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Post by socalexile on Sept 13, 2017 19:42:33 GMT -6
Yeah it was in response to the BYU thing...Not defending Mac here but do you think he really believes works are necessary? The way I was initially taught was works accompany your faith. Which I agree with to some degree. We should want to be more like Jesus right? In that desire to be more like Him, yeah we sacrifice a lot, Turn from sin, Live a changed life, Obey God's commandments, Love your brothers, Keep God's Word at the rest of the list...On one hand I had a friend who would run up to people, random people "you know Jesus?, wanna guarantee you go to heaven when you die? Do you believe He died for sins? OK then pray this prayer" He'd quote Romans 10:9-10, pray with them and welcome them to heaven. I'm sure most if not all walked away wondering what happened. Some would pray just so he'd go away. I'm not advocating works as a means of justification, but do you think some preachers/teachers "have to" lead the people in doing the right thing? Seems maybe Mac just says it wrong?? Dunno, just thinking and chatting with you here. Ok, two things. First, the "praying a prayer" argument is something that is often used pejoratively in criticism unfairly. What saves is that we put our trust in Christ to save us, and thus we receive the grace of God because of His promise, and He gives us His Spirit as a guarantee of our future redemption. There is a lot of straw man arguments, as well as a lot of deceptive tactics, made against the grace side of this debate. Second, read the last link I shared. That's straight from the source that lists all sorts of works as necessary results of "genuine faith" (meaning that without these works, there really isn't faith, and thus no salvation). By making these works as necessary results, it 'backloads' the gospel with works, effectively making it a loan on the basis of the promise of future payment in the form of works. Faith becomes irrelevant in salvation, since the works are what really determines salvation; thus as with any other works-based system, 'no works=no salvation'.
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Post by mike on Sept 14, 2017 6:49:03 GMT -6
socalexile I (think I) understand where you're coming from with this. I read (most of) the link you shared. Some thoughts are difficult to express in writing so please dont misinterpret this. I hope i do a decent job of explaining. I'm certainly not lecturing, just trying to thoroughly communicate. I totally agree with you that we cannot earn salvation. It is a gift that cant be worked for. If it could...well never mind, it simply cant. I'm not "going to bat" for anyone here either, just trying to better understand things. Due to my background, and history this is something I struggled with early on in Christianity and it eventually contributed to my "falling away" for 13-14 years! I attended an extremely Charismanaic, Pentecostal church. I worked so hard to be accounted as worthy in the sight of God and of the local church I attended. I did everything I was asked to do and then some. I neglected myself, my home life, family everything to "do the Lords work". I was abused (to some degree). I we ever heard was that we needed to do the "work of the Lord" rarely was the saving grace ever preached about. I think I understand why...once we accept the "free gift" and truly repent, we change our mind, our outlook on things and start to think and act differently, right? Would you agree with that or is it more MacArthur'ism? I see this as a very fine line...If one truly believes that is the Lords judgment to make, not mine. I dont think someone responding to an altar call during a moment of emotion constitutes truly believing in something/someone. That's my opinion, but I think I have some support in the word for this. Again not saying the work you do after is what saves, never! But the "Belief", if genuine will result in actions that match beliefs. We see it all over our "fake news" everyday. Take the protestors out there...they are fully convinced what they do is right, even if they are wrong. Their actions equate to what they are convinced of. Same with terrorists. Anyway as I was "thinking/meditating" the Lords prayer came to mind as I usually try to think about His will and not mine. He instructs us to live that way seeking first His will. So if I believe I will also have a desire to seek His will won't I? Again not saying this equates to salvation, but it is evidence thereof (hate to use the word evidence, but its the best I can do). As I considered this further I came to John 8 (copied below). For context purpose, I pasted the dialogue. In it he is "blasting" the hypocrits who clearly dont believe John 8:21 So he said to them again, “I am going away, and you will seek me, and you will die in your sin. Where I am going, you cannot come.” 22 So the Jews said, “Will he kill himself, since he says, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come’?” 23 He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.” 25 So they said to him, “Who are you?” Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been telling you from the beginning. 26 I have much to say about you and much to judge, but he who sent me is true, and I declare to the world what I have heard from him.” 27 They did not understand that he had been speaking to them about the Father. 28 So Jesus said to them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me. 29 And he who sent me is with me. He has not left me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to him.” 30 As he was saying these things, many believed in him.
31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” 33 They answered him, “We are offspring of Abraham and have never been enslaved to anyone. How is it that you say, ‘You will become free’?”
