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Post by rt on Jan 12, 2019 9:51:00 GMT -6
I find it interesting that in Revelation 12 1/3 of the stars of heaven are thrown to earth by the tail of the dragon, and also that the trumpets effect 1/3 of earth, sea, trees, grass, sea life, ships, fresh waters, sunlight, moonlight, and 1/3 of mankind are killed. Is there a correlation? Why is it specifically 1/3? Hm....?
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Post by rt on Jan 12, 2019 10:46:05 GMT -6
Hello again venge , In response to your post, by the way thanks for engaging in the discussion!  Yes I agree that the word "stars" can be interpreted as you point out. However in the context the "him" is said to fall from "heaven" and is given the key of the bottomless pit. Who gives "him" the key? Perhaps we can get a clue from this passage: How could a human being first of all be handed the keys to the abyss and secondly how could he open it? Who do you claim this "star" is? Actually I am not sure you are correct, Jesus did not say that Satan was cast from heaven right then at that moment, only that he watched Him fall from heaven like lightning, could He have seen this as a future event? An event that would be accomplished when the testimony of future believers is complete at the "fullness of the gentiles"?. Do you believe that Revelation 12:9-12 is an event from the past? It seems to me that the dragon was accusing the brethren (before God, presumably in heaven) yet these "brethren" or fellow believers, overcame because of Christ's redemptive power. Logically this would not fit your assumption, if indeed it is your assumption. If Satan was cast out before Christ shed His blood on the cross in Luke 10. Then how is it that these are accused by the dragon before God, after the Lamb shed His blood? I can find no other New Testament passage that talks of Satan being cast from heaven while at God's right hand, can you direct me to one if I have missed it? Unless you refer to this passage:I agree that all authority and rule was passed from the Father to the Son, but that doesn't mean that Satan isn't granted the continued ability to accuse the brethren for a time. He certainly could do so before the cross as he did against Job, so there is precedent. We share in Christ's authority to subject these powers: Isn't it true according to this passage that we wage a battle against these heavenly powers? If Satan and his angels were sequestered to earth back then, why is it that we are told that there are spiritual forces of darkness and wickedness in the heavenly places and not just worldly ones? Anyway, I got a little carried away there, my point remains, that the "stars" that fall may indeed symbolize the dragon and his angels according to Revelation 12. |
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Post by rt on Jan 12, 2019 11:38:58 GMT -6
Continued venge I was not making the claim that the "mountain" would be an asteroid, I was making the claim that it could look like something John describes to people on earth. Though I would not be dogmatic on that point. It may be very well represent a kingdom that is cast down, but I would say if it represents a kingdom it is a spiritual one- Satan's kingdom, look where we find the Dragon after being thrown down: standing on the beach by the sea (Rev 13:1), Is there a visible Dragon that will stand on the seashore for all to see? And what do we see rising out of the sea immediately thereafter: the beast rising from the sea (Rev 13:2). Is there a physical beast that rises from the waters? Whatever it is that happens, the reaction of those on earth is to worship the dragon and the beast, who is given a mouth (AKA the Antichrist). That "spiritual" kingdom will have an earthly counterpart, a physical kingdom made up of real kings and people. Satan and his angles are more than just spiritual ethereal entities, they are physical beings that exist in a spiritual dimension that we at this time cannot see. Since there is a very real physical effect on earth that results from the sounding of the trumpets, I believe there will be some kind of very real physical cause that will be seen by those on earth. What exactly that looks like, who can say? We can only look to John's description for clues. Could the fallen angels be seen by those on earth? I don't know for sure, though some claim that the Nephilim will show themselves. Could some burning mountain like object fall from the sky? I do not know. But I do believe that there will be some physical event that causes these changes over 1/3 of the things on earth and in the heavens. When spiritual events of this magnitude are described in scripture, there is almost always an earthly counterpart that accompanies them. Think about Ezekiel (Ezekiel 9) and the man with the writing case, and the six destroyers (spiritual angelic beings) who were sent to destroy those who din't have the mark on them. The ones on earth actually doing the killing were the Babylonians, the earthly counterpart to the spiritual powers of influence. Satan's kingdom has an earthly counterpart and as I ponder this idea I wonder if perhaps these cataclysmic events might be caused by events brought about by the beast kingdom? It would have to exist in some form before the rapture. Could a great war be the cause? Nuclear missiles, chemical warfare...etc?. In fact it does seem indicated by the idea that one of the beast's heads has a fatal would of war, but is revived. Hm... this makes me wonder..... When no more room is found in heaven for the dragon and his angels, does the spiritual reality co mingle with the physical? Hmm..... I do not have the definite answer, just observing the clues left for us in scripture. I will have to think more on this.... Thanks again for the lively discussion. I appreciate your comments and insights. |
