Ok, so I could see this possibly being accurate. I would like to see your detailed explanation. What about timing and identity of the first 4 horsemen? Do you see them pertaining primarily to Islam, or to other things? When did they begin? Are they consecutive, or cumulative? Do the riders represent real individuals? Do you see any correlation of the horsemen to the Daniel 7 beasts? (I've written a thread about them).
Good question watchmanjim. One that will take some time to answer in depth so I will break it up into sections.
First of all the timing.
One very important detail about the Revelation that I think many overlook, is that the place John is called up to in heaven is the heavenly tabernacle which served as the pattern for the earthly tabernacle and later the temple in Jerusalem. The heavenly tabernacle is the seat of God's throne and the one on earth which is patterned after it serves as His footstool, the Ark of the covenant in particular. (1 Chron. 28:2, Ps. 99:5, Isaiah 66:1)
So when John enters the heavenly tabernacle, holy place, we find that he sees things that correlate to what was in the earthly tabernacle/temple. The seven flames of fire, the sea, the altar of incense, the cherubim.
Now many people believe that what John first sees is a future event, but I tend to believe that he was actually shown an event from his past.
Let's look at two different passages:
5Out from the throne come flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God;
6And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.
You notice that both passages have something in common: "the seven spirits of God". In the first passage we see them described as seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, this is represented in the tabernacle on earth by the seven branched menorah. But in the other verse the seven spirits are described as seven horns and seven eyes on the Lamb that is standing as if slain. Why the difference in description? I think the obvious answer is that John is witnessing Christ's entrance into the heavenly Holy place after He was crucified and resurrected. What John sees is the transition from the Old Covenant era to the New Covenant era from a heavenly perspective. Isn't it interesting that we get a picture of this transition in the upper room, when the disciples receive the Holy Spirit which appears to them as flames of fire! Also in the passage we see that in fact the new song sung by the elders and living creatures reflects the New Covenant too.
9And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. 10“You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.”
you will notice that they literally sing the song of the New Covenant, for reference see Hebrews chapters 9 and 10. Christ entered the heavenly sanctuary as the Lamb that was slain to redeem mankind, from every tribe tongue and nation, they are made to be a kingdom and priests to God. I would add that Hebrews tells us that this event only happened once. It will not happen again. Christ will never enter heaven as the Lamb standing as if slain again.
also note what John says at the beginning of the book of Revelation
4John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood— 6and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
John writes that we, believers of the New Covenant, have been made a kingdom, priests to God. John says this is something that has already happened, for those believers he was writing to. So we must realize that what John witnesses in Revelation 4 is in fact the inauguration of the New Covenant in Christ, not an event from the future but rather an event from John's past. Once I saw this I could not get over how obvious it is. But when you have seen it standing on a different foundation for years, it is obscured.
I point this out because when we realize that John saw Christ entering heaven after His death and resurrection, we have a different perspective on the timing of the opening of the seals on the scroll.
Others (BrazenLaver) have pointed out that they think the seals correlate to the colored horses that Zechariah 1 talks about, you can look it up for yourself. I would agree except that like the change in the Holy Spirit, I believe that there was a change in how these horses are sent out. Like the Spirit is now sent out by the Lamb, so too the seal horses and riders are now sent out by the Lamb as He removes the seals from the scroll. Since the riders were active during the Old Covenant era, my belief is that they continued to be active under the New Covenant era, the difference is that they are now subject to Christ.
1 Peter 3:21–22
21Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.
Therfore I would assert that the four horses and riders have been active under the authority of Christ since His resurrection, and that their affects have been seen on earth since that time.
I will continue with the identity of the horses as time permits.
Elders... My definition- Those that are in Christ that have proceed us in the resurrection.
Matthew 27:51-53 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Ephesians 4:8-10 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Hebrews 11:1-4 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. By faith Abel...