34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slaveb to sin. 35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37 I know that you are offspring of Abraham; yet you seek to kill me because my word finds no place in you
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Post by socalexile on Sept 14, 2017 8:20:32 GMT -6
socalexile I (think I) understand where you're coming from with this. I read (most of) the link you shared. Some thoughts are difficult to express in writing so please dont misinterpret this. I hope i do a decent job of explaining. I'm certainly not lecturing, just trying to thoroughly communicate. I totally agree with you that we cannot earn salvation. It is a gift that cant be worked for. If it could...well never mind, it simply cant. I'm not "going to bat" for anyone here either, just trying to better understand things. Due to my background, and history this is something I struggled with early on in Christianity and it eventually contributed to my "falling away" for 13-14 years! I attended an extremely Charismanaic, Pentecostal church. I worked so hard to be accounted as worthy in the sight of God and of the local church I attended. I did everything I was asked to do and then some. I neglected myself, my home life, family everything to "do the Lords work". I was abused (to some degree). I we ever heard was that we needed to do the "work of the Lord" rarely was the saving grace ever preached about. I think I understand why...once we accept the "free gift" and truly repent, we change our mind, our outlook on things and start to think and act differently, right? Would you agree with that or is it more MacArthur'ism? I see this as a very fine line...If one truly believes that is the Lords judgment to make, not mine. I dont think someone responding to an altar call during a moment of emotion constitutes truly believing in something/someone. That's my opinion, but I think I have some support in the word for this. Again not saying the work you do after is what saves, never! But the "Belief", if genuine will result in actions that match beliefs. We see it all over our "fake news" everyday. Take the protestors out there...they are fully convinced what they do is right, even if they are wrong. Their actions equate to what they are convinced of. Same with terrorists. Anyway as I was "thinking/meditating" the Lords prayer came to mind as I usually try to think about His will and not mine. He instructs us to live that way seeking first His will. So if I believe I will also have a desire to seek His will won't I? Again not saying this equates to salvation, but it is evidence thereof (hate to use the word evidence, but its the best I can do). As I considered this further I came to John 8 (copied below). For context purpose, I pasted the dialogue. In it he is "blasting" the hypocrits who clearly dont believe John 8:21 So he said to them again, “I am going away, and you will seek me, and you will die in your sin. Where I am going, you cannot come.” 22 So the Jews said, “Will he kill himself, since he says, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come’?” 23 He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.” 25 So they said to him, “Who are you?” Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been telling you from the beginning. 26 I have much to say about you and much to judge, but he who sent me is true, and I declare to the world what I have heard from him.” 27 They did not understand that he had been speaking to them about the Father. 28 So Jesus said to them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me. 29 And he who sent me is with me. He has not left me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to him.” 30 As he was saying these things, many believed in him.
31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” 33 They answered him, “We are offspring of Abraham and have never been enslaved to anyone. How is it that you say, ‘You will become free’?”
34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slaveb to sin. 35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37 I know that you are offspring of Abraham; yet you seek to kill me because my word finds no place in you If works were a necessary result, then how can Paul write this: If faith included works, or faith resulted in works, then verse 5 could not be true, because it illustrates clearly that even those that do no works, and only have faith, are saved. As for John 8:34; it, like in 1 John 3:4-10, doesn't say "practice" in the Greek, which is the word prasso - it says "do" which is the word poieo. The KJV is correct when it renders John 8:34 and 1 John 3:4-10 with the word "commit" or "commiteth". There's an additional issue where Paul admits that he practices (prasso) evil in Romans 7:19. So by the interpretation of many scholars and translators, Paul wasn't saved. Unless there's something they miss and even reject. And that's the concept of the two natures, which this man explains so clearly here: So Jesus was talking about those who are born of Adam, and not of God. Our flesh is born of Adam, and commits sin. Our Spirit born of faith, given to us by grace, cannot sin. We retain both until that which was born of Adam dies, and that which is born of God goes to be with God. See Romans 7:14-8:1, Galatians 5:16-26 and 1 Corinthians 15:35-55.
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Post by mike on Sept 14, 2017 8:56:14 GMT -6
I see socalexile...I really think struggle is with folks who say one thing and do another. its so contradictory to me. For example a good friend and his wife, he says "yeah I believe in Jesus" but does he really? Not my call but when I visit them, it would seem they dont. Why? In his house he statues of budda, little figures of stuff throughout the place (cant remember which ones). a large area rug (hung on the wall) with Ganesh on it (which also happens to have swastikas on the corners). He believes in aliens although I havent had the chance to discuss that with him yet (nephilim). His wife is "catholic" with the malocchia on her neck. She burns incense to keep the spirits away and so on... I realize they clearly arent disciples, but how can i say they believe? looking at the evidence I'd say they dont. Again that's between them and HIM but...