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Post by venge on Jan 12, 2019 13:45:04 GMT -6
Yes I agree that the word "stars" can be interpreted as you point out. However in the context the "him" is said to fall from "heaven" and is given the key of the bottomless pit. Who gives "him" the key? Perhaps we can get a clue from this passage: How could a human being first of all be handed the keys to the abyss and secondly how could he open it? Who do you claim this "star" is? Actually I am not sure you are correct, Jesus did not say that Satan was cast from heaven right then at that moment, only that he watched Him fall from heaven like lightning, could He have seen this as a future event? An event that would be accomplished when the testimony of future believers is complete at the "fullness of the gentiles"?. Do you believe that Revelation 12:9-12 is an event from the past? It seems to me that the dragon was accusing the brethren (before God, presumably in heaven) yet these "brethren" or fellow believers, overcame because of Christ's redemptive power. Logically this would not fit your assumption, if indeed it is your assumption. If Satan was cast out before Christ shed His blood on the cross in Luke 10. Then how is it that these are accused by the dragon before God, after the Lamb shed His blood? I can find no other New Testament passage that talks of Satan being cast from heaven while at God's right hand, can you direct me to one if I have missed it? Unless you refer to this passage:I agree that all authority and rule was passed from the Father to the Son, but that doesn't mean that Satan isn't granted the continued ability to accuse the brethren for a time. He certainly could do so before the cross as he did against Job, so there is precedent. We share in Christ's authority to subject these powers: Isn't it true according to this passage that we wage a battle against these heavenly powers? If Satan and his angels were sequestered to earth back then, why is it that we are told that there are spiritual forces of darkness and wickedness in the heavenly places and not just worldly ones? Anyway, I got a little carried away there, my point remains, that the "stars" that fall may indeed symbolize the dragon and his angels according to Revelation 12. RT, I will post your comments in quotes. A "him" that has fallen to earth can be from heaven as that is not literal. You had just agreed that angelos can be a man. A man as a star can fall back to earth (not literally) and given a key. Is the key literal? google "pit bible". Look at every single verse that pops up and its contents. Who goes into the pit, who comes out. Try Abyss, Sheol and others alike. The False prophet (The beast of the earth) is one possibility. Someone raised up but fallen. Someone full of pride. Someone that wishes to ascend his throne above God's in heaven. Someone to be like the Most High. This is a person that can open the pit. The opening of the pit being none other than allowing the contents of what is deemed to fall into the pit to be out of it. Namely, wicked men. Yes. John 12:31-33 31Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33This he said, signifying what death he should die. As well as the verses I have already linked to from the previous post showing Christ receiving all power and authority. Rev 5:12-13 12Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. 13And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever His death on the cross caused Satan to be cast out as he assumed all power and authority removing the power Satan had as holder of death. Regarding battling heavenly powers, these heavenly powers are spiritual battles. Not physical battles within heaven. These spiritual battles happen right here on earth with our souls. That is why Rev 12 said: Believers after Christ was raised on his death now overcame Satan because of his shed blood. And the martyrs of Christ loved not their own lives unto death. That is why the following verse stated the devil has come down to you....Christ is not sitting at the right hand of God. Satan could not be cast down TILL Christ died as per this verse and the others I showed for support. |
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Post by venge on Jan 12, 2019 14:03:54 GMT -6
It will look like other kingdoms that existed. Babylon, Persia, Greece etc...Satan's influence is there but to the untrained eye, it just looks like another kingdom full of politics. The very real physical cause that you mentioned will be the military, the people invading, murder and takeover. I do too. Hatred, Fascism, Money etc...it will drive it war. I would say yes and No. Yes, the beast kingdom is responsible and has a earthly counterpart but also the worlds wickedness plays a big part. The beast has 7 heads and all the heads are slain but the nations out of them have been able to live on. The revival of the 8th head which is of the 7 is none other than the revival of 3 parts of Daniel's statue to make the 4th part. You are correct saying the head had a fatal wound of war, for the end of the war is what slain the head. But which war slain the head that was thought to be dead yet will live again? And which head was slain before John wrote Revelation before Rome, the 6th head? =P As you have stated, I enjoy the talk RT. There is always plenty to think about. |
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Post by boraddict on Jan 12, 2019 20:05:49 GMT -6
Okay, look at Rev. 9:1 in chiasmus form as follows:
"And the fifth angel sounded,
and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth:
and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
Secondly, consider that the beast arose from the bottomless pit (v. 17:8).