Our Elders that were in Christ are listed in Hebrew 11 from Abel through the prophets. Abraham is also mentioned. We know he was speaking to the rich man in Jesus parable about and to Lazarus. We can infer that Christ descended to Abraham's bosom simultaneously with the thief that repented and set the captives (Elders)free in his glorious resurrection.
Post by watchmanjim on May 1, 2017 13:49:31 GMT -6
Ok. . . . but which 24 get the thrones? Or I should say, have the thrones? As you pointed out earlier, the timing represented in these passages has to be significant. I had always thought that 12 of these 24 were the twelve apostles, and I was trying to figure out who the other 12 were--ie, sons of Israel, etc. But there were some discrepancies that made me think that was not going to be the case.
Could this 6th Seal possibly be tied in with the dragon image of Revelation 12? I see that both speak of the stars falling to the earth. If Seal 6 is when the rapture occurs, and if Revelation 12 is speaking of the rapture of the church, perhaps there is to be a great catastrophe on earth at the time of the rapture. Could this be nuclear weapons?
Revelation 6:12-14 says, "I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place."
Revelation 12:3-4 says, "Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born."
My eyes stay open through the watches of the night, that I may meditate on your promises. (Psalm 119:148)
For me - I see these as representative of OT and NT believers, not specifically 24; more like cumulative believers of the kingdom - 12 x 2(two covenants). Since when we become saved; our souls are in Heaven - I think you see us at the very beginning 'in heaven'. I HATE saying "I think", but since we are not certain and we are kicking around ideas - this is what I am seeing.
Wow, that is very interesting, RT, and I think you may be onto something.
Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
But with what you've said now, it will be even more intriguing to me to wonder what is the identity of the 24 elders.
I will get to this in more depth later on, but the short answer for now is that I believe the 24 elders are the spiritual counterpart to the earthly Jewish priesthood. Remember the heavenly tabernacle serves as the pattern for the earthly one. Therefore we should see an earthly counterpart to what John encounters when he is called up into it. There were 24 divisions of priests at the time of Christ, divided according to families. Which would serve as the earthly counterpart to the heavenly pattern, which I believe are the 24 elders.The high priest (on earth) wore a golden crown and white garments when he entered into the holy place on yom kippur/ the day of atonement. The 24 heavenly elders I believe act as a heavenly council of elders. That they cast their crowns before the throne is an act of subjection to God's authority IMO. There was also a council of elders associated with the earthly temple. (Luke 22:66, Acts 6: 12, 22:5) and they sat on thrones. We are told in Matthew 19: 28 that in the Millennial Kingdom the 12 disciples will sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. We are also told in Revelation 20:4 that thrones will be set up and those who sit on them will render judgement. So this idea is consistent with the purpose of the 24 elders, they act as a council to render judgement.
I do not believe them to be resurrected saints. In fact we are never told that those saints mentioned in Matthew that were raised from the dead were actually resurrected into heaven, it is my view that they rose from the dead like Lazarus and went on to live mortal lives. I think Hebrews might make mention of them here:
35Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection;
In addition the 24 elders are seen sitting on their thrones in the heavenly tabernacle before John sees Jesus enter as the Lamb that was slain, and therefore they could not be resurrected saints, because Jesus was the first to be resurrected into the heavenly tabernacle. If I am correct in the idea that what John sees is the initiation of the New Covenant in Christ, then it would be impossible that the 24 elders could be resurrected saints.
Consider this passage:
9And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever, 10the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11“Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.”
Here the elders give glory to God, the creator, they subject themselves to His authority
Revelation 5:8–10 (parenthesis mine) 8When He (Jesus) had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. 10“You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.”
Here after the Lamb enters you see them now falling down before Him in subjection.
You see that when Jesus died and was raised into the heavenly tabernacle He was handed the kingdom,
20which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, 23which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.
after His work is completed He will hand the kingdom back over to God the Father.
1 Corinthians 15:24
24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
Okay now for the identity of the four horsemen of the seals
I think the first horse and rider is the one that people have trouble identifying. The other three are fairly easy. But before we get into it, I want to first talk about their purpose.
