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Post by rt on Jan 24, 2019 16:07:56 GMT -6
I have been conducting a study of the Olivet discourse lately and find this passage interesting
According to the parallel account in Luke, we see that people of earth will be perplexed and dismayed at the roaring of the sea and waves, which seems to be a response to the signs in the sun, moon and stars. This seems to be related to signs in the actual sun moon and stars, not anything figurative, and that these signs have some kind of effect on the sea, creating waves that would dismay and perplex, so not your average storm maybe a tsunami or many of them? (not sure)
But also we see men fainting from fear, and from the expectation of things that are coming upon the world- these things seem to come as a result of the powers of heavens being shaken. This is a much stronger response than dismay and perplexity. These are men fainting, which can either mean to pass out or die in fear, because of what they expect to come as a result of the powers of the heavens being shaken.
From my very limited research into the Greek language used here, it is implied that these powers of heaven, may be supernatural powers, again I am not sure, maybe someone with better understanding of the language could chime in here.
Wondering what you all think about this, could there be some connection to the trumpets?
I find it fascinating, even though I can't completely wrap my brain around it.
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Post by klb on Jan 24, 2019 17:33:53 GMT -6
Very interesting rt - especially that word, expectation. "A strong belief that something will happen." |
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Post by venge on Jan 25, 2019 15:43:49 GMT -6
venge Thank you for your response, as I said at this point we may just have to agree to disagree. I appreciate you sharing your views and observations, iron sharpens iron as scripture says, we learn from each other! God bless you brother! It is not a problem RT. We are both here for exchange as you said to learn. Can you please comment what you think this entails in the following verse to your own understanding. The "it" that waxes great is the little horn. The 11th horn by number that comes after the 10 previous ones to which he then uproots 3. This same horn is the one that speaks blasphemies against God and the saints. How does a man such as this cast some of the heavenly host to the ground? Also, how does he cast down stars from heaven to earth "even as a fig tree casts her untimely figs" and then he stomps on them. Can a man, such as myself, cast down stars from heaven to earth and stomp on them? The text say yes. How do you describe the sentence? |
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Post by rt on Jan 25, 2019 18:46:42 GMT -6
Hi venge , Sure no problem, I don't even have to think to much about this one because it is already interpreted for us So yes it is fairly obvious that in this passage the "host" are the "holy people". Here in Daniel we have obvious analogy which is interpreted for us. But in the Revelation it isn't as obvious. It could be as you claim, but it might not be. It could be factual, actual things falling from the sky, that do the damage described, literally. It could also be spiritual in nature having earthly counterparts. None of us can say definitively for certain what exactly is going on. We do know that chapter 12 of the revelation seems to track events that have occurred up until that point. There we see that there are two sets of stars- the 12 stars that make up the "crown" of the woman in the sign described by John. These would relate to the tribes of Israel IMO. Then you have the third of the stars that are thrown to earth by the tail of the dragon, these are referred to as "stars of heaven". In Revelation 8:10 we see wormwood- a great star fall from heaven. Then in Revelation 9:1 a star from heaven, that had fallen to earth is given the key to the bottomless pit. If we understand the 1/3 of stars to be spiritual entities (angels) then it is certainly possible that the "star" of chapter 8 and 9 could be an angel and not a man. Just because we see one thing in Daniel, does not mean that it is interpreted the same in the Revelation. It could be, I am not saying it can't. I am just saying that there are different ways of looking at it. The language of Revelation 9 in particular is indicative of spiritual beings. Someone or something is given a key to open the bottomless pit, out of it come locusts, not your natural kind, but something that appears supernatural in nature. They are granted authority to torment those who do not have the seal of God on their forehead. They look like battle horses with golden crowns and have faces of men, hair like women and teeth like lions. They have wings and stinging tails and the king over them is the angel of the abyss- Abaddon or Appolyon. These are demonic creatures. Maybe this is why Luke 21 says that men faint from fear because of what is coming on the earth??? Another point is that if we are to follow with Daniel's interpretation,meaning that the hosts of heaven = the stars of heaven = the holy people. Then how does that match the stars we see associated with the trumpets in the Revelation? These stars aren't being destroyed by the Antichrist, they aren't the holy people, they are taking part in the destroying. So to me it doesn't seem to fit. |
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Post by venge on Jan 26, 2019 19:04:47 GMT -6