That is, the beast arises from mankind to rule the earth.
Thus, the bottomless pit is mankind.
Third, John was given the key of death and hell (v. 1:18).
Hell and death are at the fourth horseman (v. 6:8).
Thus, death and hell are the beast and false prophet.
Therefore, John was given the keys (authority) over the beast (death) and hell (the false prophet) who arise out of the bottomless pit of mankind.
Johns specific authority begins when the star (the beast) is born upon the earth. It is then that he functions as the 5th angel as follows:
And the fifth angel (John) sounded,
and I saw a star (the beast) fall from heaven unto the earth:
and to him (John) was (at v. 1:18) given the key of the bottomless pit.
As you can see the angel has the key; and the fallen star does not.
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Post by rt on Jan 13, 2019 12:08:45 GMT -6
Okay, look at Rev. 9:1 in chiasmus form as follows: "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. Secondly, consider that the beast arose from the bottomless pit (v. 17:8). That is, the beast arises from mankind to rule the earth. Thus, the bottomless pit is mankind. Third, John was given the key of death and hell (v. 1:18). Hell and death are at the fourth horseman (v. 6:8). Thus, death and hell are the beast and false prophet. Therefore, John was given the keys (authority) over the beast (death) and hell (the false prophet) who arise out of the bottomless pit of mankind. Johns specific authority begins when the star (the beast) is born upon the earth. It is then that he functions as the 5th angel as follows: And the fifth angel (John) sounded, and I saw a star (the beast) fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him (John) was (at v. 1:18) given the key of the bottomless pit. As you can see the angel has the key; and the fallen star does not. I do not agree with this. John is not given the key, the passage clearly indicates that it is Jesus who holds the keys, they are never transferred to John. Christ is the first and last, He is the living one who died but now is alive forevermore. This is not talking about John. Jesus is describing Himself to John. This is a "star" that fell from heaven to earth. John did not "fall" from heaven. The key is given to "him"- the star that fell, not to John. The star that receives the key is most likely the same star that John described earlier here: This would be in keeping with the context of what is happening and John's description. He sees a great star fall, and then he sees a star that fell being given the key. That star has a name -Wormwood, not John. What does the key open? The bottomless pit, the abyss. The key opens it and releases smoke and locusts who torment those who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads, for five months. This is not John releasing these locusts, but an angelic being. Sorry, I don't mean to sound harsh or critical, but I just cannot at all agree with what you are claiming. |
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Post by rt on Jan 13, 2019 12:39:24 GMT -6
Hi venge So when I look at this passage: I see that Jesus is saying that the ruler of this world will be cast out. Cast out from where? It doesn't say heaven, the implication is that he will be cast out from ruling the world. We know that this was not accomplished with Christ's death and resurrection, but will be accomplished here: Jesus wasn't proclaiming that these events would take place "right now" at that time. He was proclaiming that because of what was about to happen, His death and resurrection, that these events could now be accomplished (not immediately). His death and resurrection would make it possible to fulfill. This is depicted in the Lamb receiving the scroll and removing the seals. I will however concede that the fall of Satan and his angels in Rev 12 could have at least partially been fulfilled in the past. Clearly verses 3 and 4 of chapter 12 show the original fall of satan and a third of the angels. Since it is the dragon's tail that casts the angels to earth. And it may even be that Satan was barred from the throne room of God when Jesus took His seat on the throne. However I still believe that the "war" that happens between Satan and his angels and Micheal and his angels is still future. see if you can follow me here There are three woes associated with the final three trumpets Presumably this woe refers to trumpet 5- which is the opening of the pit and the release of the tormenting locusts This would be associated with trumpet 6- which releases the angels so that they can kill 1/3 of mankind along with the ministry and death of the two witnesses. This is associated with the 7th trumpet, the great signs in heaven and the angelic war in heaven. Three woes associated with each of the three trumpets. So at least IMO this part of the dragon tale (pun intended) has to be yet future, because this woe is associated with the sounding of the 7th trumpet which is yet future. We may just have to agree to disagree on this one. Ultimately there really is no way for us to know for certain what events will look like to the people on earth at that time. We know the effects to the earth and knowing that sends chills up my spine. It will certainly be very difficult for those who inhabit the earth. More reason to be a witness and testimony to those around us. Let our light shine. God bless |
