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Post by boraddict on Jan 18, 2018 8:59:16 GMT -6
C W,
This is a delicate situation. For me at least. The moderators have a responsibility to participate and be responsible for the forum. Let us say that they were considering me to be a moderator. They would rightfully need to know more about me. Although, I would say "No" because I do not have the right stuff.
You are right to question them; however, they have done nothing wrong. They have this burden of responsibility. They share your loss as do I.
Post Script: "you guys get in your moderator meetings," CW, although this made me laugh it is not fair. The "you guys" being referred to are our family. The one that has hurt you should be contacted. He needs to discuss this with you. He would say "let's love one another." That is what he would say. Personally, I think he has not thought this through correctly. He should not have left the void. To pull out like that is short sighted. He was quick in his mind, full of wit, but left a void in your heart.
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Post by Natalie on Jan 18, 2018 9:10:02 GMT -6
Moderators have to be able to work together and that is why we may have meetings. Whatever it is that people think, we don't have meetings very often. We don't spend time talking about everything and everyone. When a post is reported (most often by a member not moderator), we discuss it and decide what to do. Many times that just requires us to ask questions, publicly or privately. It's not things that require a majority vote or input from the members of the board. We do the best we can. If someone is unhappy about the way things are done, they need to send a message to Gary. Yes, he's busy, but he's ultimately the one in charge. And he has access to all our "meetings". Our discussions get archived, but they aren't deleted.
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Post by mike on Jan 18, 2018 9:25:41 GMT -6
"His teachings were questioned both in the threads and privately. i'm not sure if you are aware but we log about 500 guests each and every day. I have several e-mails to SK advising him that I will be asking questions, sometimes for myself, sometimes for others as guests and other members who "lurk" may not. I see that as a 'role' I must fulfill. Sometimes people just dont speak up, I understand that. If you go through some of the threads you will see those questions asked. Some of the responses I did not agree with but in an effort to allow the teaching to continue I relented as did others (moderators included)."mike I am very aware of how many people are coming through here daily. But he was given the go to present these teachings by the moderators. So I can see why he felt a bit offended. He asked for permission. I think WE THE FORUM should be shown what parts were being questioned. We're there other viewpoints/answers given? This actually could have been very educational. You guys are being compared to the Pharisees and with all the behind the scenes stuff going on, it sure seems that way sometimes to many on here. I am not saying that is what is going on, but to many (not SK, he doesn't know I am doing any of this) you guys get in your moderator meetings about things such as questions and teachings being presented, when maybe more of a majority opinion or viewpoint is required. Do you see what I am saying? CWood - I sent this to you privately a few minutes ago, but its worth sharing here too to address the above- think about someone who is a Jew or holocaust survivor/family member and tell them they are not a Jew or part of modern Israel-know what i mean? My daughter is 25% Jew - Jew = one inwardly but they are also an ethnicity, we cant disregard that about people. Just like being male or female is sacred so is ethnicity, its God given. Can we also redefine male/female like we are today? Can the teaching SK was giving which spiritualized a bit too much be applied to male/female? Scripture says in Galatians 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. I mean I get the context of the verses and what Paul was teaching but to take that out of the context can lead to certain misapplications. He even said we need to throw hermeneutics out in one post. That can be very dangerous at times.
There were other areas which I questioned, unfortunately I do not have the time to go to find them right now and may not for a few days, but anyone can feel free to read through the Restoration Thread or Kingdom Thread or search for my posts in those threads and see the questions posed. For example I feel SK altered the view of Satan to fit into the theology presented on Restoration. I'm not being dogmatic but he disregards Satan ever being an angel? He was created as an agent of evil? That was something I cant agree with could you (rhetorical)? He disregarded my question as "either/or" and used this different view point to justify it. Either God restores all or He does was my point. SK's answer was He does but Satan is different...I get that he is not redeemed, but if God in fact will restore everything...everything = everything not almost everything. Maybe its just my mindset, or perhaps not. I dont have that answer right now and may not until we all go home
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Post by kjs on Jan 18, 2018 9:27:54 GMT -6
I am very aware of how many people are coming through here daily. But he was given the go to present these teachings by the moderators. So I can see why he felt a bit offended. He asked for permission. I think WE THE FORUM should be shown what parts were being questioned. We're there other viewpoints/answers given? This actually could have been very educational. You guys are being compared to the Pharisees and with all the behind the scenes stuff going on, it sure seems that way sometimes to many on here. I am not saying that is what is going on, but to many (not SK, he doesn't know I am doing any of this) you guys get in your moderator meetings about things such as questions and teachings being presented, when maybe more of a majority opinion or viewpoint is required. Do you see what I am saying? cwood85 Apparently, this whole event has upset you.... but now you are taking things out of context and applying them to different things. For example you state he asked permission -- Yes he asked permission for one topic -- specifically Restoration -- he had his say and some of us even pointed out issues we had with his teaching. Did he ask permission for everything -- NO -- and he was called to account for those items that crossed the line -- with deletions / locks and PM requests for revision. You state we act behind the scenes -- actually those discussions are few and far between -- yes there is a moderator area where an moderator can raise an issue of concern and allow other moderators to review it and discuss it -- since all of us are in different time zones that discussion may take several days -- because we are rarely online at the same time. Most times the issue is raised within the thread instead and all can weigh in on the matter. Just this past month (early Jan.) only three issues got raised "privately" and two of those the decision was for no action to be taken. The SK event -- He was not asked to leave, nor was he harassed to leave (I believe only one moderator had direct contact with him during that time, the rest, like me only learned of the event days after it happened) Natalie answered your main concerns, I believe -- no background checks are done, no special searches are done, no one is trying to entrap someone with a "gotcha"..... We simply try to let the forum threads flow as smoothly as possible.... and allow everyone to have their say -- as long as they do not break one of the three rules..
