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Post by kjs on Jan 25, 2018 14:10:25 GMT -6
Hi mike You know I do not at all disagree with you, my only point is that the grace of God in us results in His work being performed in us and through us. Salvation is completely and totally a work of God's grace in those who believe. You and I agree on that. But what James appears to say and what I believe is that the grace of God will necessarily produce His work of righteousness in us. I am not saying that we no longer sin, I am not suggesting that is the case whatsoever, because His grace not only saves but because we live in corrupted bodies it sanctifies as well! I do believe however that there are people that reside within the local church who may think they are saved because they have a knowledge of God's word, they have heard it, but it has not actually taken root in their lives. Ray Boltz admitted that he was living a lie while he was claiming to follow Christ, he said that he was gay for a long time. I cannot say for certain whether or not he is saved but I do know that God's word is clear that homosexuals will not enter the kingdom. I cannot reconcile the idea that one who willingly and boldly practices and even promotes what is to God an abomination is saved. I could understand the fleshly struggle, I could understand if one falls into temptation and is convicted and seeks repentance only to fall again. But open rebellion against God and what his word clearly states is sin, in my mind defies the Holy Spirit and the very nature of what a redeemed person is- a child of God, a son of light. I am not saying this is true of Mr. Boltz or that he is in the same category, but the 12 disciples had no idea that Judas was the one who would betray Jesus, they had no idea that he was stealing from the money box all along. He looked and behaved just as they did when they were together, he followed Christ, he joined them in their activities and for all intents and purposes in the eyes of the rest of the disciples Judas was one of them. Yet Satan entered him and moved him to betray Jesus. Scripture calls him the son of perdition in John 17:12, so will Judas enter into God's kingdom? As a thief, a liar and a murderer I seriously doubt it though he did show some remorse for his actions, it was not sorrow leading to repentance. This is my point. Not everyone who claims to follow the Lord actually does. Not everyone who has had some kind of conversion "experience" is actually saved. We do not know what kind of heart the seed falls on, but we can recognize God's work in someone's life or the lack thereof. Paul says put the wicked man out from among yourselves. Just because someone is in the local church body does not necessarily make them part of the body of Christ. One can hear, but hearing alone does not save, believing does. True belief will lead to God's work performed within and through the one who is justified. It is inevitable, if you are saved, the Holy Spirit will work in and through you to perform the good works of Christ.As the true body of Christ we must recognize sin and deal with it, (see Matthew 18) the danger as Paul alluded to and as Christ pointed to is that those who engage in sin who are tolerated and not dealt with and are allowed to continue within the local body ultimately can cause the church to become corrupted. I see the letters to the churches as a picture of the how the church would be corrupted over time. First you have Ephesus who loses their first love of Christ and for each other, followed by persecution which removes many true believers from among them, then you have false believers enter into the fellowship who cause some to stumble, followed by false teachers claiming to speak for God who lead people astray, which leads to a church that is asleep with barely any semblance to the true faith, it is essentially spiritually dead, which then is followed by what I believe is the rapture (Philadelphia) of those who are kept from the hour of testing, followed by the lukewarm church of wealth, that the Lord promises to reprove and discipline through refining fires of tribulation ( AKA the first half of the tribulation).
rt -- as you admit you cannot say for sure 100% that Ray B is or is not a Christian. You can speculate (which you have done here) and that speculation is just another form of YOUR judgement. NO ONE knows who is save and who is not saved -- I believe Paul says in Romans that the world groans for that revelation (ones being saved). This whole portion of Ray B. is getting very off topic ... so suggest we just drop this version of the thread. =========== Moving on to the Matt 7 portion -- this is the portion that people love to debate -- BUT they really DO NOT UNDERSTAND... The key understanding to this passage is found in verse 22 -- "22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’"Did you catch when highlighted? Their response back to the Lord -- WAS "DID WE NOT do this or not do this" THEY are depending upon their own works to get them in........ IT is all about what Jesus DID and GIFTED to US ..... we do NOTHING! IF a person has truly come to the end of themselves and realize there is absolutely NOTHING they can do or ever do to meet the righteous requirements of God; AND believe that Jesus Christ has done it all for them and has gifted that righteousness to them -- then they are saved..... And Yes, that includes someone going out the next day and murdering a room full of people.... hypothetically speaking .... for it is doubtful such a situation would ever arise.
