preparation for entering the Holy Place. The laver, a round fountain-like structure, was overlaid in the bottom with a looking glass. When the priest bent over to wash, he was able to see himself so that he could be sure that he was clean. When an individual is baptized, he should examine himself to be sure that he is leaving the world behind once and for all. We see then that the second step of the tabernacle ministry plainly teaches us of water baptism. Blood and water were used to cleanse and prepare them for entry into the Holy Place, even as blood and water cleanses us in preparation of receiving the Holy One into our lives! So how does one become born again as opposed to just saved? I think that is the fundamental question now being posed. As mike made clear in his post, as well as kjs scripture makes salvation and being born again synonomous. So are you saying the difference is water baptism? How would that comport with scripture telling us you must be born again to see the kingdom of heaven? So if being born again is some step above salvation as you seem to be arguing - What good then is salvation if only being born again allows entrance into God's kingdom?
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Post by mike on Jan 26, 2018 17:19:01 GMT -6
Acts 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 1 Pet 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. Umm, the verses say the exact same thing.... Salvation is On (or thru) Jesus Christ -- we die with Jesus Christ so that we may be raised with Jesus Christ...... The being raised is the New Birth (or being born again)....... Yeah I did a really bad job saying that
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Post by domagb on Jan 26, 2018 18:13:17 GMT -6
So how does one become born again as opposed to just saved? I think that is the fundamental question now being posed. As mike made clear in his post, as well as kjs scripture makes salvation and being born again synonomous. So are you saying the difference is water baptism? How would that comport with scripture telling us you must be born again to see the kingdom of heaven? So if being born again is some step above salvation as you seem to be arguing - What good then is salvation if only being born again allows entrance into God's kingdom? As I shared earlier, the difference, is getting the 2nd work of the cross in your life. The 1st is accepting the work of Christ's death for your sins, the 2nd is reckoning that you have died with Christ on the cross and are a new creature. Those who are saved, but not born again will live outside New Jerusalem. Luke 14: NKJV 34 "Salt is good; but if the salt has lost its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? 35 It is neither fit for the land nor for the dunghill, but men throw it out. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"
They are not fit for the land which is the Kingdom, nor are they fit for the dunghill which is Hell or the Lake of Fire, so they are cast out. Out where? Rev 21: MKJV 24 And the nations of those who are saved will walk in the light of it; and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honor of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no way enter into it anything that defiles, or any making an abomination or a lie; but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.
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Post by domagb on Jan 26, 2018 18:21:58 GMT -6
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Post by rt on Jan 26, 2018 19:55:01 GMT -6
sorry to have upset anyone, I do not wish to do so, though I have to confess I am a bit unnerved by certain words used toward me, and accusations that I believe are unfounded. Apparently the point I was trying to make was lost on folks here who misinterpreted my intention. I shall relent and pass on any further comment.
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Post by yardstick on Jan 26, 2018 22:22:27 GMT -6
In First Corinthians 3:15, the apostle Paul wrote about the loss that can be created by fire. He wrote, “If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.” The believer is saved, but at the Bema seat judgement, per se, their works will be tested by fire. Some will come through that experience "smelling of smoke". As if just barely escaping the fires of hell...yet they will be saved. The only work you can't burn up is trusting in Christ. [Edit] I should be clear...the Bema seat judgement isn't a judgement, but primarily for the rewards we receive for the treasure we've stored in heaven. Those works that won't burn up. And there is no punishment here at all. It's quite a happy event...receiving crowns from Jesus ( I think 5 different crowns) ...only to turn around and cast them at His feet! But, the rest of our "works" that don't stand the test are chaff, that was my point. I find this intriguing. Can you elaborate please?
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