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Post by venge on Aug 25, 2020 8:02:34 GMT -6
Venge, A few things You said, "Christ declared that he replaces the temple built with hands with himself and in Matthew 23:38 and Matthew 24:2 , Christ says he will destroy the temple made with hands...because he replaces it as a more perfect temple; even the veil was torn of that unholy temple." Christ never said anywhere that he destroys the temple. It was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD. Not Christ. Here's the verse. Matthew 24:2 NASB And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down." 2nd. You said "even the veil was torn of that unholy temple." This too is not correct. Christ himself said explicitly that that temple is his Father's house and where Jesus himself taught. Christ would not be teaching in an unholy Temple. John 2:16 NASB and to those who were selling the doves He said, "Take these things away; stop making My Father's house a place of business." He also said it was a house of prayer for the nations and that the money changes made it a den of theives. They set up their money exchange in the court of the Gentiles. You also didn't answer Natalie's question nor Mike's nor mine. How can the AOD take place in us- Christians or worse, in Jesus? It can't. We have a literal man standing in the holy place committing a visible abomination. None of this is possible in a symbolic temple. None of the verses you mention even hint that the 3rd temole is not real, literal. Good morning disciple4life , Did Christ tell his followers that the days will come that Jerusalem will be destroyed? Does God use other nations to accomplish his goal as a judgment? Christ obeyed what his Father had taught him and and in doing so, was correct for a Jew to worship in the temple in that regard. The Jews on the other hand, were they worshipping God the way he wants to be worshipped? What made the temple unholy was how they used it. Christ even showed us that 2 people were praying, the one was correct but the other wrong. The one beat his chest and asked for forgiveness. The synagogue wasnt just a place to worship, it became a symbol of the zealots to hold sway over the people. They turned what was to be teaching into control. That changed what God had instore into their own inclinations. That is why I posted: Why would we want an imperfect tabernacle built up? When Christ went through a more perfect one? Would Christ go back from a perfect one and allow a newly made tabernacle (3rd temple) to be just as good, equal or otherwise so that God doesnt reject it? Believe me disciple4life , I am not against you brother even if we spar. These questions I ask because something isn't right. And it becomes a major focus which it shouldn't be. But I understand we all want the truth, a better interpretation and the exact words used with the exact meaning conveyed so we can have no disagreements and all rejoice with the same answer. I'm there with you! But questions and problems do exist so its very mind racking. |
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Post by Natalie on Aug 25, 2020 8:21:55 GMT -6
I am going to see if I can summarize what you are saying, barbiosheepgirl , to see if I understand where you are. You see the AofD having taken place in the past with no dual fulfillment for the future. So, therefore, it's not in view in 2 Thes. You also see that whole passage as for believers. So the "falling away" (apostasia) happens because the "man of lawlessness" is sitting in the hearts of Christians who are perishing. But Jesus kills him with truth. I do see now that if you don't see 2 Thes as describing the AofD then there is no need for it to happen all at once. so, my questions: Paul mentions both the spirit of lawlessness which is already at work and a man of lawlessness. Why state that it's a man if he really means it's the spirit of lawlessness? If we can already see the spirit at work, why does Paul mention that "he" will be revealed? How can a believer have both the spirit of God and of lawlessness? (The passage links the man of lawlessness and Satan. You can't serve two masters. If the house is already occupied by one spirit how can it be occupied by another unless one is driven out? Can the spirit of lawlessness drive out the Holy Spirit?) I will say that yes, a believer could participate in disobeying God - happens all the time - that's sin. But to have lawlessness in your heart is being the opposite of a follower of Christ. Lawlessness is an anti-Christ spirit.
side thought - to me perishing is the opposite of having life in Christ. It's the difference between being a follower of Christ and not a follower. Being saved vs lost / believer vs. unbeliever / perishing vs having life in Him Therefore, I do not see it possible for perishing to describe a believer.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Aug 25, 2020 11:17:24 GMT -6
Natalie , sitting in the heart of ALL of mankind... yes, even the Christian. EDIT: 2 thes for me is about deceptive/lying influences upon man that attempts to destroy the flesh. "in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10and with all the deception of wickedness" but it does not say it IS Satan himself. my reasoning is based on the scriptures I post below and then some. Correct, Natalie, it doesn't need to be a singular one day event like a bomb going off. And, I kinda believe it IS happening right before our eyes. The 2nd Temple was not nuked. It was not a one day event. In fact I believe she began to lose ground in about 67 AD, with the final stone overturned about 73 AD. I get that from various readings searching the net, so maybe I am getting partial truths of history, who knows. But the destruction was not a single day event. So to, to me is this apostacy thing. It will be known but I dont think we will know until it has climaxed. 25“There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, 26men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
28“But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
31“So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near.