The white horse and rider takes freedom from the world the red horse and rider takes peace from the world the black horse and rider takes food and sustenance from the world the ashen horse and riders take life from the world
But why do they do this? Other than the fact that they are sent out by the Lamb when He removes their seal from the scroll. That is where we need to look at the Old Testament where we see in Zechariah other horses and riders. Zechariah is confronted with a vision of three colored horses and their riders he asks the Lord what they are?
9Then I said, “My lord, what are these?” And the angel who was speaking with me said to me, “I will show you what these are.” 10And the man who was standing among the myrtle trees answered and said, “These are those whom the LORD has sent to patrol the earth.” 11So they answered the angel of the LORD who was standing among the myrtle trees and said, “We have patrolled the earth, and behold, all the earth is peaceful and quiet.”
From this passage we see that their purpose is to "patrol the earth". Later in Zechariah 6 we see more colored horses, but this time they are in teams, pulling 4 chariots. The horses were colored Red, black, white and dappled, again Zechariah asks, what they are? He gets an answer:
5The angel replied to me, “These are the four spirits of heaven, going forth after standing before the Lord of all the earth, 6with one of which the black horses are going forth to the north country; and the white ones go forth after them, while the dappled ones go forth to the south country. 7“When the strong ones went out, they were eager to go to patrol the earth.” And He said, “Go, patrol the earth.” So they patrolled the earth. 8Then He cried out to me and spoke to me saying, “See, those who are going to the land of the north have appeased My wrath in the land of the north.”
So here we see that they patrol the earth and those heading north ( the black and white horses) appease the wrath of God. That word "appease" means that they quite God's wrath.
So we can assume, that the seal horses and riders serve the same function. They are spiritual entities (spirits of heaven) that influence geopolitical events on earth. Much like the "princes" of Persia and Greece in the book of Daniel. (Daniel 10:20)
Now to the identity of that first rider, we know that he possesses a crown, and a bow and he goes out conquering. His job is to conquer. Typically this is done by nations and their leaders, hence the crown of authority.
If we look at the fourth seal and riders we get a clue as to the identity of this rider
8I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth.
You will notice that the fourth horsemen's job is to kill, they have authority over one fourth of the earth to carry out their task, but how do they accomplish it? The do it by employing the talents of the other horses and riders- with the sword, with famine and what's this..... Pestilence and wild beasts??? The word "pestilence" in the Greek means death, so they kill with sword (seal 2) , famine (seal 3), death (seal 4) and wait.....wild beasts? Could these wild beasts be related to the first horse and rider?
I say resoundingly....yes! These are not wild animals of earth, like lions and tigers and bears (oh my!). They are wild beast nations, that go out conquering other peoples and nations.
Daniel gives us great detail about the "beasts" that will rule over the Jewish people namely Babylon, Media- Persia, Greece and Rome.
Look at this passage:
21For thus says the Lord GOD, “How much more when I send My four severe judgments against Jerusalem: sword, famine, wild beasts and plague to cut off man and beast from it!
here you see the same effects of the seal horses being employed, notice that the word "beast(s)" appears twice, however they are not the same Hebrew word. The first word is "chayah" and means "live" it has with its meaning the idea that life is sustained or preserved, the second is the word "bahema" and means "mute" (beasts that cannot speak) this would be actual animals. So these "wild beasts" devour nations, in order to preserve them? Well yes isn't that what happened to Israel when they went to in Egypt during the famine and were reunited with Joseph? And also in Babylon, etc.... and even today as they are dispersed around the world? Yes these beasts will be used to also bring about death. But remember what their purpose is, to appease God's wrath. Sometimes God has to remove people in order to stay His wrath.
One day it will not be so:
27“Also the tree of the field will yield its fruit and the earth will yield its increase, and they will be secure on their land. Then they will know that I am the LORD, when I have broken the bars of their yoke and have delivered them from the hand of those who enslaved them. 28“They will no longer be a prey to the nations, and the beasts of the earth will not devour them; but they will live securely, and no one will make them afraid.