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Post by cwood85 on Jan 18, 2018 9:48:46 GMT -6
boraddict - Post Script: "you guys get in your moderator meetings," This was not meant in a derogatory sense, it really was not. What I mean is some things, like questions about teachings, could be made more public as anonymously and some things when they reach a certain level, should be presented to Gary. I know he is busy, but I fell maybe some situations should be presented to himbefore final decisions/actions are made. I also see Natalie stated they do takes these things to Gary. Edit: I also want to add I do not disrespect the Moderators here and appreciate what they do. It is most of the time a thankless job and having many such jobs myself, it is not easy. I also have stated above and will clarify for kjs know SK was not made or asked to leave and he did so on his own accord.
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Post by cwood85 on Jan 18, 2018 11:16:52 GMT -6
"Apparently, this whole event has upset you.... but now you are taking things out of context and applying them to different things." kjs this hasn't just upset me, but many. I am just currently the only being publicly vocal about it. I am being messaged from people who have not posted in months regarding my questions asked above as they feel similar. I guess what I am saying is there should be a process that needs to be followed that is publicly posted for all to see. Right now for many we are the towns people and the viewpoint regarding the moderators (not all and this is not solely my opinion at all) the sheriff and the only one with a gun... I have said all that I feel I should and probably more and offended some. I am sorry for anyone that is offended or upset by my post. Problems however are not known until they are pointed out. The is a mutual feeling among many, not just myself.
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Post by mike on Jan 18, 2018 11:35:27 GMT -6
Cwood a few questions for you then since you've been appointed spokesperson - are all aware of the detailed circumstances that happened? Who are those who are on the "bandwagon"? (Not asking to name names).
What is your (collectively) suggestion as how things should be posted publicly? I am not suggesting this will happen, I am asking that you are saying there is a problem, please also present a viable solution to the perceived problem so it could at the very least be considered. In addition please define the problem? In other words, what do you see (or think you see) that we (moderators) dont see?
Since this is "open forum" please ask the group if the recent situations including folks like Davidjayjordan and/or DennisWatson were handled according to your "sheriff with the only gun" or how your process wouldve been applied in those given situations, which were both vastly different. Help us to serve you better please.
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Post by witness1 on Jan 18, 2018 12:06:13 GMT -6
I think what may be upsetting to many is that the body of Christ is broken. We desperately are crying out to be redeemed. What has transpired is upsetting because it shows our great need for a Savior.
We are not a church, but we have in a way been acting like one. Many say this place is their main source of Bible study (which is a separate issue...). If this is the case, the moderators have the responsibility to shepherd the flock. They are in some ways acting as pastors, which is not a role to be taken lightly, as God says He will judge those in authority more harshly. And shepherding an online flock is insanely harder than shepherding a local church, and experience tells me a local church is hard enough. We are so broken... come quickly Lord Jesus!
As far as the moderators being sheriffs... Yes, they have the guns because they are in authority as God has placed them. I don't have a gun because God didn't give me authority here. Anyone who is upset about not having authority here needs to take it to God.
I am not upset about things being carried out behind the scenes... this is scriptural. I myself have come close to messaging the moderators several times on some of the things being presented. Matthew 18 teaches us to talk to our brother first, and if he does not listen, to take it to authority. Things are only taken to the church at large if our brother does not listen to authority. So I disagree that everything should have been carried out in public.
It sounds like the issues surrounding this are a mix of: lack of public discourse (which is not scriptural), feeling like more people should have authority (also not scriptural), and some supposed behind the scenes search. I of course don't know what searches or whatever were done, but I feel like we all assume some level of risk when we sign up for a forum like this. This is upsetting for many, but let's try to separate the 3 issues and take every thought captive to search for truth. This is so hard to do when we're hurt and someone we love is hurt.