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Post by barb84 on Jan 25, 2018 15:04:18 GMT -6
22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’" It struck me recently that these actions are things some famous "preachers" do, perhaps for their own fame and fortune. Things like "we gave up our coat or food for the poor, or did things anonymously to help someone" are not listed. I ramble, so maybe this doesn't make sense.
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Post by domagb on Jan 25, 2018 18:19:47 GMT -6
Where is the requirement that someone has to do something with their salvation? What happens to those individuals who come to a realization (through HIS abundant MERCY & GRACE) that Christ truly died for them and they are moments from death? They did nothing with their faith as it only lasted moments, maybe a couple days. What happens to them at the time of rapture? What happens to those who professed and died as backsliders? These are my questions or along these lines. I see no qualifiers for extra oil hereI believe there may be a 2nd rapture, and those christians left behind may have access to that. However. I am not certain, others have taught more on that. But even if there isn't they have other blessings: Math 20: MKJV 8 So when evening had come, the lord of the vineyard said to his steward, Call the laborers and pay them their wage, beginning from the last to the first. 10 But when the first came, they supposed that they would received more; and they also each one received a denarius. 11 And receiving it they murmured against the master of the house, 12 saying, These last have worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden and heat of the day. 13 But he answered one of them and said, Friend, I do you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius? 14 Take yours, and go; I will give to this last one the same as to you. 16 So the last shall be first, and the first last, for many are called, but few are chosen.
Here we see the laborers who responded first, think they will receive a greater reward. Many christians who have crossed over Jordan are judgmental of those believers who have not crossed over or have crossed over later (see the parable of the lost son too). We also see from this parable that the late comers will be rewarded first. Why is this? Because they will be on the earth during the tribulation and will be found faithful. So much faithful, their faith and works will out weight those who escaped. Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from Heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, they shall rest from their labors, and their works follow them.
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Post by domagb on Jan 25, 2018 18:22:41 GMT -6
well this is an odd coincidence, this same topic came up on another forum I visit. But before I get into that I would like to point out concerning the judgement of the church, we have in scripture a much less obscure passage that speaks directly to that point and it is found in the Revelation, in the letters to the churches. The Lord Jesus Himself dictates these letters to John. We do not have to interpret an old testament passage as the OP does, it is very plainly spelled out for us: The church at Ephesus: left their first love, without repentance their lamp stand would be removed, they would essentially no longer exist as a church. The church at Smyrna: no condemnation/ no judgement The church at Pergamum: false believers reside among them who partake in idolatry, immorality and who hold to false teachings. Without repentance the Lord will make war against them. The church at Thyatira: tolerates the false prophet Jezebel and leads people astray into immorality and idolatry, without repentance she will thrown into sickness, and those who follow her into tribulation and her children will be killed with pestilence. The church at Sardis: is dead/asleep, without repentance, they will not know at what hour the Lord will come, He will come as a thief. The Chruch at Philedelphia: no condemnation/judgement The church at Leodicea: They are lukewarm, believeing themselves rich while spiritual they are naked, blind and poor, without repentance they will be spit out of the Lord's mouth This is how Christ judges the church. Honestly I see this not as judgment on true followers of Christ, He addresses them also in His letters, commending them for their godly and righteous behavior. Rather the judgments fall on those who are not true followers of Christ, but are those who are part of the body of local believers. Absolutely, there are better scriptures and I discuss them on pages on my website, but was encouraged when I read these in Ezek!
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Post by domagb on Jan 25, 2018 18:26:48 GMT -6
WARNINGThe thread has been flagged as containing some false doctrine -- after reviewing some of the posts -- I concur (along with a few other moderators). This entire thread is in danger of being LOCKED! By all means have a healthy and friendly debate about items of OSAS, Falling Away, Back-sliding.... BUT DO NOT question a member's "salvation status" or their rapture readiness .....Doing so breaks one of our few rules..... I agree that's why I often state this: Rom 10:6 But the righteousness of faith says this: "Do not say in your heart, Who shall ascend into Heaven?" that is, to bring Christ down; 7 or "Who shall descend into the deep?"; that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.We do not have authority to say if someone is saved or not, we can only be confident in our own walk, although mixed with fear and trembling.