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Post by venge on Jan 13, 2019 17:21:06 GMT -6
You are correct, it doesn't say but it is eluded to. The fact remains that Satan is cast out. No where else does it say this but this verse and Revelation says he is cast out as well. If Satan was on the earth, how would we interpret cast out? When your cast out, your cast out of something you were in previously. He is not cast out of the earth as he still works here. He is not cast out of hell as he is not there yet. The only logical point to be cast out of is heaven where Christ went to after his death and as such, when he inherited all things, Satan was removed. Is this said, no. It is eluded to and atm, the only way I can make sense of it. I agree. Again, the stars that care casted to earth may not be angels but men. Only a careful study can determine that. It has been understood as angelic beings but that doesn't mean that interpretation is correct. Because of the word angelos is difficult to understand, I cannot place 100% certainty on it as stars have been shown to be men as well as angels in scripture. Also, the tail of the dragon is not literal as the dragon isn't literal. I encourage you to do a search on what a "tail" is. Look up "head" and "tail" in the bible. It will help discover why a tail can remove stars. I don't think the war has that big of a placement that I can tell in relation to the things we study. It exists, but is outside our realm. I am not sure why you linked Rev 12 with the 7th trumpet. The 7th trumpet below shows: It shows Christ starting his reign. The 7th Trumpet obviously shows that what comes next is the destruction of the wicked. This is because now, he must put all enemies under his footstool per 1 Cor 15:25 But I understand the issue. I acknowledge there is a break between Rev 12:5 and 12:6. It appears verse 5 is past. But verse 6 then jumps to future. Verses 7-12 seem to happen between verses 5-6. This is because in verse 14, it is going back to verse 6. And everything in verses 7-12 lead up to the 1260 day, 42 month, time, times and a half of time moment. When we look at verse 11, Who has overcome Satan when he fell to earth to attack man? After Christ died and ascended, who were believers who were persecuted? Paul, Peter, James, Hippolytus, Ignatius, Bartholomew, Clement, Mark, Andrew, Jude, Thomas, Polycarp, Justin Martyr...how about today. Christians in China, Pakistan, Russia, the entire middle east. All of these that died and loved not their lives unto death overcame Satan by the blood of the lamb. All of them martyrs for Christ. They will be raised. If Satan was not cast down, then all the martyrs thus far....did they not overcome Satan? Did they not love their lives even unto death? In ref: to the tail. Why did God say this in Deut 28:13 Or Isa 9:14-15 Notice 2 parts. Head = Branch but Tail=rush. One is good and the other wicked. How about Isa 9:15 |
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Post by boraddict on Jan 14, 2019 8:37:58 GMT -6
I had not noticed that the NIV includes an additional "I" in Rev. 1:18 whereas the King James does not. Thus, the NIV is correct in saying that Lord Jesus has the key of death since he did in fact conquer death, and he has the key of hell since he is in fact salvation from hell. However, the King James by not having the "I" allows for an additional metaphorical application such that John is being given the key over death and hell as in the beast (death) and false prophet (hell). This metaphorical application is supported by Verse 14:18 in that the angel giving the command has authority over the angel with the sickle (v. 14:17). It is after that command is given that the angel with the sickle casts the grapes into the wine press (vv. 14:19-20). That is, one angel, the one from the altar, commands the angel with the sickle. This angel with the sickle has come from the temple that is Christ (v. 21:22). Thus, the angel from the altar is Christ; and the angel from Christ is either his angel of Verse 1:1 or John from that same verse.
