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Post by venge on Aug 23, 2020 21:11:58 GMT -6
I guess I am not understanding how (or maybe why) this is being spiritualized and applied to believers? He's called the "man" of lawlessness, "son" of perdition, and lawless "one". He comes by the activity of Satan "with all wicked deception for those who are perishing" (2 Thes 2:10) He's going to totally captivate unbelievers. And he's killed by Jesus when He comes. It's not called the spirit of lawlessness but a man -- although that spirit is at work, and we see it without a doubt in our world today. But who is it at work in? Not true believers. Sure seems like the literal interpretation is all that's needed to understand the passage otherwise the understanding seems to be getting missed.
If it's a literal man of lawlessness then it's a literal temple he is going to sit in. Not the temple of Allah or the temple of Buddha but the temple of God. The true God. It doesn't matter if God sanctions that temple or not, Satan wants the worship that belongs to God. The temple will be dedicated to God and so the center of worship by the Jews (God's people). It doesn't matter what we think of it. Satan is out to destroy them. What better way than to usurp God's place on earth and turn their worship from God to himself.
Um, it does matter! If God doesn’t sanction the temple, which he won’t do, then it’s not God’s temple. It’s a building made with hands that is unholy and rejected. Christ said his body is the temple period. And we are part of that temple because we are apart of him. You can try to justify a physical temple all day long but there is no verse that Christ says will be a third temple except his body. A literal temple verse doesn’t exist and was never taught. People can try to spin sitting in a temple all day long. But a fact remains that Christ and Paul both taught he was the temple. He still is the temple and he is the ark. |
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Post by mike on Aug 24, 2020 4:54:17 GMT -6
Yet venge Ive not heard nor found an explanation to my question, which is why I ask. Do you have a biblical explanation? So the man of lawlessness will sit/stand in Jesus? How do you figure? I am really curious and not even challenging you, just cant seem to reconcile this view as its contradictory to what I read in scripture. 1Cor 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile (phtheiró) the temple of God, him shall God destroy (phtheiró); for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. Here the word for defile is corrupt, destroy, spoil - This seems to be an ongoing individual thing, not an abomination that makes desolate observable to all. If you defile yourself, God will destroy you1Cor 6:19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;
Here in context Paul is admonishing carnal believers to not be joined to harlots! This is not a referral to an abomination making desolate. It is an individual admonishment 2Cor 6;16 What agreement can exist between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be My people.”
Instructional to the group to not be unequally yoked with unbelievers - further affirming my question. If the believer is the temple of the Holy Spirit, and the temple is where AoD takes place then it is the body of Christ who collectively, at the same exact time commit the AoD. Do you see my point? Rev 3:11 I am coming soon. Hold fast to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12 The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will never again leave it. Upon him I will write the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God (the new Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven from My God), and My new name.
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Post by venge on Aug 24, 2020 8:20:59 GMT -6
mike , You said: Yet venge Ive not heard nor found an explanation to my question, which is why I ask. Do you have a biblical explanation?
He is the temple: He does not live in a NEW temple called God's 3rd temple. That is only a few verses from scripture that show he as the head of the body and the chief cornerstone..is the temple and we are with him and he with us. And all of this makes up a temple not built with hands. That is where he resides. Christ declared that he replaces the temple built with hands with himself and in Matthew 23:38 and Matthew 24:2 , Christ says he will destroy the temple made with hands...because he replaces it as a more perfect temple; even the veil was torn of that unholy temple. Christ is the ark. With the temple open, the place where the holy of holies was...only the High Priest could enter once a year. Christ is OUR high priest and our King. And insomuch that it is open for all to see, the ark is also seen. Not just by the High Priest, but by everyone because the veil is lifted. And the ark houses the mercy seat where God was told to rest between the 2 Cherubim. Christ as the son of God is shown to be that power and authority who is that ark to all who search for it (Hebrews 6:19). Christ is not just the chief cornerstone, he is in the center of the temple, the Holy of Holies. With the temple being of living stones forming a building that will never be destroyed and Christ as the ark with the tablets of the Law, the mercy seat, the hidden manna...what a beautiful picture it is. mike , I think you answered your own question. 1st Part: Correct. Will God destroy a man who sits in a literal temple that God does not reside in nor is it Holy? Not by that verse. 2nd part: Yes I do.  Question: Is the literal temple the place where the AoD takes place if that temple is not Holy? Edit: A translation of the word Holy from that verse: Now, with reference to be different from the world and like unto the Lord. Does Christ call us to be different from the world and like unto the Lord? Holy and acceptable? A living sacrifice? Or does Christ, Paul or someone else talk about a special literal building that will be set apart from the world like unto God so that it is Holy? Just curious.... On a separate note, I worry why people get excited that may want to see a literal Third temple built. Why would any believer rejoice and want to see that? It is offensive like a menstrual cloth. (Isa 30:22) There is nothing Holy about it. On the contrary, rejoicing and getting excited over it is what the Jews do and are we to be like them? That could hurt your testimony to others. It can cause confusion to non believers. Now some may say, I rejoice that it is built because my Savior will return. Then rejoice at that; our coming Savior. Not red heifers, not golden silverware, not preparation. Our minds should be on Christ alone. Not focused on rituals pertaining to other religions - which can cause one to stumble. Perhaps none of you, but others it is possible!
