The Kingdom of God

MikeTaft- I think what you describe is a natural outcome of the studies I am trying to provide. As our mindset changes, as our "trust/resting" in Him grows deeper, we start to be less concerned about the moment of escape or specific understanding, and more concerned about being "available" and saying, Amen!

SK, can you add to your list the 144,000 witnesses? Can you give a list of scripture verses to read while we wait on that topic? I dont mind seeking more deeply of this subject, so as to be prepared to what you might say...

and yes, it really is 2:46 am MST as I write...what did we learn, there will be no "night" as the Glory of God(jesus) will be so bright? I am getting used to this insomnia...

The Bramble

Jdg 9:7 And when they told it to Jotham, he went and stood in the top of mount Gerizim, and lifted up his voice, and cried, and said unto them, Hearken unto me, ye men of Shechem, that God may hearken unto you.
Jdg 9:8 The trees went forth on a time to anoint a king over them; and they said unto the olive tree, Reign thou over us.
Jdg 9:9 But the olive tree said unto them, Should I leave my fatness, wherewith by me they honour God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees?
Jdg 9:10 And the trees said to the fig tree, Come thou, and reign over us.
Jdg 9:11 But the fig tree said unto them, Should I forsake my sweetness, and my good fruit, and go to be promoted over the trees?
Jdg 9:12 Then said the trees unto the vine[grape], Come thou, and reign over us.
Jdg 9:13 And the vine said unto them, Should I leave my wine, which cheereth God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees?
Jdg 9:14 Then said all the trees unto the bramble, Come thou, and reign over us.
Jdg 9:15 And the bramble said unto the trees, If in truth ye anoint me king over you, then come and put your trust in my shadow[rest in my shade]: and if not, let fire come out of the bramble, and devour the cedars of Lebanon.

Jotham was telling a parable relative to his time.  But God was also telling us a parable of the kingdom and how each nation would resist being the King and how His son would be rejected by many.  

The olive is Israel.  The fig is Judah.  The grapes are the unbelieving beast kingdoms.  The bramble is Christ.

Mat 27:29 And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!

Luk 12:49 "I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled!

Zec 11:1 Open your doors, O Lebanon, That a fire may feed on your cedars.

Heb 4:10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.


Combined Israel had the mandate to bring in the Kingdom, they did not.  Judah had the mandate to bring in the Kingdom, they did not.  So the kingdom was given over to the gentiles for a time.  But they also did not bring in the kingdom.  So the lowly Bramble was considered.  And the Bramble said, "Trust in Me and I will be your King, otherwise, prepare for fire."

But instead of making the Bramble the king, they mocked the Bramble by making a crown of bramble thorns. They mocked the Bramble by calling Him King in name, but not in heart.  They did not trust Him and sit in His shade.  And now, they await the fire.

For those who have have not read the Restoration of All Things thread, when we speak of fire - we speak of the Fiery Law and Character of God - which will purify and judge for the removal of sin.

All,

Can you please do me a favor and remind me of the areas we wish to still cover here? What I have so far is this:

1. A overview of the timeframes of coming events.
2. Matthew 24
3. The 144,000
4. How we should live within this kingdom understanding
5. The Kingdom Parables

Was there anything missing from this list?

Or do we think we have covered the topic effectively enough? Thanks for the feedback. I can be done if you are all satisfied with what we have covered. Just let me know.

Yeah, I would say these are both Restoration topics - but there is overlap.

Matt 25:
1. I do not accept the "either / or" condition that you put down.  You have created a either / or condition that is not necessarily true.  There could be other options other than the two you presented.  But I believe I just answered this question about Satan in the restoration thread. Perhaps you have not seen it yet?  Please clarify if this your post here is after that post or prior to that post and whether my answer in the restoration thread answers this question for you. Here is the link to part 1 and part 2.

2. We have already demonstrated in the Restoration thread that this passage cannot be talking about endless torment based on a lack of faith in Christ.  Please see that post and thread for this explanation.

