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Post by Gary on Sept 16, 2017 18:42:14 GMT -6
This is a really good discussion. I think Romans 4:5 is such an important foundation in sorting through the faith vs. works debate as it leaves no ambiguity in Paul's message.
So true faith = Holy Spirit comes in and you receive the free, irrevocable gift = you will be saved.
That all said, holy living should be normative in the life of Believers (not for salvation). There are also many who *say* they have faith and don't. Generally speaking, a Holy Spirit-indwelt person will be doing some good things, but again, works are a normal effect, not cause of salvation.
Just my 2 cents.
Blessings friends!
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Post by socalexile on Sept 16, 2017 23:12:40 GMT -6
This is a really good discussion. I think Romans 4:5 is such an important foundation in sorting through the faith vs. works debate as it leaves no ambiguity in Paul's message. So true faith = Holy Spirit comes in and you receive the free, irrevocable gift = you will be saved. That all said, holy living should be normative in the life of Believers (not for salvation). There are also many who *say* they have faith and don't. Generally speaking, a Holy Spirit-indwelt person will be doing some good things, but again, works are a normal effect, not cause of salvation. Just my 2 cents. Blessings friends! One of the things people "insert" into scripture, and this is NOT a criticism of you Gary, is the idea of "genuine/saving/true" faith, when in the Bible there is only "faith". What the Bible emphasizes isn't some special kind of faith that the saved have that the unsaved world doesn't, like TULIP implies. After all, is the person who tries to meet John MacArthur's "distinctives" , i.e. works, really showing any greater kind of faith than the Muslim who blows himself up in jihad, believing that doing so gains him paradise? What of the Buddhist monks who light themselves on fire for a political cause, thinking they'll be reincarnated? That takes A LOT of faith to bet your life on your beliefs like that. The core question of the Bible isn't what one does that shows they have the super-faith that the reprobate don't; it's the question of "what is your faith in?". One of my favorite parables to bring up in this debate that shows this plainly is Luke 18:9-14: To me, this Pharisee sounds like many in the church, who think they're a special chosen class of genuine Christians. He did works of faith, he tried to follow the law...he even gave credit to God; but, ultimately, his faith was in himself and his own righteousness. He looked down on other sinners with greater sins than himself. Yet, in the modern church, this man would be looked upon as a great man of God who had "genuine faith", and the Tax Collector would be looked down upon as simply looking for "cheap grace" or "easy believeism". Yet Jesus portrayed this as just the opposite - because it's about what our faith is in. (BTW, to anyone reading, don't ever call it "cheap grace" - God came down in human flesh, was rejected, tortured, and hung on a cross; paying the highest price for our redemption, just so he can give that redemption away for free. I do not want to be the man held accountable at the Judgement for calling it cheap, as if it was worth less than their works). And this gets into something else that I think the Lord is showing in scripture - that of what "lukewarm" really is referring to in Revelation 3:16. Aside from the passage in Luke above, there is another humble, yet VERY profound passage in Luke 7, which I find many pastors ignore: Now what her sins were isn't important (many, including me, have speculated), and I think Luke is being gracious in not telling us, because she is forgiven. Needless to say, Simon the Pharisee either knew of her sin or recognized what kind of sin she may have displayed. What I find profound here in relation to Revelation 3 and Luke 18, is the part emphasized in v.47; when examined in the context of these verses: Galatians 3: Galatians 5: James 2: Romans 3: John 7: The core problem is that no one has kept the Law, and in not keeping the Law, WE ARE ALL GUILTY OF IT ALL. Meaning, that whether the woman in Luke 7 was a prostitute, a lesbian, a sorceress, a drug-user, a murderer, or whatever. WE are ALL bearing the same guilt, as NONE of us has met the standard, that is, righteous perfection of God. We are all homosexuals, fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, abusers of themselves with mankind,thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, extortioners etc., and all those things that people say you have to stop doing in order to be forgiven of doing them in the first place (when they themselves are just as guilty). Ergo, the core problem with Simon the Pharisee (and modern Pharisees), in light of verse 47, wasn't that he was any less a sinner than the woman, but that he was blind to his own sin. I say again, THE CORE PROBLEM WITH SIMON THE PHARISEE WASN'T THAT HE WASN'T ANY LESS A SINNER THAN THE WOMAN, BUT THAT HE WAS BLIND TO HIS OWN SIN. Thus we have Laodicea, who was "lukewarm" (I wonder the actual etymology of that word) in that they thought their riches (products of their works) were evidence of their lack of need from God. In essence, their problem was that they were self-righteous, as blind to their own sin as Simon was. That's why Jesus tells them to go buy salve for their eyes. And that's why the men who tried to convince Jesus on the basis of their works in Matthew 7:21-23 were "workers of lawlessness", because they weren't wearing the only righteousness that ever met the Law: Christ's, which is attained by faith in Him; their faith was really in themselves and their works. Just something I have been given, that I want to shout from the rooftops. (One more thing, I don't think the woman's tears in Luke 7 were "tears of repentance" ie. "turning from sin" in the modern vernacular...I think they were tears of joy. She gave him a gift of very expensive perfume as evidenced by the alabaster flask. Perhaps it was a gift, or type of gift, given to her by a lover, that she gave as a token of her love, because she put her faith in Christ as the Messiah who WILL redeem her).
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Post by mike on Sept 17, 2017 6:22:39 GMT -6
Good stuff SoCal, thank you for helping me brother.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2017 7:28:27 GMT -6
socalexile - I really loved that last bit. Spot on and very good to hear. Might I ask, is there something in your own life that has caused this truth to be so real to you? You may not wish to share but if so you do, it may help the body. Also, if you'd rather PM me about it, I'd love to hear your testimony on why this has become such a ministry of yours. Perhaps I'm just reading into things.