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Post by Natalie on Jan 25, 2018 19:27:01 GMT -6
God will not leave any believers behind to go through the Tribulation. 1 Thes 4:17 "Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord." This is all believers. It's not a select group out of all believers.
The Church is the Bride of Christ, caught up to be with Him where He is (John 14) Why would He split the body of Christ?
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Post by domagb on Jan 25, 2018 19:45:45 GMT -6
God will not leave any believers behind to go through the Tribulation. 1 Thes 4:17 "Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord." This is all believers. It's not a select group out of all believers. The Church is the Bride of Christ, caught up to be with Him where He is (John 14) Why would He split the body of Christ? Rev 2: KJ21
18 ... `These things saith the Son of God, who hath His eyes like unto a flame of fire, and His feet are like fine brass: 19 I know thy works, and charity and service, and faith and thy patience, and thy works, and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding, I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, who calleth herself a prophetess,to teach and to seduce My servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication, and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He that searcheth the reins and hearts; and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine and who have not known the depths of Satan (as they say) I will put upon you no other burden. 25 But that which ye have already, hold fast till I come. 26 And he that overcometh and keepeth My works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations, 27 and "he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers," even as I have received from My Father. 28 And I will give him the morning star.
Did you see verse 22? " ...them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds" He, Jesus, is speaking to the church. There are some in the church who will suffer the great tribulation. Math 25: MKJV 1 Then shall the kingdom of Heaven be likened to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 The foolish ones took their lamps, but took no oil with them. 4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. 6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom comes! Go out to meet him. 7 Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said to the wise, Give us some of your oil, for our lamps have gone out. 9 But the wise answered, saying, No , lest there be not enough for us and you. But rather go to those who sell, and buy for yourselves. 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came. And they who were ready went in with him to the marriage, and the door was shut. 11 Afterwards the other virgins came also, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12 But he answered and said, Truly I say to you, I do not know you. 13 Therefore watch, for you do not know either the day or the hour in which the Son of man comes.
We see in verse 8 that the foolish had oil in their lamps, but did not take extra oil in jars like the wise did, so when their oil began to burn out, they asked for more. Oil represents the Holy Spirit. When you believe in Jesus to salvation you get the seed of God in your life, which is the Holy Spirit and/or the Word of God (just the seed thereof). Math 24: MKJV 40 Then two shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Therefore watch; for you do not know what hour your Lord comes. 43 But know this, that if the steward of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched and would not have allowed his house to be dug through. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for in that hour you think not, the Son of man comes. 45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his Lord has made ruler over His household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his Lord shall find him doing so when He comes. 47 Truly I say to you that He shall make him ruler over all His goods. 48 But if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My Lord delays His coming, 49 and shall begin to strike his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunken, 50 the Lord of that servant shall come in a day when he does not look for Him , and in an hour which he does not know. 51 And He shall cut him apart and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. This series of verses show not only will 50% be left behind, but those taken will be given place in the government of God. Verse 51 of Math 24 looks alot like Rev 2:22. 51 And He shall cut him apart and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.
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Post by Natalie on Jan 25, 2018 20:06:47 GMT -6
I think it could be argued that those following Jezebel are following a different gospel and are not true believers. That is why they are left behind. He addresses the believers in Rev 2:24 "But to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching..."
Some interpret Math 24:40-51 as being at the Second Coming. The ones that are taken are those sent to judgment (the goats) and the ones that are left will stay to populate the earth in the Millennial Reign (sheep).
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Post by domagb on Jan 25, 2018 20:30:07 GMT -6
I think it could be argued that those following Jezebel are following a different gospel and are not true believers. That is why they are left behind. He addresses the believers in Rev 2:24 "But to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching..." Some interpret Math 24:40-51 as being at the Second Coming. The ones that are taken are those sent to judgment (the goats) and the ones that are left will stay to populate the earth in the Millennial Reign (sheep). Could be, but we know this is a church. One which the Lord calls a church. So Jesus, Himself, says some in the church will be left behind. I do NOT question their salvation. When Paul wrote to the Galatians, he was concerned about them. Gal 4: 19: My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, 20: I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.