Matt 28:
If you and your wife are on a ferris wheel and you are terrified of heights - and she says, "Don't worry, honey, I will be with you the whole ride"  Do you turn to her and say, "What?!  You're not going to be with me after the ride?"  No.   (I hope I didn't out a secret fear of mikes  )

It is the same as this verse.  Jesus was not discussing what was going to happen in a different age.  He was talking about this age and that as they went about making disciples, He would be with them, even though He was about to ascend.  Not every statement in the bible is about eternity - very, very few of them are.  They are almost all about the ages.  This make sense because the Ages were made for mankind and the bible was written for those living in the ages.

Eph 3:8 to me—the less than the least of all the saints—was given this grace, among the nations to proclaim good news—the untraceable riches of the Christ,
Eph 3:9 and to cause all to see what is the fellowship of the secret that hath been hid from the ages in God, who the all things did create by Jesus Christ,
Eph 3:10 that there might be made known now to the principalities and the authorities in the heavenly places , through the assembly, the manifold wisdom of God,
Eph 3:11 according to a purpose of the ages, which He made in Christ Jesus our Lord,
Eph 3:12 in whom we have the freedom and the access in confidence through the faith of him,

Heb 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds[ages] were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.

Folks, I've been going back and forth on this with the Lord for a couple weeks now. I know I just asked what the open questions were, but I believe I asked this in the flesh.  I am feeling led to bring my "lecture" series to a close in this thread. Let's just go to question and answer mode at this point. If someone has a question, I'd be happy to answer, or perhaps you all want to discuss among yourselves.

My purpose is to issue the call and to serve those that are being called out of their traditional teachings and traditional churches.  Some will find themselves in this group but find certain passages challenging.  Others will want to have a deeper understanding so they can better teach.  I am here for you.  These are things of the spirit not of the mind.

We have three open threads, Hearing God, Restoration of All Things, Kingdom of God.

Perhaps we need a new thread for Q&A that does not constrain us to one or the other of these topics? If someone wants to start such a thread, I will leave that up to their leading. 

barbiosheepgirl ,

I’ll try to read between your lines and answer any questions I feel are in your recent post. First, I am going to deal with Daniel’s 70 weeks again. I know that wasn’t the primary part of your questions and so I will post about the 70 and then finish with the rest of your question in a separate post. I have a more detailed post on Daniels 70 weeks here. This issue is important for the following reasons:

1. It is the primary basis by which a 7 year tribulation is determined
There are other evidences of 7 day and 7 year periods of time in scripture. But Daniel 9 is the primary justification. When we look at the 1260 days, 42 months, time, times, and half a time periods of time that are in Daniel and The Revelation, we could add those up to 7 years, but they could also add up anything from 3.5 years to 21 years. We have Noah entering the ark and many other patterns of 7. There very easily could be a future 7 year period of time that focuses the transition of the kingdoms from beast to Jesus. But it could also be a different time length.

2. It forces a tribulation into the future
Those that teach the 70th week hasn’t happened, must, by necessity, look toward a future 7 year period of time that they then attach to the tribulation even though there is not scriptural reason to connect these things. Even if the 70th week was future, Daniel 9 does not say there will be tribulation during that 70th week. It describes an abomination but there is more than one abomination described in Daniel.

3. It is the primary basis by which a covenant / treaty concept is determined
This is the passage that is used for everyone of those “sermons” we’ve heard about a coming peace treaty with Israel. This is a false interpretation and frankly, people should immediately correct others when they hear this - but then we all just go along. There is no peace treaty with Israel mentioned. There is a confirming of a covenant with the many.

4. It is a significant reason why a returning to the “Jews” concept is taught (dispensationalism)
This is an important one. This improper reading of this passage allows people to assume there was a long gap where God was dealing with the “church” and then after the gap He goes back to dealing with the “Jews.” This then causes an assumed separation between these two groups where there should be none. There is one Church and it did not start in the 1st century, but much earlier as this thread shows. The genetic Jews and Israelites are no different than any other nation or people and will come into the Church the same way as everyone else - by His grace.