So the first horse rider is the spiritual entity that influences rulers of the earth to conquer other peoples and nations. the Second horse and rider is the spiritual entity that influences nations to war with one another the third horse and rider is the spiritual entity that influences food production and economies the fourth horse and riders take life using the effects of the first three, he rides in tandem with the others and singles out those who will perish because of the effects they bring onto the earth.
Could the first rider be responsible for influencing ISIS..... yes, Iran..... yes. Russia..... yes and on it goes. Throughout time these entities have been granted authority to patrol the earth. They influence events on earth at any given time. Since the day that Jesus was handed the scroll and He assumed the kingdom of God.
Great work! I saw 40 times in the Old Testament that the sword, famine, and pestilence were judgments of God. I had been debating with a Christian who believes in a pre-wrath rapture in a mild mannered argument because I definitely see the first seals as 'judgments'...right off the bat! He was not seeing judgment until the wrath of the the bowls.
I feel that the first horse is deception. It is the first thing Satan used and We have been warned about it all along. Deception has caused all the wars, would you not agree? God speaks in Rev 20 of one who will 'deceived the nations no more'.
Post by watchmanjim on May 1, 2017 18:58:24 GMT -6
Ok, I can see how that would all work. Most people want to see the 4 riders, or at least the first one, represent an actual live human being, but it need not be so.
Interesting that the way you have shown it, it seems that these horsemen take on some of the characteristics that certain pagan gods have been considered to have (god of war, god of crop production, god of commerce, etc.)
I John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
Post by watchmanjim on May 1, 2017 19:07:28 GMT -6
I do find it interesting that the 4 beasts (living creatures) of Revelation 4 introduce the 4 horsemen. I had never seen the 4 horsemen as God's loyal agents at the very same time as being sentient beings. I had figured that one of the following was the case:
1. The horsemen are entirely symbolic and not actually sentient beings, and simply portray the work of God in destruction and judgment 2. They are symbolic as in # 1, but represent the work of satan rather than God 3. They are actual men (world leaders) who do specific deeds and bring these different judgments on the earth through their works 4. These are nations, similar or identical to the beasts of Daniel 7, that each take their turn to do their dirty work.
But what you said works well too, and quite possibly better than any of these.
I John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
Post by watchmanjim on May 1, 2017 19:29:31 GMT -6
Linking these horsemen with the horsemen of Zechariah (and perhaps elsewhere in the scripture) brings more questions. I think I can see a clear connection. The conception I had always had about Revelation 6 was that the horsemen were a new and cataclysmic thing that would be introduced early in the Tribulation. Even if they had been active before, this would be their hour of climactic glory, far greater than anything previous. But now we are saying that this is something we have already seen, and if we compare the world scene in the 2 millennium-long church age, to the world previous to Christ, we see little difference (I think) in the atrocities and woes that were committed by these four entities or categories of woe. This lack of difference between BC operations, and AD operations, is still a bit of a mental hurdle to me, because I still have it in my mind that these 4 horsemen are introduced as a MASSIVE GAME-CHANGER. I understood in Rev 6 that John was being shown something new and amazing that would be a change from that point onward-- MASSIVE destruction all at one time, or over a very very short period of time. (ie, 3.5 years).
Rev 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. Rev 6:3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. Rev 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword. Rev 6:5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. Rev 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine. Rev 6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
The phrase I bolded in v. 6 is one I have always considered key, but what does it exactly mean? Two big questions-- 1. Does "them" refer to Death and Hell, or does "them" refer to the 4 horsemen? (or other, or both) and 2. What does "the 4th part of the earth" mean? Are we talking about geographically, topographically, politically, populationwise, etc.? And by a fourth, is it a clear-cut swath (ie, all of Africa might be 1/4 of the land area) or is it random here and there (a swath of Canada, a swath of Argentina, a swath of Angola, a swath of Australia, a selection of Pacific islands, a swath of Poland, etc.) or wildly random ("it seems, though we're not sure, that a higher percentage of the people in Laos died than in any other country, and for some reason Paraguay was hit the least hard") or is it micro-precise--"Every fourth person around the earth has been killed." Or--much more nebulous--just that during this time period, whatever that time period is, a fourth of the people perished from these things.