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Post by socalexile on Sept 14, 2017 9:43:40 GMT -6
I see socalexile ...I really think struggle is with folks who say one thing and do another. its so contradictory to me. For example a good friend and his wife, he says "yeah I believe in Jesus" but does he really? Not my call but when I visit them, it would seem they dont. Why? In his house he statues of budda, little figures of stuff throughout the place (cant remember which ones). a large area rug (hung on the wall) with Ganesh on it (which also happens to have swastikas on the corners). He believes in aliens although I havent had the chance to discuss that with him yet (nephilim). His wife is "catholic" with the malocchia on her neck. She burns incense to keep the spirits away and so on... I realize they clearly arent disciples, but how can i say they believe? looking at the evidence I'd say they dont. Again that's between them and HIM but... First, none of us follow the law. We all have things that distract us from God, and as Romans 14:23 says, "anything not of faith is sin". So it's utterly impossible to be perfect apart from the imputed perfection attained by faith in Christ. Second, have you asked him how he thinks he is saved? It really tells you what his faith is really in. Remember the Pharisees did all sorts of good works and following the law, but their faith wasn't in the Savior, it was in themselves (see Luke 18:9-14), so even the hardcore, church-going, law-abiding, congregant can still go to hell if his faith is in his works and not in Christ alone. BTW, I have a small Buddha in my house, because it was my mother-in-law's, who didn't have it for religious reasons - my wife is still recovering from her loss, and it's not an idol like how real Buddhists think of it. Also, it isn't a Nazi swastika on that rug, it means something else entirely. I mean heck, some people worship their cars (Ferris Bueller anyone?). No one totally practices righteousness, even Paul (Romans 7:19) and John (1 John 1:8-10) while in this flesh. So we can't really look down on another without it being a matter of pride and blindness (Luke 7:36-50). We can only give them the Gospel and encourage them to be a disciple (but not for eternal life).
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2017 10:22:24 GMT -6
So....as you know this is a very old debate - works vs faith. Which causes the other? I think many christians will agree that faith is a gift not of works. But as soon as they say that, they immediately, in their subconscious begin to compute the reasons why they deserve/demonstrate their faith more than someone else. Typically, these reasons are based on observable works.
I have a very different view than the typical christian view so I need to be a bit careful. But I think the dispute comes down to confusion over what salvation is. For most, we think salvation is "getting to heaven when I die." I think salvation is much more complex than that and that the scripture uses the word "saved" to mean various things. As I like to say, We have been saved, we are being saved, we will be saved.
So from the perspective of having our debts paid and technically free from the grip of death and hell - that is completely based on the work of Christ as the Jubilee and redeemer. It is a two part work and he has completed the first part with his first coming. With his second coming he will complete the second work. In these works, done from the beginning of time, we are saved. It is our passover experience.
As far as our walk in this life and being saved from the effect of sin and destruction in our walk - that is based on our submission to the holy spirit at each step we take, constantly submitting ourselves to his "fiery law" - that is his character. In this manner, we come into harmony and agreement with Christ and his law is written on our hearts. This is our pentecost experience and it lasts our entire life.
Eventually, we will experience our tabernacles experience when we shed our temporary booths and put on the eternal body. This is a future event.
So when we discuss salvation, works, and faith, we need to also determine what salvation we are talking about. But without a doubt, none of these salvations would be possible without the finished work of Christ. And even when we think we are "submitting" to him during our pentecost experience, it is actually Him, working through us as the author and finisher of our faith.
Our job is to simply rest in the pure truth of his character. Knowing that He Is, and He Is, who He says He Is. This is the entire gospel message. Be at peace with God - for he is at peace with you. Rest from your labor. Rest in him.
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Post by kjs on Sept 14, 2017 13:34:29 GMT -6
Well said silentknight!
It all comes down to what Jesus DID (what He accomplished by hanging on the cross).
He who was sinless, became sin and did away with it.
He grants (gifts) life to all who simply believe He was the sinless son of God - who became SIN and bore it before God the father.
The GIFT cannot be earned -- it can only be received.
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Post by watchmanjim on Sept 15, 2017 8:54:09 GMT -6
All good points. I just find it so sad that so many churches hide or distort this truth to where it keeps people from knowing how to be saved, or to know if they are saved.
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Post by socalexile on Sept 15, 2017 12:56:30 GMT -6
This is a pretty good (and passionate) rebuttal of this distortion:
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Post by mike on Sept 15, 2017 13:14:39 GMT -6
thanks for sharing socalexile - for many years I was bludgeoned with WORK WORK WORK WORK and the combining of salvation and living a Godly life. They were taught together, intertwined, hand in hand. Video makes it simple...she sounds a little frustrated (LOL) I have been reminding myself of this poor doctrine (maybe not the right way to put it but it is poor nonetheless). Separate the earthly living from eternal salvation. Thanks again brother
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Post by kjs on Sept 15, 2017 14:16:02 GMT -6
This is a pretty good (and passionate) rebuttal of this distortion: Ok, will admit -- it took me a few minutes to get beyond the hair ..... But this sister in Jesus Christ -- is spot on in her delivery of the gospel message! It is all about Jesus DID -- and nothing what-so-ever that we did, do, or will do! By the end, was wanting to give her a BIG HUG -- and then send her to talk some sense to a few people I know........ LOVED IT!