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Post by mike on Aug 24, 2020 8:59:13 GMT -6
Still doesnt really address the question Im asking but thanks for trying. I thought my question was simple, maybe not. Is the question Im asking getting across to others?
Dan 11:31 His forces will rise up and desecrate the temple fortress. They will abolish the daily sacrifice and set up the abomination of desolation. 32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
Is the passage in Daniel not pertaining to the end times? These two verses directly cause contradiction to believers being able to commit the abomination. How can a person commit this and do great exploits for God?
Mark 13:4 So when you see the abomination of desolation standing where it should not be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
How can anyone see a believer, who is the temple of God commit the abomination that makes desolate AND flee to the mountains after seeing something in the heart of all(?) believers?
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Post by disciple4life on Aug 24, 2020 9:49:13 GMT -6
Venge,
A few things
You said,
"Christ declared that he replaces the temple built with hands with himself and in Matthew 23:38 and Matthew 24:2 , Christ says he will destroy the temple made with hands...because he replaces it as a more perfect temple; even the veil was torn of that unholy temple."
Christ never said anywhere that he destroys the temple. It was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD. Not Christ. Here's the verse.
Matthew 24:2 NASB
And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."
2nd.
You said "even the veil was torn of that unholy temple."
This too is not correct. Christ himself said explicitly that that temple is his Father's house and where Jesus himself taught. Christ would not be teaching in an unholy Temple.
John 2:16 NASB
and to those who were selling the doves He said, "Take these things away; stop making My Father's house a place of business."
He also said it was a house of prayer for the nations and that the money changes made it a den of theives. They set up their money exchange in the court of the Gentiles.
You also didn't answer Natalie's question nor Mike's nor mine.
How can the AOD take place in us- Christians or worse, in Jesus? It can't.
We have a literal man standing in the holy place committing a visible abomination.
None of this is possible in a symbolic temple.
None of the verses you mention even hint that the 3rd temole is not real, literal.
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Post by Natalie on Aug 24, 2020 11:02:03 GMT -6
I will repeat my main question so it's easier to see...
I guess I am not understanding how (or maybe why) this is being spiritualized and applied to believers? He's called the "man" of lawlessness, "son" of perdition, and lawless "one". He comes by the activity of Satan "with all wicked deception for those who are perishing" (2 Thes 2:10)
2 Thes 2:9-10
The coming of the lawless one is by the activity and working of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
Even if it is not a literal man, it's not in the heart of the believers.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Aug 24, 2020 14:16:45 GMT -6
because these passages, all of them about the fleeing to Judea are about the 2nd temple destruction. Yes, it was the romans that destroyed it but we all know that all things must sift the fingers of our Father first. This desolation and dispersement in 70 AD was allowed by God.
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IF you want to know why I can see 2Thes talking about the heart of man it is because of this:
let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. 3And this we will do, if God permits. 4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
Parable of the wheat and tares comes to mind also. We have no idea what lies in the heart of each person. We simply don't. Not until we can SPIRITUALLY perceive it. Our gathering together will not happen until the tares are bound up, of which this reveals the "lawless one" And is he slayed with bad breath? No, he is destroyed with the sword of Truth. Truth about who Jesus is, why He is doing what He is doing (establishing His Kingdom) how, by the great Revealing/2nd Coming. He binds up Satan for the 1000 years. The lawless one is the one following the lie, even a lie dressed in sheep's clothing. When Eve ate of the apple her temple was corrupted. I do not know how else to explain this.
The falling away can certainly be a crescendo or a cascade of events that affect the faith of many (not all, but many) and I could see it en masse...for there will be dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, 26men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world.