If this has been ongoing since the beginning of the church age, have 1/4 of the population all along the way truly been killed by these? I suppose it might be possible, especially when you take starvation and disease into account, but let's not forget that this is nothing new. I don't know if you can accurately say that 1/4 the population of the entire church age was killed off by these drastic things, though maybe. It would have to take infant mortality into account, I think. There have been times and places where 1/4 or more of the people have been wiped out, but not consistently along the way, I don't think.
I still think the nature of these horsemen is too drastic to ONLY mean that they have been at work throughout the church age, and in fact before. My gut feeling is still that 1/4 of the population will die within a very short time.
Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to killwith sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Power was given to them over the fourth part of the earth, TO KILL, the words "to kill" would imply that the power is granted specifically to the pale horse and riders whose mission is to bring about the death of people, however the sword and famine have to be prevalent first before people can die from their effects.
I tend toward the belief that the 1/4 spoken of is related to geographic area. I think these maps may support that idea, you see that war, and hunger are most prevalent in certain geographic areas. Around the Mediterranean, Africa and East Asia. Roughly 1/4 of the earth geographically? It seems to me that war, hunger, death, conquest go hand in hand.
I would say that though I see the seal horses and riders as riding throughout history, I do believe that their effects may become more intensified as the 70th week approaches.
EnochWalked: www.justice.gov/file/1286331/download "in order to enjoy the broad immunity of Section 230, an internet platform must respect public safety by ensuring its ability to identify unlawful content or activity occurring on its services." Encryption ban?
Sept 23, 2020 13:44:30 GMT -6
EnochWalked: secretnyc.co/nyc-climate-clock-union-square/ "We have approximately seven years before the consequences of climate change reaches a deadline, according to the newly programmed countdown clock in Union Square." Some of those words are correct.
Sept 23, 2020 20:05:48 GMT -6
Natalie: some people also use Hosea 4:3 Therefore the land mourns, and all who dwell in it languish, and also the beasts of the field and the birds of the heavens, and even the fish of the sea are taken away.
Sept 24, 2020 8:02:05 GMT -6
EnochWalked: I'm really enjoying Gary's latest post, which is, as usual, a great spiritual blessing. It encouraged me to study the Greek of Mark 13:32, and I found a wording I don't think I've ever seen before: biblehub.com/interlinear/mark/13-32.htm
Sept 24, 2020 19:22:35 GMT -6
EnochWalked: "Concerning now the day that or the hour no one knows not even the angels in heaven nor the Son if not the Father." Doesn't that make more sense? No one would know the day or the hour were it not for the Father revealing it to us, i.e. Revelation 1:1.
Sept 24, 2020 19:27:02 GMT -6
Boymaker2: My son's belief statement, defending grace to his catholic girlfriend, is up. Www.indefenseofgrace.com. it cost him his relationship.
Sept 24, 2020 23:28:40 GMT -6
Gary: Wow Boymaker. I will need to find a way to make this a ready resource for Roman Catholics who frequent Unsealed.
Sept 25, 2020 8:19:07 GMT -6
bernie: Thanks Boymaker, I was raised Catholic, and it looks like a great resource for sharing with Catholics. I've saved a link to it on my desktop to refer to.
Sept 25, 2020 10:20:14 GMT -6
james: bernie: Vigano appears to be one of the few good ones. He's repeatedly stepped on toes and spoken out about the actions of the RCC and the pope. Seems like he knows what's going on behind the scenes like we do!
Sept 25, 2020 20:43:47 GMT -6
nana: My apologies to those who left notifications, I can't remember how to get back to them if they are from different threads. Please don't think I am being rude.
Sept 26, 2020 5:55:11 GMT -6