It follows that the angel coming down from heaven in Verse 20:1 is either Christ, the angel of Verse 1:1, or John. Since Verse 14:17-18 shows a delegated authority from one to another, then it means that a metaphorical application (v. 1:18) wherein John is delegated authority over the beast and false prophet is plausible. Especially when considering Chapter 19 wherein Christ makes is move to attack (vv. 19:11-16) followed by an angel (v. 19:17) calling for Christ's army to gather. It is this army that defeats the beast and casts them into the fire (vv. 19:19-20). So, who is the angel that calls the army of God to gather. It is either the angel of Verse 1:1 or John. I propose that both are involved and the angel of Verse 1:1 does in fact have authority over John as demonstrated in Verses 10:8-11:2.
Thus, there is a line of authority from Christ, to his angel, to John. Since Christ is going to cast Satan in chains for 1,000 years, then it is reasonable that he will use his servants, the angel and John in this venture. Therefore, the metaphorical application of Rev. 1:18 from the King James is correct as is the literal application of the verse from the NIV.
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Post by rt on Jan 14, 2019 15:34:36 GMT -6
There is a danger in interpreting things allegorically, the danger being that any meaning can be applied. I tend to see things literally when it comes to scripture unless the metaphor is therein defined. That doesn't mean there isn't a metaphorical meaning, but if I choose to go down that path I look to scripture itself and context for clues. To me who the fallen star is or what it represents isn't the focus, what the burning mountain may or may not represent isn't what is important. I can make educated guesses but I honestly cannot be definitive. The important bits are definitive, the affects they have on the earth are given, they IMO are not allegorical but factual. Again that is the danger, start allegorizing one part and then you go down that path to allegorize more and more until it fits into whatever interpretation you choose. I am not saying anyone here is doing so, just giving a word of caution. Let each one decide for themselves.
I think I have said all I can on this particular subject. Again thanks for the lively and thought provoking discussion- feel free to carry on!
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Post by venge on Jan 15, 2019 8:55:51 GMT -6
There is a danger in interpreting things allegorically, the danger being that any meaning can be applied. I tend to see things literally when it comes to scripture unless the metaphor is therein defined. That doesn't mean there isn't a metaphorical meaning, but if I choose to go down that path I look to scripture itself and context for clues. To me who the fallen star is or what it represents isn't the focus, what the burning mountain may or may not represent isn't what is important. I can make educated guesses but I honestly cannot be definitive. The important bits are definitive, the affects they have on the earth are given, they IMO are not allegorical but factual. Again that is the danger, start allegorizing one part and then you go down that path to allegorize more and more until it fits into whatever interpretation you choose. I am not saying anyone here is doing so, just giving a word of caution. Let each one decide for themselves. I think I have said all I can on this particular subject. Again thanks for the lively and thought provoking discussion- feel free to carry on! I agree that one must be careful in any interpretation. But you stated “the important bits are definitive,.....they IMO are not allegorical but factual.” If you take 1/3rd ship destroyed as literal, then you take the mountain literal. If you take all green grass literal, you take 1/3rd trees literal. We cannot choose the end bits without the product. You mentioned the danger of over allegorizing. Now we can mention the danger over being overly literal. If we take everything literal, and you interpret it incorrect, what issues can and will arise? If a teacher teaches incorrectly, what does that do to a student? The dragon cast forth water out of his mouth and the earth stops it. It is not defined in the text from an angel as allegorical. From your position, all of this should then be literal. Can you please explain that to me? I look at scripture and it is explained in OT passages how it was understood. God is always the same is he not? The writings are understood the same way. Many non believers are aware of some apocalypse. When it comes, that person might say, the 4 horseman, the blood moon, maybe much death, the rapture, poisoned water, a mountain falling, destruction of food and water, trees etc... If that is how it literally plays out, when it happens they will see it and know it. But