In His own words He says 34“Be on guard, so that your hearts will not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day will not come on you suddenly like a trap; 35for it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth. 36“But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
side note: notice what is spoekn here in Hebrews:
vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled,
I equate the tilling to be the essence of tribulation and affliction. It clears the weeds so to speak, that grow amongst the heart of oneself. Each one of these hearts has to be refined/tilled around that seed that HE planted, not you, so that the Good Plant can yield its fruit. 2Thes is another way of describing those that are perishing are perishing for lack of obedience to God. In their heart they claim they are x, y, or z. But it is God who is the I AM. He planted the seed. We humble ourselves before him, not elevate ourselves or exalt ourselves. HE perfects us, not us perfecting us. Dont know how else to say it.
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Post by Natalie on Aug 24, 2020 14:42:25 GMT -6
barbiosheepgirl, said "2Thes is another way of describing those that are perishing are perishing for lack of obedience to God. In their heart they claim they are x, y, or z. But it is God who is the I AM. He planted the seed. We humble ourselves before him, not elevate ourselves or exalt ourselves. HE perfects us, not us perfecting us. Dont know how else to say it. " so the perishing are believers? I don't think that can be right... For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16
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Post by Natalie on Aug 24, 2020 14:58:21 GMT -6
barbiosheepgirl , if all the passages are about 70 AD, what is your understanding of Matthew 24:21? For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Aug 24, 2020 16:13:58 GMT -6
My question back, can a believer be deceived?
What is belief anyways? pisteuo "Only the context indicates whether 4100 /pisteúō ("believe") is self-serving (without sacred meaning), or the believing that leads to/proceeds from God's inbirthing of faith."
I am sure you are talking about those who are practicing faith in Jesus to mean believers in the sense that it is from God's inbirthing.
Again, we can not truly know, only by evidence of fruit in many cases, yet we do not know the essence of anyone's walk, or state of blindness, or rebelliousness even after tasting the good fruit. Please do not think I am challenging once saved always saved. Or think I am attempting to label anyone with anything. The thing is it does not say "have perished," that they are done, finished, nor does it say that the believing is past tense, meaning I believe once and dont need to believe further. In fact, the word for believing in John 3:16 is a present active. Not past, one and done. Faith is ACTIVE in its character.
The overall essence I see it in this 2thes passage is there is a situation that will happen before our gathering with Him. I resort to the many parables about the soils, the wheat and tares and Eph 6, which talks about our spiritual battle, and the faithful servant. These parables and teachings line up for me in a way that explain 2 Thes for me... in a way it hadn't before.
It says "are perishing." it is a present participle Passive voice: when an action used on a noun is made the subject of a sentence, or simply, when the subject is acted upon. So the person is having destruction happening upon them. The state of this person is in a position of destruction, but I do not see it as past tense. It is in present ongoing terms of an action upon the person, not the person destroying, it is the person in a state.
17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20“For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21“But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”
what happens when a person all of a sudden believes? Was he judged, then is not judged? For some reason it suggests a state of action "he who practices the truth". It seems to me to be an active situation for any believer.
My conclusion is that all of this is a present active, or in the case of some verb tenses (passive in nature). This very debate of the saving grace of Christ is what will be made very clear, no more mystery, very soon, right? Is it me and my belief or is it Him and the Light He gives me? Am I turning and seeking that Light, or am I perishing under my own self-interest? I have resorted to not use the word "believe" because what is the context of it? It makes more sense that I am FOLLOWING, TRUSTING Whom I follow, so as not to perish under the burden of deception and lies.
10and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.
The overall essence I see it in this 2thes passage is there is a situation that will happen before our gathering with Him. I resort to the many parables about the soils, the wheat and tares and Eph 6, which talks about our spiritual battle, and the faithful servant. These parables and teachings line up for me in a way that explain 2 Thes for me... in a way it hadn't before.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Aug 24, 2020 19:13:25 GMT -6
For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.
all of Matt24, all of Mark 13 all of Luke 21 are NOT all about the 2nd temple destruction only. Jesus was asked a 3 part question: When will these things happen (the physical 2nd temple being destroyed), what will be the sign of your Coming and what will be the end of the age.
Matthew's account to me answers these things but seems to answer the 2nd question first, then goes back to talk about the temple, then back to more detail of #2, then gives the answer to #3. Luke seems to have the chronology better, and brings clarity and a logical sequence to the answers compared to Matthew, and Mark is similar to Luke.