here is the most important part Jesus describes what a person can do to battle this man of lawlessness: 34“Be on guard, so that your hearts will not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day will not come on you suddenly like a trap; 35for it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth. 36“But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
If we are to whisked out of here why do we need to be on guard to escape all these things? Because, after the cross, Jesus became heir to the Throne of God, He was the One found worthy. We know from the Daniel statue that the final kingdom will be the Stone Kingdom. Currently we are living in the clay/iron. things that can't mix together. This is why we have to put on the armor of God of Eph 6 because we are in a battle of our current state, the FLESH. Until glorification happens, until we are changed in a twinkling, until mortal puts on immortality, we will suffer the slings and arrows and the pains of the birth process. But we dont lose heart because Jesus overcame all this for us. That is why we diligently seek Him daily. We dont just profess a faith and then not act upon it. We pray unceasingly. We are thankful for the Light, so that we can "see" this man of lawlessness and address his disobedience, first within, and sure, at a corporate level. EDIT: I dont know, natalie. My thinking lately on this has to do with the beast system that has risen over time, and perhaps based on this past event:
I will give you Dan 4: 26‘And in that it was commanded to leave the stump with the roots of the tree, your kingdom will be assured to you after you recognize that it is Heaven that rules.
27‘Therefore, O king, may my advice be pleasing to you: break away now from your sins by doing righteousness and from your iniquities by showing mercy to the poor, in case there may be a prolonging of your prosperity.’
28“All this happened to Nebuchadnezzar the king. 29“Twelve months later he was walking on the roof of the royal palace of Babylon. 30“The king reflected and said, ‘Is this not Babylon the great, which I myself have built as a royal residence by the might of my power and for the glory of my majesty?’ 31“While the word was in the king’s mouth, a voice came from heaven, saying, ‘King Nebuchadnezzar, to you it is declared: sovereignty has been removed from you, 32and you will be driven away from mankind, and your dwelling place will be with the beasts of the field. You will be given grass to eat like cattle, and seven periods of time will pass over you until you recognize that the Most High is ruler over the realm of mankind and bestows it on whomever He wishes.’
Nebuchadnezzar became a beast. His pride brought him down and it was for a period of 7. The indication of the end of his punishment would be "until you recognize that the Most High is ruler over the realm of mankind and bestows it on whomever He wishes." This is exactly what I believe has been happening to the churches. Not ALL the church body, but we could start a whole forum on "christianity" of today. If the church were all 100% pure in heart and mind BY her Faith, there would have been no need for Jesus to distinguish overcomers from those not overcoming in the 7 letters to the churches. Much of our "brethren" have become beast-like, spiritually. If not so, we would be ONE SINGLE DENOMINATION and of One Mind, but we are not. Many are playing the harlot/fulfilling their idea of salvation thru the pattern of Hagar. Are you pointing out the pronoun? Because I believe this is coming from the pattern of Adam, and his disobedience, not Eve. EDIT: I know, right? this is one of those mysteries that soon will be revealed. This is the battle that has been going on, and is now or will be a greater war right before His 2nd Coming. GOd is the one who will reveal this, at the apointed time. And keeping ourselves girded in Truth will aid in our understanding. It could very well be a single, individual person. I see it as a personal situation of the soul prior to its redemption.
14For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
15For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
23but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
Romans 1 gives us a long list of lawlessness, and the list that raises my eyebrows are these: 28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
29being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,
30slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
31without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;
32and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.
look at verse 31. very subtle forms of disobedience... now Natalie, I in no way think that God gives someone over to these things, while they are walking in the Faith and Hope of Christ having conquered these things. That is why He gives GRACE, right? Because all men fall short of the glory, so it must be by grace. What is this passage really teaching? It says they KNOW the ordinance of God.. to me this is talking about what God allows/disciplines for someone who is walking in disobedience. How do you know you are being disobedient? what plumb line tells your heart you are in disobedience? correct, that is because you see and are a witness to verse 2 here of Hebrews 12. but not all do, even though they say it with their mouths.. 1Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
2fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.the churches are not united on this front. many sheep have or are going astray. sin is entangling the many. the self-righteous Religions of Christianity produce pride & self-sanctification, only tickling the ears, and instilling works that are dead. Some of us are already heeding this call: “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues; 5for her sins have piled up as high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.