5. It demonstrates how mainstream Christianity is can be easily shown to be wrong
By showing a way to look at this passage that is completely different than the mainstream view - and yet cannot be disproven, we see that we should be much more diligent in our automatic belief of mainstream teaching. There is no way for the view of Daniel’s 70 weeks that I present to be disproven. It is just as valid as any other view and yet. It is not being taught - why? Because we have, for the most part, just allowed the prophecy guru’s to tell us what to believe. It is in all the movies and books so it must be right.

6. It demonstrates how mainstream Christianity violates its own hermeneutics to confirm its own opinions
The things that the mainstream claim are in this passage are not there and yet, they are very quick to correct anyone who adds an interpretation to a scripture when it disagrees with them. We should take note of this.

7. It destroys the message of Daniel 9 - so we should get it right
The message of Daniel 9 is not being taught by mainstream Christianity because they are too invested in a future 70th week. The basic message of the last 4 verses of this chapter are saying:


Dan 9:24  "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

Your people and your city have 490 years (70 weeks of years) to accomplish the mission - which consists of:
* to finish the transgression,
* to make an end of sin,
* to make atonement for iniquity,
* to bring in everlasting righteousness,
* to seal up vision and prophecy and
* to anoint the most holy place

Dan 9:25  "So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.

The time will start when there is a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem and in the last week (after 69 weeks), the Messiah will be present. There are a few start dates to choose from. There was a decree of Artaxerses in 458 BC - which just happens to be exactly 490 years prior to 33 AD. This decree is mentioned and given in Ezra 7.

Dan 9:26  "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

Still in that 70th week, (after the 7 and the 62), the Messiah will be cut off. The city and sanctuary (temple) will be destroyed in a war with much desolation. This destruction will be done by the people (army) of the prince who is to come (Prince Titus of Rome).

Dan 9:27  "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

The Messiah will [confirm / strengthen] a covenant - the one He made many years earlier by His total ministry during this 70th week. Even His reading in the temple:

Luk 4:18  "THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,
Luk 4:19  TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD."
Luk 4:20  And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him.
Luk 4:21  And He began to say to them, "Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing."

In the middle of the week, Jesus was baptized on the Day of Atonement. This is the time period where the temple priests recorded that odd events occurring around the Day of Atonement - from that point on. He then went to be tempted for 40 days and nights. This provided a picture of the Day of Atonement and the two goats.

This act officially stood as the end of God’s recognition of sacrifices. At this point, the people would begin to choose their lamb. Typically they had 4 days. In this case they had almost 4 years (3.5). God made His choice immediately:

Mat 3:14  But John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?"
Mat 3:15  But Jesus answering said to him, "Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he *permitted Him.
Mat 3:16  After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him,
Mat 3:17  and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased."

After this time, the desolations will occur and the destruction spoken of in verse 26 will be completed - this happened from 63 to 70 AD - after a 7 year war. The people had chosen poorly.


This reading of Daniel 9:24-27 requires no special interpretation.  It does not add anything to the verses that are written.  It does not add a gap or a peace treaty with Israel.  It lines up with history.  Most importantly, it clarifies the meaning of the message from Gabriel.  We must keep in mind, that the whole point of the 70 weeks was to accomplish those items bulleted above.  These items have not been accomplished and will not be accomplished by the mainstream 70th week either.  Even mainstream teachers do not teach that all those things will be accomplished at the end of their 70th week.  But they ignore those things completely because all they are focused on their future 70th week. 

These verses were an assignment with a time limit.  They were not a statement about what would be accomplished.  Judah and Jerusalem could have accepted their King - but they did not and they failed the assignment.  The beast kingdoms continued to rule over them.  But this is all coming to a head in our lifetime.