You see Paul was travailing again, to birth them. We know they the church in Galatia. He doubted their Born Again experience as seen in verse 20. So some declare that such folks were never saved in the 1st place, but these verses show they were not Born Again, nothing else.
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Post by domagb on Jan 25, 2018 20:49:10 GMT -6
I was raised Lutheran and became Catholic, these denominations do NOT teach the born again experience. My step dad, who grew up catholic became born again when a protestant friend lead him to the experience. I myself had a similar experience later in life. I will not denounce these denominations as being unsaved. But anyone who has lived within them and then became born again afterwards can easily see there is a difference. The Lutherans and the catholics, in general are not born again, and if asked, will say so, and some will even denounce the born again movement. To label them as being born again would not be a wise decision, but to denounce their salvation would be even more foolish. An example and more detail from a Catholic position: Are Catholics Born Again? www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2007/mbrumley_bornagain_nov07.asp
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Post by rt on Jan 26, 2018 9:19:12 GMT -6
mike said: (Edit 2) More or less, yes. (Edit 1) What I am trying to say is that if we are true followers of Christ His light will shine through us, His works will be manifested in us whether in small ways or great ways, despite our sinful nature. It is not in "trying hard to follow" rather it is actually in the battle that the works of God are perfected in us. The fact that you recognize the struggle within you is a testament to the convicting power of the Holy Spirit. If I did not recognize my guilt when I sin then I would question whether or not the Spirit resides within me. Yes those of us follow Christ fail miserably all the time, as we mature in Him our failures become less frequent and our failures more minor, this is what we call sanctification, but we will still fall short until the day we are perfected in Him upon our resurrection. When we do fail we are convicted by the Holy Spirit, we then confess and do our best to repent, this is a work of God in us as we cooperate with the leading of the Holy Spirit. Our testimony, how we live our lives is is a light to others around us, that shines forth the grace of God to a darkened world. I look at my own life, before I was saved I was not what one would call a "bad" person. I was a young teen, about to follow in the footsteps of my older siblings, whose lives exhibited the fruits of the flesh for sure. When I heard the gospel and responded to it the changes that happened in me weren't dramatic, but there was change, I am sure we all can attest to the change that Christ wrought in each of us. I was convicted about lying, I was convicted of my lack of love and respect for those in authority, I was convicted to read and study God's word, I was convicted of my treatment of others and so on. It is a natural byproduct of salvation, one that we need to be reminded of, less we doubt our calling. Peter says something similar here: He says that through God's grace we have been given the ability to partake of the divine nature, our obligation is to diligently supply (that word in the Greek means to nourish) our faith with what essentially amounts to the fruits of the Spirit. He then goes on to say that if these qualities are ours and are increasing we will be useful and fruitful. Those who do not have these qualities are either blind (unsaved) or short- sighted, having forgotten their purification from sin. That term "short sighted" means to see dimly, or to see only what is near, it also bears the connotation of a failure to understand, which is reminiscent of what James says The one who initially recognizes that he is a sinner in need of a savior and then walks away and forgets is one who is short sighted. he is a hearer only who deludes himself, and what is his delusion? That he believes he is in God's favor, that what he does serves God. As James goes on to say: Peter says that as long as we practice these things we will never stumble and the way into the kingdom is abundantly supplied. So what does all this mean? God by His grace has given us the means through Christ to be partakers of His righteousness, He gave us the Holy Spirit who resides within us to accomplish this transference. In doing so we have the means supplied to us and as we feed our faith by practicing these things we will grow in them, and we will never stumble ( so as to lose our ability to enter the kingdom). The Holy Spirit supplies the spiritual food we need to grow in our faith. It is not our work, but the work of the Holy Spirit as we feed ourselves spiritual food. It is the food that nourishes our faith, it is our obligation to eat it, or to put it into practice. In the parable of the sower the "good soil" is the only one to bear fruit, I believe the good soil is the one that is justified, hence the use of the word "good", because our hearts can only be made "good" by the power of Christ's atonement for sin. I believe that growth in the divine nature results in good works, in fruit born in our lives as a natural byproduct of the working of the Holy Spirit as we daily surrender, and as we confess and repent of sin and grow in our knowledge of Christ.