the Bible says no one will know it when it comes. Life goes on showing nothing out of the ordinary has happened yet. Armageddon happens later in the bowls. Why do the nations go to battle as if everything preceding it (trumpets etc) happened literally as written? Has not 1 of them watched a movie, read a book, saw a tweet or whatever of all the things that happen before it to know God is going to destroy them? Yet they go on as if it’s normal. In Daniels statue, each kingdom was literal. Each attacked Israel with people. Can we find in any of these, the sun and moon darkening? Yes. Locusts as armies? Yes Stars/figs/olives falling to earth? Yes Mourning? Yes Why do we not look at scripture to understand text that is already shown it’s interpretation in similar events in the Bible to understand the meaning? |
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Post by rt on Jan 17, 2019 12:55:22 GMT -6
(Read more: board.unsealed.org/thread/133/revised-view-pretrib-rapture?page=21#ixzz5ctL7k2yH)Hello venge You do make some valid points, though I do not believe that it is as cut and dry as you make it. I do think it is possible to see some things as metaphor and others as factual. John is very specific about these effects on real things that exist on earth, trees, grass, ships, water, marine life, moonlight, sunlight. These are things that exist in our reality. What would ships represent metaphorically, and grass and fresh water sources? It is not at all hard to understand how spiritual powers can affect events on earth. Again all we have to do is look at Ezekiel. Those "men" with their weapons were spiritual in nature, angels with a purpose. Their purpose was to destroy men on earth. Did they do this with their own physical bodies ? No they acted to influence the Babylonians to accomplish this. We also see the "princes" in Daniel, how the angel battled with them, the "princes" of Persia and Greece. We know that Persia and Greece were named as two of the nations of Nebuchadnezzar's dream of the statue, and later Daniel's vision of the four beasts, as you said- real nations. These Angelic princes influenced the men on earth from these nations they represented. They themselves did not accomplish the action on earth, but they had spiritual power over the men that did. So it is not illogical to claim that in the same way the "fallen stars" of the Revelation can influence men on earth to accomplish what John is witnessing in the destruction of 1/3 of these things on earth (trees, grass, ships, water, marine life, moonlight, sunlight...) My point is that these "stars" in Revelation that fall, may influence nations on earth to accomplish the affects that John describes. Which is why people on earth will not recognize what is happening, they will not see the spiritual connection as Daniel and Ezekiel did. |
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Post by venge on Jan 19, 2019 9:43:22 GMT -6
Hello RT
In ref. To trees, grass, waters...all of that is described multiple times in various scripture. I can post it here if you wish. Trees and grass describe flesh ie. People. Surely you understand living waters and waters that are full of gall. Bitterness, wormwood not a healthy life.
Why I mentioned what Angelos was, many assumed the text referenced meteorites or asteroids which are not only not described as that but do not follow its definition. But angelos being messangers of God are men and the heavenly Cherubs/Seraphs.
We must be careful in study, that is why I brought it up. As stated previously, all 12 leaders of the 12 tribes were angelos. King David is described multiple times like angelos. Christ as angelos. Daniel mentions men like angelos.
If I didn’t make it clear previously, let me say this: I only look at how Jewish language use in scripture explained their thoughts. I don’t try to make things fit. I don’t guess at the prophecies. I see grass. I notice scripture mentions grass many times as flesh. I use it as a tool understanding God’s word. Obviously there is literal grass in the Bible and figurative grass. Because there are 2, it is best to recognize its use and to understand when it is applied. I cannot discount anything...anything in God’s word.
I very much enjoy your hard work writing this all up. It caused me to think on a few things. I enjoy that very much. We are to edify and you’ve done that here.
In reference to ships. I have notes at home, I’d have to post later. I’m at work atm. 😩
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Post by rt on Jan 24, 2019 15:50:50 GMT -6
vengeThank you for your response, as I said at this point we may just have to agree to disagree. I appreciate you sharing your views and observations, iron sharpens iron as scripture says, we learn from each other! God bless you brother!
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