Let us seek to come together... Let us not beat our fellow servants while our master is delayed!
"So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves." Phil 2:1-3
We need Jesus to do this fully, but let's strive toward this together while we wait for Him! I love all of you and pray the Lord will be gracious to each of you!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2018 12:28:01 GMT -6
From what I can see from this thread, there comes one verse to my mind
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
We all, no one excluded (!), should consider to take on the whole armor of God. This is the context of the above cited scripture. And one essential part of that armor is prayer.
Pray for each other here, for the mods for wisdom and that God himself may lead us, unite us and we may be able to discern the spirits (1 Cor 12:10) in these troubled times. Have you ever considered, that the (spiritual) war is not anywhere out there in the wild but right here in this forum?
James 1:19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath
Just as a reminder for all of us, before pressing the button "Create Post"
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Post by willard on Jan 18, 2018 12:53:24 GMT -6
If I could I would like to offer my viewpoint about this site and what I perceive. I just recently "joined" but I've been lurking here since last May or so. I was on another site that had you all listed as a link. I had a look and I've never left. I have learned so, so much about the Bible from you people. I had read the Book, but it turns out that's all I did was "read" it. I am eternally grateful (literally) for the insight and for being led to see what was always just outside my sight. That being said, I have had a little trouble discerning a few things I've seen here that maybe didn't feel right. As an example, some of the "numbers crunching" last year seemed like they were being stretched to fit what was wanted. But some of it seemed perfectly valid also. I guess my point is, in regard to this issue, is that I feel the moderators have the responsibility to keep a certain amount of order lest chaos erupts and people start getting ugly. We are supposed to be on the same team. Like I said, I've been here watching for a while and I have yet to overtly see anybody get treated unfairly. One positive to take from this conversation: If I don't like what I hear on the radio, I simply change the station. So you all trying to work things out without simply leaving is a testament to your worth. (If that didn't make any sense, don't worry, it does to me.) Maranatha!
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Post by kjs on Jan 18, 2018 13:07:30 GMT -6
"Apparently, this whole event has upset you.... but now you are taking things out of context and applying them to different things." kjs this hasn't just upset me, but many. I am just currently the only being publicly vocal about it. I am being messaged from people who have not posted in months regarding my questions asked above as they feel similar. I guess what I am saying is there should be a process that needs to be followed that is publicly posted for all to see. Right now for many we are the towns people and the viewpoint regarding the moderators (not all and this is not solely my opinion at all) the sheriff and the only one with a gun... I have said all that I feel I should and probably more and offended some. I am sorry for anyone that is offended or upset by my post. Problems however are not known until they are pointed out. The is a mutual feeling among many, not just myself. Cwood85: You are not being very helpful... You indicate that it is not just you but several other people -- but you fail to identify specifically what you and all these people are upset about. Was there a moderator discussion about SK -- Yes, a member raised a question about some of his teachings and we did discuss whether it did or did not break one of the rules. That is part of our jobs -- determine if the rules are followed. This done as a discussion since we are human beings and we do not all agree if there is/was a violation. Should these discussion be made public -- NO, this forum already has the rules established (as already laid out) -- if the moderators feel a rule was broken -- we reach out to the person - usually through PM to consider revising their post. If that fails, than the post is locked. Once in awhile, banning a member is discussed -- as an extreme measure. Neither of these discussion warrant a public "airing". Sometimes, no decision is reached among the moderators and the issue is raised to the administrators -- again -- there is no need making this event public. This particular event with SK -- made SK decide to delete his account -- for his own reasons. It appears he shared his reasons with you and a few others -- giving you ONE Side of the story -- but rather than ask us (the moderators) for our side of the story -- you immediately jump to the conclusion that we are being "High Handed" and making absolute decisions on what is acceptable and threatening to ban someone. SK was not banned. SK was not even threaten with being LOCKED. So again what is the issue -- is it simply because you are not a moderator and do not take part of all discussions?
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Post by cwood85 on Jan 18, 2018 13:43:09 GMT -6
I am going to respond later this evening when I have more time to read, collect my thoughts and comment more thoroughly. Trying to do this in between doing other things is not working well.
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Post by boraddict on Jan 18, 2018 19:46:26 GMT -6
A few days ago I knew something was wrong. I looked at the site, and where were the familiar faces? Nowhere to be found. So I kept quiet. I thought I had offended SK with my posting on his thread. Sometimes I end up in left field. I mean way out there. So I waited, and then he was gone. What had I done? Wow.
Now here we are. So hats off to CW for bringing this subject to light. In that regard she has spoken for me; she has brought things out in the open.