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Post by socalexile on Sept 17, 2017 10:41:08 GMT -6
socalexile - I really loved that last bit. Spot on and very good to hear. Might I ask, is there something in your own life that has caused this truth to be so real to you? You may not wish to share but if so you do, it may help the body. Also, if you'd rather PM me about it, I'd love to hear your testimony on why this has become such a ministry of yours. Perhaps I'm just reading into things. Had something to do with my own inability while attending Multinomah Bible College many years ago. I actually read verses like Matthew 5 and realized it was impossible. I went on a 20 year hiatus from the church, figuring that I would (hopefully) repent before I died. Then circumstances brought be back about 3 years ago. Then I got a whirlwind "tour" of how the church has changed and how crazy it all has become. Then one day after asking God who was right, I ran into Ralph Yankee Arnold on YouTube and it all made sense. I cannot find fault in the logic he presents (other than on the sign gifts).
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Post by watchmanjim on Sept 17, 2017 21:25:44 GMT -6
I believe my uncle went to Multnomah Bible College too.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Sept 17, 2017 22:01:39 GMT -6
socalexile, again, this Saved by Grace clarity sure makes it easier to witness to a homosexual. I had no explanation to a gay person on the verses that list who won't inherit the kingdom...because I was miss-understanding the Message...the Good News, as they say... I have been told by a gay person, "I can't be a Christian because it says what it says about homosexuality." But we are all sinners through Adam I can say boldly. To me the thing that a non believer has to change their mind to, is that man (himself/herself) is a sinner. period. That's a better starting point to a conversation with someone who doesn't see the need for Jesus or is afraid to follow because of condemnation or thinks they have to quit their sins to follow Jesus...or think that they are good-hearted, forgetting they still are a sinner... Praise the Lord, my husband just told me that he understands that "we are ALL sinners" He is getting it!! got just a few days left maybe, so this is major breakthrough for him...
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Post by socalexile on Sept 17, 2017 22:07:28 GMT -6
I believe my uncle went to Multnomah Bible College too. So did Bettie Page. When I was there it was a meat market. Lots of hypocrisy.
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Post by socalexile on Sept 18, 2017 0:58:38 GMT -6
JD Farag brought up the article in the OP today, and man does he lay it out (starts at about 26:58 in):
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Post by socalexile on Sept 18, 2017 1:26:25 GMT -6
socalexile , again, this Saved by Grace clarity sure makes it easier to witness to a homosexual. I had no explanation to a gay person on the verses that list who won't inherit the kingdom...because I was miss-understanding the Message...the Good News, as they say... I have been told by a gay person, "I can't be a Christian because it says what it says about homosexuality." But we are all sinners through Adam I can say boldly. To me the thing that a non believer has to change their mind to, is that man (himself/herself) is a sinner. period. That's a better starting point to a conversation with someone who doesn't see the need for Jesus or is afraid to follow because of condemnation or thinks they have to quit their sins to follow Jesus...or think that they are good-hearted, forgetting they still are a sinner... Praise the Lord, my husband just told me that he understands that "we are ALL sinners" He is getting it!! got just a few days left maybe, so this is major breakthrough for him... This video will start a little bit in. Watch it to at least 16:28. In my walk, this one convicted me of how little I understood the depths of God's grace:
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Post by mike on Sept 19, 2017 8:43:45 GMT -6
Hey socalexile I've been meaning to circle back for a couple days to highlight something. After the light bulb went on for me I decided to read Galatians, a letter i hadnt read in many years. Well the light got a bit brighter reading that. Even Peter was in error by thinking circumcision meant something in justification, and needed correction by Paul. Amazing to me...Pray for Johnny Mac and the others to stop teaching works. Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
EDIT - Just re-read a post above where you show Gal 3 & 5. Not that you didnt know or werent aware of Galatians already, just wanted to share...and thank you again
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Post by socalexile on Sept 19, 2017 9:13:58 GMT -6
Hey socalexile I've been meaning to circle back for a couple days to highlight something. After the light bulb went on for me I decided to read Galatians, a letter i hadnt read in many years. Well the light got a bit brighter reading that. Even Peter was in error by thinking circumcision meant something in justification, and needed correction by Paul. Amazing to me...Pray for Johnny Mac and the others to stop teaching works. Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
EDIT - Just re-read a post above where you show Gal 3 & 5. Not that you didnt know or werent aware of Galatians already, just wanted to share...and thank you again Thanks! Speaking of Galatians:
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Post by mike on Sept 19, 2017 11:17:44 GMT -6
she really does make it simple for people like me! I love her, she talks to people the way I do
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Post by lookingup on Sept 19, 2017 13:13:48 GMT -6
It really is that simple, which is why it confounds both believers and non-believers alike! Just a passer by, but I wanted to add some encouragement for anyone struggling in this area, as I certainly have wrestled with it at times. Keep in mind that Galatians - one of, if not the oldest written texts in the NT - was addressed to believers. Let that sink in Personally, I like to replace the phrase 'works' with 'heart trajectory' to help avoid the immediate shut down of critical, biblical thought (at least for my own brain). First comes saving grace by faith alone. Then comes a heart of flesh leading to the change in heart trajectory. Not only is this then used for our sanctification and His purposes and glory, it also help confirms our belief we belong to Him and are on unchangeable track to eventually be made like his Son (Romans 8:28-30). I pray that no one allows the enemy to rob you of your confidence - and with it, Joy - as we see only a glimpse of just how abundant His grace truly is. Best in Christ to all!
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