Post by yardstick on Nov 21, 2017 12:16:04 GMT -6
King James, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, "For the Lord himself shall descent from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
The Lord himself (Lord Jesus) shall descend from heaven with a shout (what is this shout), with the voice of the archangel (Michael, Dan. 12:1), and with the trump of God (who is this?): and the dead in Christ (those who have salvation) rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (the rapture) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
I am not debating the foundational truth that Lord Jesus raptures his church; that point is quite clear. I am saying there is an order of events, and these verses that you have referenced supports my case. As you can see, he uses the archangel, and in my opinion "The Trump of God." So who is this trump of God?
Like I said, it is a hard thing to hear because it is not taught in any Christian church to the best of my knowledge. If it had been taught then we could say that such and such denomination teaches this. However, to the best of my knowledge, no one teaches this. Does that make it wrong? No.
It took me quite some time to come to this realization, that Lord Jesus has someone that leads the rapture. That is to say, I believe in a three staged rapture. First is the rapture to the exodus (the shout mentioned above), secondly is the gathering of the saints to one location upon the earth, and third is that Lord Jesus comes and takes all his people off the earth. Conjoined with the rapture is the resurrection of the dead that begins in my opinion, with the two prophets killed in Jerusalem (Rev. 11:11).
With regard to the 144,000, they get sealed (Rev. 7:4), and then they do what? They stand with Christ (Rev. 14:1). We know that they are men because they were not defiled of women (Rev. 14:4). That is to say, they did not venture outside the marriage covenant with prostitutes and the like. They follow Lord Jesus (Rev 14:4). They were redeemed from among men (Rev. 14:4). Now that is interesting. They were among men, and they were redeemed. Is not that the rapture? I mean, how did the Lord redeem them? To redeem is to take back; to repurchase, or otherwise to have something and let it go, and then get it back again. This is the Davidic Covenant at it most basic presentation.
How did the Lord do it? He had someone assigned for that purpose, and that is who I am talking about. The someone that is hidden in scripture as stated in Isaiah 49:1-3, " Listen O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from afar; The Lord hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name, and he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft (a weapon), in his quiver hath he hid me; and said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified."
Additionally, you said "Revelation chapter 19 is clear on two points, Jesus' army comes with him from heaven and it is Jesus who, and Jesus alone who destroys the beast." To this I am saying, in my opinion, that the army that comes with Lord Jesus is the 144,000 that were enraptured in the first of three raptures.
Also, Rev. 19:19 shows that he uses an army and they fill themselves with the flesh of their enemies (Rev. 19:21). That is to say, the metaphor "fowls" in Chapter 19 is the army of God.
I do understand that you believe I am twisting scripture from its unambigious and clear statements about the rapture. However, to what end would I do this? To lead people astray. To where? Please know that my entire life revolves around Lord Jesus. I am his devoted servant. I would prefer to be cast in hell than lead anyone astray. Let God judge me now if that is not the case. No, on the contrary, I am trying to show the coming events; that we have an opportunity to not only go on the rapture, but to be an instrument in the Saviors hand in ushering in his millennial reign.
Here is the original greek information for the word 'trump' or 'trumpet':
σάλπιγγι - salpingi (Strong's 4536) a trumpet - from root salpizó
biblehub.com/greek/4536.htm
salpigx: a trumpet
Original Word: σάλπιγξ, ιγγος, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: salpigx
Phonetic Spelling: (sal'-pinx)
Short Definition: a trumpet
Definition: a trumpet, the sound of a trumpet.
Original Word: σάλπιγξ, ιγγος, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: salpigx
Phonetic Spelling: (sal'-pinx)
Short Definition: a trumpet
Definition: a trumpet, the sound of a trumpet.
HELPS Word-studies
4536 sálpigks – "properly, a war-trumpet" (WS, 797) that boldly announces God's victory (the vanquishing of His enemies).
In the OT, trumpets were used to called God's people to war, and to announce victory wrought by Him. That is, a military clarion that proclaimed the Lord inspired and empowered the victory on behalf of His people.
["The trumpet was the signal employed to call the hosts of Israel to march as to war, and is common in prophetic imagery (Is 27:13). Cf. The seventh angel (Rev 11:15)" (WP, 1, 193).
Trumpets in the OT summoned God's saints for His righteous wars (Nu 10:9; Jer 4:19; Joel 2:1). See also Lev 23:24,25; Nu 10:2-10; Ps 81:3.]
4536 sálpigks – "properly, a war-trumpet" (WS, 797) that boldly announces God's victory (the vanquishing of His enemies).
In the OT, trumpets were used to called God's people to war, and to announce victory wrought by Him. That is, a military clarion that proclaimed the Lord inspired and empowered the victory on behalf of His people.
["The trumpet was the signal employed to call the hosts of Israel to march as to war, and is common in prophetic imagery (Is 27:13). Cf. The seventh angel (Rev 11:15)" (WP, 1, 193).
Trumpets in the OT summoned God's saints for His righteous wars (Nu 10:9; Jer 4:19; Joel 2:1). See also Lev 23:24,25; Nu 10:2-10; Ps 81:3.]
biblehub.com/greek/4537.htm
salpizó: to sound a trumpet
Original Word: σαλπίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: salpizó
Phonetic Spelling: (sal-pid'-zo)
Short Definition: I sound a trumpet
Definition: I sound a trumpet.
Original Word: σαλπίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: salpizó
Phonetic Spelling: (sal-pid'-zo)
Short Definition: I sound a trumpet
Definition: I sound a trumpet.
These definitions clearly indicate a trumpet is an instrument to be sounded. Not an individual.
Thayer's Greek lexicon and Strong's exhaustive concordance both indicate that a trumpet is an instrument that makes a reverberating sound.
Upon what authority do you base your definition that a trumpet is an angel?
As to what the shout is, the next clause says what it is: it's the voice of the archangel. Probably Gabriel, since he is usually the one tasked with communication.
Regarding the 144,000: Revelation 14:4 does make clear that the 144,000 do follow the Lord wherever he goes. Verse 3 indicates they have a special role, because they can sing a song that only they can learn.
Regarding Revelation 19:17, indicating the birds in the air - which are the birds you are referring to as metaphors for followers of Christ in his return in verse 21 - in the greek:
ὀρνέοις orneois (Strong's 3732) a bird from root ornis. The root word shown here is where we get our word "ornithology" which is the study of birds. Looking at the details:
orneon: a bird
Original Word: ὄρνεον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: orneon
Phonetic Spelling: (or'-neh-on)
Short Definition: a bird
Definition: a bird, fowl.
Original Word: ὄρνεον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: orneon
Phonetic Spelling: (or'-neh-on)
Short Definition: a bird
Definition: a bird, fowl.
Are you familiar with "The Golden Rule of [Scriptural] Interpretation?
www.bibletruths.org/the-golden-rule-of-interpretation/
“When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.” – Dr. David L. Cooper, founder of The Biblical Research Society
Have you considered that the only person who holds the perspectives you are expressing, is you? And that if those perspectives are not incorrect, then are you aware that you are also stating that you are the only person who is correct in all of history in their hermeneutics?