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Post by socalexile on Sept 15, 2017 23:17:00 GMT -6
she sounds a little frustrated (LOL) She has a ton of videos responding to a ton of people telling her she's a heretic and a false teacher.
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Post by socalexile on Sept 16, 2017 3:08:25 GMT -6
So IMO, the mixing of grace and works could strongly factor into the end times, especially concerning the references to Babylon. Remember, the first mention of Babel, which became Babylon, is in Genesis 11:
So essentially, they tried to reach heaven by their own labor.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Sept 16, 2017 8:56:32 GMT -6
Thanks socalexile (dan, right? ) and mike , whom I feel am right along side you, brother, as we "clean up" our Gospel message in our mind and heart. I posted this gal's video to my FB page, Barbara Jean Gunness, www.facebook.com/barbara.gunness if anyone wants to like it and share to other friends because, her hair and makeup alone will take the Works out of Faith for sure...LOLOLOL But her delivery of the Gospel message and Q & A, is refreshing. I have a 24 yo niece who is worried about making it to heaven..Bless her heart! I am going to share this video on her Page... socalexile and @silentknight ... I have not been good at sharing the Gospel but I know why now! Because I would likely have distorted the message with some form of work. Kinda like those pyramid schemes. Ya know, there's this great product, AND you can get it, but there are these things to do, like pay a bunch of money, go out and get other buyers... It becomes a complicated thing with empty promises of wealth... I know I can share the Gospel correctly, with confidence! God sent his son for us because we are sinners (thru Adam if needed to be said). By Christ's (God-Man) death on the cross, buriel and resurrection (His whole body!) We now have a way to heaven, a renewed relationship with God. We are still sinners, but accepting the Gift of God's Son are we able to be saved (have salvation). In anything we do in life we know that even in mistakes and sinning, our Faith in Him saves us and will save us. The question to ask a person who we THINK does not have the appearance of being saved is to ask: How's your faith walk going? As the gal stated, when we struggle and sin on purpose, we suffer the temporal things of this world. Like a child being disciplined by his parent. Perhaps that is when you come along side that person and say, Let's pray. Let's ask the Lord to help us through this struggle...struggling is not that your salvation is at risk, it is that the Lord is preferring you set your eyes on Him and not the World as the world is of darkness and evil, Jesus is Light & Truth & Good. Maybe some people are so used to struggling they don't know they can ask for help. Still does not mean they are not saved if they have received God's Gift by their faith in Jesus. Maranatha!
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Post by socalexile on Sept 16, 2017 9:17:36 GMT -6
Thanks socalexile (dan, right? ) and mike , whom I feel am right along side you, brother, as we "clean up" our Gospel message in our mind and heart. I posted this gal's video to my FB page, Barbara Jean Gunness, www.facebook.com/barbara.gunness if anyone wants to like it and share to other friends because, her hair and makeup alone will take the Works out of Faith for sure...LOLOLOL But her delivery of the Gospel message and Q & A, is refreshing. I have a 24 yo niece who is worried about making it to heaven..Bless her heart! I am going to share this video on her Page... socalexile and @silentknight ... I have not been good at sharing the Gospel but I know why now! Because I would likely have distorted the message with some form of work. Kinda like those pyramid schemes. Ya know, there's this great product, AND you can get it, but there are these things to do, like pay a bunch of money, go out and get other buyers... It becomes a complicated thing with empty promises of wealth... I know I can share the Gospel correctly, with confidence! God sent his son for us because we are sinners (thru Adam if needed to be said). By Christ's (God-Man) death on the cross, buriel and resurrection (His whole body!) We now have a way to heaven, a renewed relationship with God. We are still sinners, but accepting the Gift of God's Son are we able to be saved (have salvation). In anything we do in life we know that even in mistakes and sinning, our Faith in Him saves us and will save us. The question to ask a person who we THINK does not have the appearance of being saved is to ask: How's your faith walk going? As the gal stated, when we struggle and sin on purpose, we suffer the temporal things of this world. Like a child being disciplined by his parent. Perhaps that is when you come along side that person and say, Let's pray. Let's ask the Lord to help us through this struggle...struggling is not that your salvation is at risk, it is that the Lord is preferring you set your eyes on Him and not the World as the world is of darkness and evil, Jesus is Light & Truth & Good. Maybe some people are so used to struggling they don't know they can ask for help. Still does not mean they are not saved if they have received God's Gift by their faith in Jesus. Maranatha! You're about to get a friend request.
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