There are two basic things going on either in the christian world, the jewish world, any of the religions and naturally in the ungodly world: the lawlessness of man (the disobedience and disrespect for the command of God of which NO ONE has an excuse) and the playing of the harlot/Hagar: The person of the flesh operating of his fleshly ways, looking to and measuring all the things physical yet not pressing on to the things of the Spirit. and both of these things are a condition of mankind, literally physically and also literally spiritually (because we are told there are churches not overcoming). 1It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.(the Hagar)
16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
5For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
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Post by Natalie on Aug 25, 2020 19:19:54 GMT -6
to barbiosheepgirl ,
I agree with you that the Temple wasn't destroyed all at once. That's my understanding of history also. But the AofD was a single, one time event as being a pig sacrificed on the altar. I don't know for sure what year that was. I know people just reference this time period as 70AD. Maybe that was when it was.
So the "apostasia" if it is a falling away from faith could also not be all at once. I could agree with that. But I think that the revealing of the man of lawlessness will be a one time event. (because I see it as an actual man and not just the spirit of lawlessness) An "aha" moment for those who have read the Bible and see what is going on in the world. And he's not Satan, but he's given power by Satan to do deceiving signs and wonders.
Could you put the Scripture references in your posts so I can look things up easier?  I know I could google this and find it, but it's just easier if the reference is right there and I can flip my Bible open. Is he talking about a "man of lawlessness" or just "our fleshly nature"? Is He talking to the church or those alive during the End or those alive before 67 AD?
Yes, I was pointing out the pronoun. Paul had said that they could see the spirit of lawlessness already at work, yet he also said that the man of lawlessness would be revealed when the restrainer was no longer restraining. So if they could already see it then wasn't it already revealed?
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Post by venge on Aug 25, 2020 20:51:55 GMT -6
barbiosheepgirl, You said: If we are to whisked out of here why do we need to be on guard to escape all these things? Because, after the cross, Jesus became heir to the Throne of God, He was the One found worthy. We know from the Daniel statue that the final kingdom will be the Stone Kingdom. Currently we are living in the clay/iron. things that can't mix together. This is why we have to put on the armor of God of Eph 6 because we are in a battle of our current state, the FLESH. Until glorification happens, until we are changed in a twinkling, until mortal puts on immortality, we will suffer the slings and arrows and the pains of the birth process. But we dont lose heart because Jesus overcame all this for us. That is why we diligently seek Him daily. We dont just profess a faith and then not act upon it. We pray unceasingly. We are thankful for the Light, so that we can "see" this man of lawlessness and address his disobedience, first within, and sure, at a corporate level. —— Amen. Blew it out of the water! Question: Do you see all the wicked men at that time as mankind is lawless? Can there still be 1 man that is specifically designated as that man as well?
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Aug 26, 2020 7:48:12 GMT -6
venge , Natalie , sure there can be one man. That would be the easiest way to discern this fulfillment. Then we would know for sure that our gathering would be shortly. And I still hold for that event to coincide with a Feast. Likely FoT. I was quoting Luke in that one part you quoted, Nat, and yes, I will put in locations.. sorry bout that. I also use NASB for that one has all my notes written on it. probably your best point here Natalie. Though I still am holding to this thought: Jesus said, go and make disciples of Me.. Followers of Me. He did not say, put together a set of rules and tithing requirements and rituals and build traditions around Me. Make traditions of me using pagan practices, and disregard the Appointed Times of God. I started to go on with more things, but you see my point. It is the phariseeic attitude that Jude et al, that warn will come upon the churches. I see Jude as heeding the warning also: I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.
4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
12These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted;
13wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever.
16These are grumblers, finding fault, following after their own lusts; they speak arrogantly, flattering people for the sake of gaining an advantage.
“In the last time there will be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts.”
19These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit. 20But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,
21keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.
22And have mercy on some, who are doubting;
23save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh.this is a plurality of men. I think this is the same spirit of lawlessness Paul talks about and John, too. Nonetheless, there could be a single individual who attempts to "gather" this group of "sheep" who have fallen away from what they knew as Truth. Woe to them..
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Post by mike on Aug 26, 2020 12:49:54 GMT -6
barbiosheepgirl said: The below quote is from Romans 1 AUDIENCE & CONTEXT! The passage is written about those who deny God, not written to those who and accept Him. Please keep scripture in the context it is written. While both you & I can learn about what disobedience looks like from this chapter (among others), it is not for those who accept the Creator as their God. Very very clearly written about those rejecting God, not to or about believers! 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 20...so that they are without excuse. 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, ...24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Also looking at verse 31...yes these are subtle but again who do they apply to? Lets look at Proverbs for a moment. How does this book about wisdom and understanding describe this dichotomy? Proverbs 1:2 To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding;
3 To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity;
4 To give subtilty to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion.
5 A wise [man] will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:
6 To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.
7 The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of knowledge: [but] fools despise wisdom and instruction.Who despises wisdom and understanding? Are you a fool? Ps 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.Wow this sounds a lot like Romans 1. I am no fool (any more). Be careful dear sister. I realize you have this concern from a heart that desires God, but please be careful in associating the desires of those who hate and reject God with those who desire Him and His will.