I love SK and I miss him; however, anyone enjoying the blessings of this society should like Socrates yield to judgment.
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Post by cwood85 on Jan 19, 2018 10:30:07 GMT -6
Here are the answers to your questions mike: Cwood a few questions for you then since you've been appointed spokesperson < No one appointed me to anything nor asked me to say anything. - are all aware of the detailed circumstances that happened? < I would say for the most part yes as far as I know. Who are those who are on the "bandwagon"? (Not asking to name names). < Not sure who you are referring to in this bandwagon?What is your (collectively) suggestion as how things should be posted publicly? I am not suggesting this will happen, I am asking that you are saying there is a problem, please also present a viable solution to the perceived problem so it could at the very least be considered. In addition please define the problem? In other words, what do you see (or think you see) that we (moderators) dont see? < I didn't ask to get the messages I have gotten from people, so these are their words, not mine. I have just noticed how many leave, seemingly on a whim, and then after posting this thread I get messages like these:
"All of that just to say... everything you posted to the moderators... thank you for speaking up. I see and have seen (since after September 23 of 2017); bad behavior time and time again, and this place became kind of like a "social club" where one is "in" or one is "out". There is a "group" in charge, including mods, and the members they like. And this group clearly runs things, and IMO they gang up and attack members that they either don't like or have a problem with. This kind of thing, I avoid and it is why I don't go to any brick and mortar church regularly."
"I don't know if you remember me or not. I was here on the forum a lot over the summer and even into the fall; haven't signed in since October (though I do come and view some of the threads and read from time to time). I really miss this place, the place that it WAS (before all the moderator "power trips", excessive "moderating" and "controlling"... just one example, only being able to post something that the moderators deem to be relevant to the topic of whatever thread is being posted under). It all just got to be too too much."
There are more that I have been sent like this^^^^ You guys don't have to believe me, doesn't matter to me. Pretty clear however. Hope that answers your question Mike.
Since this is "open forum" please ask the group if the recent situations including folks like Davidjayjordan and/or DennisWatson were handled according to your "sheriff with the only gun" or how your process wouldve been applied in those given situations, which were both vastly different. Help us to serve you better please. <That's actually pretty easy since both pretty much walked themselves out the door with very clear rule breaking. One was calling names and the other claiming the Holy Spirit is female...kjs Your answers are next: Cwood85: You are not being very helpful... < Neither are you. You indicate that it is not just you but several other people -- but you fail to identify specifically what you and all these people are upset about. < Please see above.Was there a moderator discussion about SK -- Yes, a member raised a question about some of his teachings and we did discuss whether it did or did not break one of the rules. That is part of our jobs -- determine if the rules are followed. This done as a discussion since we are human beings and we do not all agree if there is/was a violation. Should these discussion be made public -- NO, this forum already has the rules established (as already laid out) -- if the moderators feel a rule was broken -- we reach out to the person - usually through PM to consider revising their post. If that fails, than the post is locked. Once in awhile, banning a member is discussed -- as an extreme measure. Neither of these discussion warrant a public "airing". < Wasn't talking about that, I am talking about question posed about the threads, like doctrinal questions, educational questions, thing's that would be helpful for others to see. Clearly discussing members who have violated the rules is non of the forums business. Never said anything about disciplinary discussions. You are also putting words and context into things that I AM NOT SAYING. Sometimes, no decision is reached among the moderators and the issue is raised to the administrators -- again -- there is no need making this event public. < Never said it should be.This particular event with SK -- made SK decide to delete his account -- for his own reasons. < Yes I know that, have all along. It appears he shared his reasons with you and a few others -- giving you ONE Side of the story -- < My information is not one sided, and not just from SK. Those who have heard other sides of the story, not just from SK are very upset with how things were handled as well. but rather than ask us (the moderators) for our side of the story -- you immediately jump to the conclusion that we are being "High Handed" and making absolute decisions on what is acceptable and threatening to ban someone. SK was not banned. SK was not even threaten with being LOCKED. < Never said anything about that being done either. So again what is the issue -- is it simply because you are not a moderator and do not take part of all discussions? < Clearly stated above that I do not want to be a moderator nor take on the responsibility. I do appreciate what you guys do, I know it is not easy.
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Post by Natalie on Jan 19, 2018 11:39:04 GMT -6
If someone is that upset with how things are here, then they need to take that to Gary. Yes, he's busy, but if the moderators are having "power trips, excessive moderating, and being controlling," then he's going to want to know about it.
There are many reasons that a member might "leave on a whim". Sometimes they tell someone, sometimes they don't. I know some members who were frequent posters have had to take a break from the boards because of things in their life. They didn't announce it, and they didn't delete their accounts, but their absences have been noticed.
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