Couple things for me is I no longer am looking for the 70th week because it has been demonstrated to me that Jesus's ministry was in that One week. 7 and 62 and 1. There is more evidence shown to me that God's pattern is 490 complete and not a dangling 7 year. Seven times seventy , not seven times 69.
And from what I have read of the account of the 2nd temple destruction, it was quite perilous for those in that day. It cause a dispersion of the people. but also, we are told over and over and over again that in this life we will suffer persecution/tribulation/affliction, for His Name's sake.
So we have a greek translation of words spoken in Hebrew which includes all the attributes of the Hebrew language somewhat entangled in greek style in these 3 gospel accounts of the same event of Jesus answering a couple questions future judgement.
The 3 gospel accounts can be untangled, and they show the answers to those 3 elements of concern. when will these things (no rock left standing) be, what is the sign of your coming and will be the end of the age. Many things go on after the ascension so to say "those days" Jesus is referencing not only those days of the temple destruction, but those days of tribulation. He reinforces the birth pang thing for we learn from John's vision that more things will occur right up to the end. There will be wars and rumors of wars, famine pestilence..these are only the beginning of birth pains. Who is giving birth? The Seed conceived in the heart of man gives birth to a new creation (spiritually) see the first part of John 3, right?
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Post by venge on Aug 25, 2020 6:05:23 GMT -6
Still doesnt really address the question Im asking but thanks for trying. I thought my question was simple, maybe not. Is the question Im asking getting across to others? Dan 11:31 His forces will rise up and desecrate the temple fortress. They will abolish the daily sacrifice and set up the abomination of desolation. 32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. Is the passage in Daniel not pertaining to the end times? These two verses directly cause contradiction to believers being able to commit the abomination. How can a person commit this and do great exploits for God? Mark 13:4 So when you see the abomination of desolation standing where it should not be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.How can anyone see a believer, who is the temple of God commit the abomination that makes desolate AND flee to the mountains after seeing something in the heart of all(?) believers? Hey mikeJust waking up and I haven’t had time to review everything yet. I hate to ask a question to your question...where is the AoD in Revelation? I will try to respond back to your question and others when time permits. Not feeling well today! |
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Post by mike on Aug 25, 2020 6:18:15 GMT -6
barbiosheepgirl said: In context this passage, really the book of Hebrews (the book written to the Hebrews) was specifically comparing the new and old covenant, where some of the Hebrews were trying to continue to keep the practicing Judaism. These were those who were enlightened. Enlightened to what? The gift from heaven and the Holy Spirit and the good word of God and notice also "the powers of the age to come"... This group or audience were those who experienced these things. Can you & I relate to this on some level? I think so. Was this section written to the interpretation being used here? I think not. The powers of the age to come...Think on that a minute and answer this in earnest - who here has ever been used by God to raise someone from the dead? How about been used by the Holy Spirit to make the lame walk, deaf hear or blind see? What are these powers if not miracles? How can one have tasted them already if they are not only in the age to come (rhetorical)? So what I imagine is someone like Paul or perhaps Peter who had touched clothing to heal people or maybe just their shadow was able to do so. Sorry no one Ive ever met has that kind of squeeze! Can someone like this go back to sacrifice and offering knowing, having tasted and experienced this? I think not but apparently some were! In order for one of us to compare this passage to what we see going on today wouldnt be applicable, at least not at this time. Unfortunately BSG I am not following you completely here as your post did not address the question of "seeing" this AoD in the temple. Was that only for 70AD? Again if there is to be an AoD during the Trib, to start the Trib or at some point in the Trib or even before the millennial reign, it has to be a collective not one by one as this event happens at one time. Not today for me, two weeks from now for you, 6 months down the line for Venge and yesterday for D4L. We cant have the AoD be something that it is not. It is not individual at different times through history. What we have at different times through history is the need for a Savior in each individual.