EDIT - I also see that you are conflating Romans 7 too BSG. Paul is talking about the law
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Aug 26, 2020 22:16:59 GMT -6
mike , yes context and audience. You made me go look at my notes! No way would I want to distort anything. I was taught the audience was for those quite a ways from the source of the Gospel out in Rome, as far as the letter itself. It was to Jews and gentile believers, the beloved of God. unless I was taught wrongly. The context of ch 1 after the opening address, seems to carry over to 2. What do you do with ch 2 of Romans then? As far as Rom 7, I see it the way I have been taught thru study in that our flesh is weak. We are in a struggle all the time over this, until the day we are glorified. That is why we need Jesus... Paul is describing the struggle using what seems to be his own experience, then gives the answer to this double nature of the believer. Rom 8 1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. More so that Rom 8 is that personal relationship that develops and explains the power of Christ via the Spirit, and why those things of Rom 1 & 2, and 7, for instance, were brought up: Paul is establishing his case of why we need Jesus.
Rom 1:21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.Mike, yes, this is saying a form of denial of Who Is God, as they are not honoring/glorifying Him. So yes, this is a definition of those not seeking Him or even worse not acknowledging that He is Sovereign over all things. Although they "knew" or "had known"... hmm. sounds like someone who once knew Him.. It says they became foolish hearted. There is much packed into these opening statements for the case for Christ from Paul to his audience. I see it as him giving a bit of a history lesson; an explanation to why, what, when, and how, unrighteousness abounds because of God and His actions over such forms of disobedience. My study Bible tells me that Paul's teaching of justification by Faith alone was being distorted. Some directly refuted it (deniers), but there were others who twisted it (the gospel) to fit their own preferences. People were falling back into physical practices such as circumcision, and then the other extreme were saying Amen to saved by grace, but living any way they wanted. I see the audience as very broad and diverse in their thinking. Yet, Paul giving the big reassurance, in Romans 8's "Therefore...In Christ... I know this thread is about the 3rd physical temple. But the topic included the 2Thes 2 passages. TWO THINGS before the Gathering. apostacy & MoL revealing. Are they two parts of the SAME event? Is the apostacy the event that shows those whose faith were not In Christ, but in themselves all along? You and I and Natalie would never dream of denying our Lord Jesus as our Savior, our Redeemer, our Rest, and being In Christ, I recall the Epistles of John for even more support. I suppose those who are not In Christ are not part of the spiritual temple then in the first place, either. I think this is what the argument is regarding the standing in the holy place (spiritully). These people would never have been considered the Temple Stones. However, I still fall back on our earthly perspective: We think highly of all sorts of people in the ministries. but in ALL the ministries? I already have very little ability to hear the preaching from various denominations of Christianity, because of what they say or teach. It is counter to the Gospel. Sounds like they need a letter from Paul... seriously, if my understanding is in error I'll back off posting in this thread.
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Post by mike on Aug 27, 2020 6:31:50 GMT -6
1:32 Though they know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.
2:1 Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. 2 We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. 3 Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God?barbiosheepgirl the conversation in the thread went from the third temple to the man of lawlessness. Whether or not this was a physical individual who needed to sit in a physical temple OR is the man of lawlessness in each of us and we are looking for ourselves to be that man. Agree? The context of Romans is not talking about the man of lawlessness, but men (& women) who practice the things noted in Ch1. Paul admonishes those in Ch2 who are judging those who practice these, call themselves 'Christian' and yet practice these things. 4 Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? 5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed.
6 He will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.Paul further clarifies this as we continue reading. While each and every one of us has the capability to become apostate the CONTEXT (not yelling but emphasizing) is to those who say they name Christ, but practice works of lawlessness. Look at verse 5. Why are those he writes to being admonished? Their hardened hearts! BUT BUT those who by patience verse 7...He gives eternal life. As I said earlier - I do see your desire to serve the Lord and never stray from that calling. Speaking from experience I would say that it is possible to have tasted of Him and backslide to a point of Romans 1, BUT GOD! He rescued me undeservedly and now I (having my eyes opened more clearly) endeavor in my heart to live verse 7. Those Paul wrote to were living verse 5. 
