A revised view of the pretrib rapture

I can't remember where I saw it - who/where was the post of the SNL song by Harry Styles?

BrazenLaver, that makes sense about the 24 elders. What a thought that eventually we may all take a turn in that position for we are a kingdom of priests.

Blessed by his holy name...He is my hero, my savior and my glorious King; He is my redeemer forever and ever. Hallelujah!


Rev.4:10-11 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

We are told that we will judge the angels (1 Cor 6:3) and we will rule with Christ. It is an awesome thought!

Okay I don't want to truncate the conversation, but I would like to move on with my explanation of the seals.

On to seal 5 


John sees the souls of those martyred for their faith "under the altar", let's take this bit first.

So what altar is John looking at? That would be the altar of incense, this altar serves as the pattern for the altar of incense in the temple:

I shared this idea in the other thread, that these souls (of the righteous dead) reside within a level of heaven under the throne room of the heavenly tabernacle, I believe within the crystal sea, where paradise is. The golden altar of incense acts as an intercom of sorts, with the smoke rising off it, conveying the prayers of those within paradise. It is important to note that John sees them as "souls" of the dead, they have not been regenerated when he first sees them.  Their "prayer" is heard, they are asking God how long until avenges them. More on that in a moment. But what happens next is very curious, John sees them receive a white robe. 

That word "white" in the Greek means "brilliant white light". They are not clothed in ordinary robes, these robes shine!  

Often throughout the New Testament we see passages that tell us about angels appearing in white shining garments to people on earth. To the two Mary's at the tomb in Matthew 28, , Mary when she entered the tomb in John 20, at the ascension in Acts 1, and to Cornelius in Acts 10:30. We also see the same type of raiment worn by those who reside within the heavenly tabernacle, the 24 elders, the multitudes in Rev. 7, the seven angels who carry the seven bowls in Rev 15, and also the bride of the lamb in Rev 19:

The word "bright" in the Greek has the same meaning as the word for "white". The finest linen, bright and clean would be white in color.  This garment we are told is their righteousness. White shining garments of light are the heavenly raiment, worn by all who enter into or reside in the heavenly holy place, where only the righteous can enter. Those martyrs who cry out at the opening of the fifth seal are given this raiment.

We also see that when Jesus was transfigured that He began to shine, the three disciples were given a glimpse of the glorified Christ:


I believe what John witnesses is the resurrection of the dead in Christ. That he only sees martyrs does not mean that others are not resurrected with them, it is only the martyrs who cry out for vengeance, that was the focus for John. 

cont'd...

5th seal cont'd...

SO let's look at the cry of these martyred souls


They are asking God to avenge them . We know that that is one of the purposes of the 70th week:

Then after they are given their robes (resurrected to receive their regenerated glorified body) they are told to rest a bit longer, until :


Many look at these martyrs and claim that they are in fact the tribulation saints, but that is not what I see. I believe them to be those who are in Christ who have been martyred for their faith in Him throughout the church age. There is nothing in the passage that would indicate that these are those martyred during the tribulation, whereas later John describes those tribulation saints raised to life in clear terms as we shall see in a moment. These fifth seal martyrs are told to wait until their number is completed, their fellow servants and brethren die like they did, as martyrs. How can they be the tribulation saints and also be told that others will die like them? If they were the martyrs from the tribulation then who would follow them to complete their number, wouldn't their number already be completed?

We can see when this completion takes place later in the Revelation when the angel of the waters proclaims how the Lord has exacted His vengeance:

Every time we hear or see something connected to the altar it is concerning an event that is connected to the completion of the martyrs and the exaction of God's vengeance on those who are responsible for their blood.

Revelation 8, just before the trumpets are sounded an angel takes incense from the altar in a censer and adds to it fire and throws it down to earth
Revelation 9, at the sound of the sixth trumpet a voice rises off the altar calling for the release of the four angels bound at the Euphrates, these go on to kill 1/3 of mankind, I                     think that these killed are the tribulation saints, those not killed do not repent. (Laying the foundation for the completion of the martyrs)
Revelation 14, the angel who has power over fire comes out from the altar, calling for the reaper to reap the wicked. (Armageddon)

After this reaping of the wicked, we see in chapter 15;

This is the resurrection of the tribulation saints, which corresponds and is the same event spoken of in Revelation 20:4, their number is now completed. We see here that there is no question that they are those who died as martyrs during the 70th week. The same is true for the passage in Rev. 20. 

Before the reaping we see an angel proclaiming doom for those who worship the beast and take his number. We are told that they will suffer the wrath of God. Then we hear a voice from heaven saying blessed are those who die in the Lord from now on:


What helps those who face death in Christ, persevere? Knowing that they will have rest from their labors, because their deeds are righteous and are what causes them to be clothed in those glorified white robes.  The fifth seal martyrs are told to continue resting, until their number is completed, they entered into their rest when they died and remained souls, and continue to rest in their glorified state while the events of the tribulation unfold and now these others will follow them and die as they did for the testimony of Christ complete their number. Their souls will enter into the place under the altar, until they are resurrected  to join the other saints in the heavenly tabernacle, at the end of the 70th week.