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Post by mike on Aug 25, 2020 6:22:11 GMT -6
venge why do you ask? We werent talking about it being in Rev. We'd been discussing the gospels and 2 Thes. Does it have to be in Rev? I noted in prior post it certainly is in Daniel and points to the time of the end. Confused why you ask, but knowing you it is to try to make a point. When you get time...Feel better, praying for you bro
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Post by venge on Aug 25, 2020 7:47:26 GMT -6
barbiosheepgirl said: In context this passage, really the book of Hebrews (the book written to the Hebrews) was specifically comparing the new and old covenant, where some of the Hebrews were trying to continue to keep the practicing Judaism. These were those who were enlightened. Enlightened to what? The gift from heaven and the Holy Spirit and the good word of God and notice also "the powers of the age to come"... This group or audience were those who experienced these things. Can you & I relate to this on some level? I think so. Was this section written to the interpretation being used here? I think not. The powers of the age to come...Think on that a minute and answer this in earnest - who here has ever been used by God to raise someone from the dead? How about been used by the Holy Spirit to make the lame walk, deaf hear or blind see? What are these powers if not miracles? How can one have tasted them already if they are not only in the age to come (rhetorical)? So what I imagine is someone like Paul or perhaps Peter who had touched clothing to heal people or maybe just their shadow was able to do so. Sorry no one Ive ever met has that kind of squeeze! Can someone like this go back to sacrifice and offering knowing, having tasted and experienced this? I think not but apparently some were! In order for one of us to compare this passage to what we see going on today wouldnt be applicable, at least not at this time. Unfortunately BSG I am not following you completely here as your post did not address the question of "seeing" this AoD in the temple. Was that only for 70AD? Again if there is to be an AoD during the Trib, to start the Trib or at some point in the Trib or even before the millennial reign, it has to be a collective not one by one as this event happens at one time. Not today for me, two weeks from now for you, 6 months down the line for Venge and yesterday for D4L. We cant have the AoD be something that it is not. It is not individual at different times through history. What we have at different times through history is the need for a Savior in each individual. My point is, it isnt in Revelation. That book is what completes the vision. It has everything in it. There is a chance that the AoD doesnt happen in our future. This is why people disagree on it. We know what did happen. We dont know everything that will happen. As barbiosheepgirl pointed out, is it possible the AoD portion of prophecy from Matthew 24...is it possible that it was their future but not our future? I, myself, am not saying Yes or No. I am just asking the serious question to everyone if it is possible? 3 Questions were asked. I didnt want to go down this road because we are getting into alot more off the OP... For the 1st question, it refers back to the previous verse when he says: Is Jerusalem going to be thrown down in the future so that not one stone is left upon another? I don't recall that specifically in scripture from our future. But that did happen in their future. Jerusalem can be attacked in our future and even taken, but razing it or better yet - bull dozing it to the ground? I don't see that in our future. Then he says: 8All these are the beginning of sorrows. Its the opposite of living in his kingdom. We are living in the world and wickedness increases. He says: 9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake Havent they done that to them and Christians today? They were captured and delivered up to those in authority to be punished or killed. It still happens in the world today. And hated by all nations...should we count how many nations in the world actually detest Christians because there are many. In their time, they were hated by all nations for Christ sake. But he changes tone here: 14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. So he separates one message from another. He speaks of the time the destruction comes where one stone isnt left on another and then changes course speaking about the end from his third question (of the end of the world) Now, there are some difficulties if part is past and part is future. Because he does say in Matthew 24:29 What days? The days preceding which are marked here: And its the great tribulation that is made following the AoD setup. That is why I asked about it in Revelation. I try to examine every letter..and I'm not perfect. But I do my best to try to examine every piece and question it. If there is any doubt, I need to examine it over and over and ask more questions because the true outcome cannot leave room for any error, any questions. I know you mentioned Daniel 11 so lets go there. Daniel 12 says: The time of this great upheaval in society that everyone written in the book would receive resurrection. But when is that time? So I think the Daniel passage supports a future unfilled prophecy in part. If it refers to the "the end" and it refers to a "resurrection", those 2 items should link it with the return of Christ imo. But is just verse 40 and on that are future or are the verses before it also future or past? And that is the confusion of many! Verse 36 seems to support the AC when it says: Sounds like: 2 Thess 2:4 But that could explain other people in the past too. So which part is future for sure and which part is past? Now I know you linked verses 31-32, but if you scroll down some to 35, it says something interesting. So the entire time of verses 31-32 with the AoD isnt the end. Some may say thats because its the mid point lol. What I am saying is if you believe in a 7 year period, the end isnt the last half. If you are raptured up before all this happens (Pre TB), its all the end...all the time appointed and all wrath right? But the people are trying to save others at this time and even to the time of the end which implies that isnt here. Something also interesting is verse 45 He puts his own tabernacle in the Holy mountain. Mount Zion. Not saying I agree with this, but has anyone thought about how the man sits/stands/sets up in the temple of God place set apart from the world and set up by God if its not a "temple" and the Holy (if Mt Zion) is the area which he puts his own tabernacle in it. Just thinking outside the box =P |
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