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Post by mike on Aug 27, 2020 6:38:56 GMT -6
I responded to the first piece of your reply without reading the rest   I think that if we are looking for "man of lawlessness" to be in individuals, then there is a large portion of the 'church' who fit this category today. This I would agree is the apostasy, the great falling away. But for those who are not a part of that, the remnant - they are not the spiritual temple after all. Can we take this to the current world stage and take your minds eye to a place where lawlessness is currently residing? Portland, Minneapolis, Kenosha (name a city) - do we find D4L tearing up Memphis or Nashville? Do we see Mike going to NYC to loot and smash windows? Is Natalie in Chicago trying to shoot people? Is Venge running around VA with hatred towards people? God forbid! I would dare say that those in these situations are practicing lawlessness and allow the man of sin to run rampant through each of them! EDIT - I do feel that John covers this differentiation as well! Check out the split between light/dark! 1 John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. 18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 20 But ye (BSG, Mike, Natalie, D4L, Venge, etc.) have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things (<- AMEN!)I see that John also makes the distinction between the antichrist spirit (which we see in the world) and the actual antichrist that is to come |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Aug 27, 2020 8:11:59 GMT -6
mike , Paul further clarifies this as we continue reading. While each and every one of us has the capability to become apostate the CONTEXT (not yelling but emphasizing) is to those who say they name Christ, but practice works of lawlessness. Look at verse 5. Why are those he writes to being admonished? Their hardened hearts! BUT BUT those who by patience verse 7...He gives eternal life. the bold is my point all along. And I never said that those who seek Him for they are answering their Call, are vulnerable to the man of lawlessness. I am not describing the Spirit-filled Chosen Born-again Believer. I still see it the way it was pointed out to me that Paul builds his case about unrighteousness. The subject of the whole letter is Jesus, the object is the faultiness of mankind, of which the subject of the letter is where the faultiness is healed/redeemed/covered/washed..I could go on with more spiritual conditions. So are you are thinking that I am saying that a Believing Christ-following heart is going to be guilty of the characters of Rom 1? Not when washed by the Blood of Jesus. My point remains that it has to do with the Heart of a person and I will still stand by this. We do not know the condition of a person's faith on a personal note, and I see many a church failing their audience, leaving them vulnerable to wolves. Jesus is our Shepherd. His Sheep KNOW His Voice. edit: I removed a comment I made here that later I felt was a form of judgement on my part.
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Post by Natalie on Aug 27, 2020 8:16:28 GMT -6
I'm a little bit confused now...earlier you were saying believers could have the son of perdition in their hearts and now it seems you are saying that it's not for believers?
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Post by mike on Aug 27, 2020 8:19:56 GMT -6
I'm a little bit confused now...earlier you were saying believers could have the son of perdition in their hearts and now it seems you are saying that it's not for believers? YES - I am now confused too as your earlier posts led me to think this is what you were saying hence my retorts. Paul is writing to the 'church' - think of the church of our times where homosexuality is accepted and endorsed. We in the church accept the sinner, embrace them, do not judge them but MUST admonish that this is improper in Gods eyes, not endorse it. This I see as an example of possible lawlessness in the heart of a church/man. I dont think your earlier posts (BSG) were clear in that point |
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Post by Natalie on Aug 27, 2020 8:43:30 GMT -6
This is a question for anyone - when does it go from sin to lawlessness? I know that's not a clear line that you can say "Oh, I'm close but I'm not lawless yet." For an example - I know a couple who profess to be Christians, they are kind, generous, law abiding people, trust in Christ for their salvation. They are not married but are living as if they are. Obviously they are in sin. They also have the attitude that "It's my life and this is how I am going to live it" when this sin is addressed. Are they lawless or just sinning? I guess in my mind I see lawlessness as an outright disregard for God and His laws - any or all of it. Whereas my example above, they don't disregard God, but they are disobeying Him. I see the man of lawlessness deceiving unbelievers 2 Thes 2:10 "for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved." If you believe in Jesus for your salvation, you have loved the truth and been saved. You may be in disobedience (even more so than my couple above), you may be leaning on your own understanding (rosary beads) but You are still His child, still have the Holy Spirit, although you may be deeply grieving that Spirit. You may even be experiencing God's discipline.
I guess to me, if you are outright lawless then you don't actually belong to Christ.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Aug 27, 2020 8:50:36 GMT -6
Let me go back and look then at how I wrote it.
and Natalie, yes about your above post. Maybe we need a thread on lawlessness... as this detail I believe, is a detail indirectly related to the physical temple..
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I know I could google this and find it, but it's just easier if the reference is right there and I can flip my Bible open. Is he talking about a "man of lawlessness" or just "our fleshly nature"? Is He talking to the church or those alive during the End or those alive before 67 AD? 