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Post by rt on Jan 26, 2018 10:05:24 GMT -6
kjs saidI will put this to rest but I would like to clarify that I am not condemning Ray Boltz, and I am not speculating about his sin, it is blatant and obvious and put on display via youtube by the man himself for all the world to see. In Paul's word to the Corinthians he would be considered a "so called brother" and a "wicked" man. This thread is about the judgment of the church and therefore I believe this example applies. Doesn't Paul himself tell the Corinthians that it is their obligation to judge those within the church? It is pretty obvious that what Mr. Boltz is engaged in is blatantly immoral, and he continues to say he serves God while flaunting his sin. I would say that is a very close match to what Paul was dealing with in Corinth. Paul would consider him a "so called brother" based on his judgment of what he saw as immoral behavior, he goes as far as calling the man in Corinth "wicked". I see no difference in my own judgment of a "so called brother's" immoral behavior. I judge his behavior and therefore I question his salvation, I am not judging his salvation I am judging his actions which lead me to question his salvation, which is precisely what Paul does. I add a caveat here, judging the actions of others is not something any of us should take lightly, our judgment needs to be righteous and not motivated by our own desires and should be done without bias or hypocrisy. The church is obligated as Paul points out to judge those who are blatantly sinning in ways that could corrupt others in the church. But Judgment isn't done for the purpose of punishment or condemnation, it is done in love for the purpose of reconciliation, to move the guilty toward repentance and if they do not succeed then the guilty party is to be removed from the local body of the church. Sadly I believe the church as a whole has seriously failed in this and has now been corrupted to the point that one can easily find a church that will not only tolerate their sin but promote it as well, without there ever being any attempt to call one to repentance. If we truly love one another we should want to keep each other accountable to God, to not do so in my opinion is not motivated by love but by self interest and a desire to avoid any perceived conflict that might arise as a result. I will now cease and desist on this matter.
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Post by kjs on Jan 26, 2018 10:52:11 GMT -6
rtGranted --This thread is about the judgment of the church But that is general judgment and not to be specific judgement and definitely not to point fingers at real live people, that we only know through gossip about….. The following is an example of what you are doing and in no way reflects my personal opinion and attitude of Amy Grant. Amy Grant is a well-known Christian Artist. Amy Grant married young and had three children with her first Husband. Amy Grant divorced her first husband. Amy Grant remarried to a new man and had a child with this new husband. Jesus said that if a woman remarries someone else while her first husband is alive she is committing adultery. Amy Grant has been living as an adulteress for several years now. Living such a life of Sin shows Amy Grant was never saved. You see I have used nothing but facts. I show without a doubt Amy Grant is living in sin (remarried with a living first husband). The point I am making (and no I have nothing against Amy Grant) Accusing someone of huge SIN -- when you do not possess all the facts -- is plain wrong.... So no -- do not use this "thread" to judge a specific individual !
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Post by thetimeoftheend on Jan 26, 2018 10:57:23 GMT -6
I think we have a tendency to make this quite difficult when it is not:
If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9
There are no caveats - it's straightforward. Yet we forget that we are ALL wretched and need a savior, and that it is Christ perfect and sufficient sacrafic that saves us. Who are we to condemn those who's sin is public, while ours is private?
Scripture tells us what we should do with wayward brothers - as correction. It does not give us the ability to make judgements about their soul. Only God can search the heart.
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Post by fitz on Jan 26, 2018 11:07:03 GMT -6
In First Corinthians 3:15, the apostle Paul wrote about the loss that can be created by fire. He wrote, “If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.”
The believer is saved, but at the Bema seat judgement, per se, their works will be tested by fire. Some will come through that experience "smelling of smoke". As if just barely escaping the fires of hell...yet they will be saved. The only work you can't burn up is trusting in Christ.
[Edit] I should be clear...the Bema seat judgement isn't a judgement, but primarily for the rewards we receive for the treasure we've stored in heaven. Those works that won't burn up. And there is no punishment here at all. It's quite a happy event...receiving crowns from Jesus (I think 5 different crowns) ...only to turn around and cast them at His feet! But, the rest of our "works" that don't stand the test are chaff, that was my point.
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