Hi venge , Sure no problem, I don't even have to think to much about this one because it is already interpreted for us So yes it is fairly obvious that in this passage the "host" are the "holy people". Here in Daniel we have obvious analogy which is interpreted for us. But in the Revelation it isn't as obvious. It could be as you claim, but it might not be. It could be factual, actual things falling from the sky, that do the damage described, literally. It could also be spiritual in nature having earthly counterparts. None of us can say definitively for certain what exactly is going on. We do know that chapter 12 of the revelation seems to track events that have occurred up until that point. There we see that there are two sets of stars- the 12 stars that make up the "crown" of the woman in the sign described by John. These would relate to the tribes of Israel IMO. Then you have the third of the stars that are thrown to earth by the tail of the dragon, these are referred to as "stars of heaven". In Revelation 8:10 we see wormwood- a great star fall from heaven. Then in Revelation 9:1 a star from heaven, that had fallen to earth is given the key to the bottomless pit. If we understand the 1/3 of stars to be spiritual entities (angels) then it is certainly possible that the "star" of chapter 8 and 9 could be an angel and not a man. Just because we see one thing in Daniel, does not mean that it is interpreted the same in the Revelation. It could be, I am not saying it can't. I am just saying that there are different ways of looking at it. The language of Revelation 9 in particular is indicative of spiritual beings. Someone or something is given a key to open the bottomless pit, out of it come locusts, not your natural kind, but something that appears supernatural in nature. They are granted authority to torment those who do not have the seal of God on their forehead. They look like battle horses with golden crowns and have faces of men, hair like women and teeth like lions. They have wings and stinging tails and the king over them is the angel of the abyss- Abaddon or Appolyon. These are demonic creatures. Maybe this is why Luke 21 says that men faint from fear because of what is coming on the earth??? Another point is that if we are to follow with Daniel's interpretation,meaning that the hosts of heaven = the stars of heaven = the holy people. Then how does that match the stars we see associated with the trumpets in the Revelation? These stars aren't being destroyed by the Antichrist, they aren't the holy people, they are taking part in the destroying. So to me it doesn't seem to fit. I highlighted the matter above to focus on that for a moment. You said afterwards, I am guessing you are referring to the star from heaven that falls and is given a key and the star called wormwood that causes bitterness? Not all stars are holy people. Was the king of Babylon a holy person? He is mentioned as a bright star in Isaiah 14. Back to holy people. Have you given it any thought that the 6th seal is mourning. The sun is blackened, the moon is darkened, the heavens shed no light...IF the stars are holy people here, IF, then them falling to the ground would be a case for mourning would it not assuming that is the case. Even the world for sackcloth that the sun turns into is: |
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Post by boraddict on Jan 26, 2019 20:05:41 GMT -6
Hi venge , Sure no problem, I don't even have to think to much about this one because it is already interpreted for us So yes it is fairly obvious that in this passage the "host" are the "holy people". Here in Daniel we have obvious analogy which is interpreted for us. But in the Revelation it isn't as obvious. It could be as you claim, but it might not be. It could be factual, actual things falling from the sky, that do the damage described, literally. It could also be spiritual in nature having earthly counterparts. None of us can say definitively for certain what exactly is going on. We do know that chapter 12 of the revelation seems to track events that have occurred up until that point. There we see that there are two sets of stars- the 12 stars that make up the "crown" of the woman in the sign described by John. These would relate to the tribes of Israel IMO. Then you have the third of the stars that are thrown to earth by the tail of the dragon, these are referred to as "stars of heaven". In Revelation 8:10 we see wormwood- a great star fall from heaven. Then in Revelation 9:1 a star from heaven, that had fallen to earth is given the key to the bottomless pit. If we understand the 1/3 of stars to be spiritual entities (angels) then it is certainly possible that the "star" of chapter 8 and 9 could be an angel and not a man. Just because we see one thing in Daniel, does not mean that it is interpreted the same in the Revelation. It could be, I am not saying it can't. I am just saying that there are different ways of looking at it. The language of Revelation 9 in particular is indicative of spiritual beings. Someone or something is given a key to open the bottomless pit, out of it come locusts, not your natural kind, but something that appears supernatural in nature. They are granted authority to torment those who do not have the seal of God on their forehead. They look like battle horses with golden crowns and have faces of men, hair like women and teeth like lions. They have wings and stinging tails and the king over them is the angel of the abyss- Abaddon or Appolyon. These are demonic creatures. Maybe this is why Luke 21 says that men faint from fear because of what is coming on the earth??? Another point is that if we are to follow with Daniel's interpretation,meaning that the hosts of heaven = the stars of heaven = the holy people. Then how does that match the stars we see associated with the trumpets in the Revelation? These stars aren't being destroyed by the Antichrist, they aren't the holy people, they are taking part in the destroying. So to me it doesn't seem to fit. I highlighted the matter above to focus on that for a moment. You said afterwards, I am guessing you are referring to the star from heaven that falls and is given a key and the star called wormwood that causes bitterness? Not all stars are holy people. Was the king of Babylon a holy person? He is mentioned as a bright star in Isaiah 14. Back to holy people. Have you given it any thought that the 6th seal is mourning. The sun is blackened, the moon is darkened, the heavens shed no light...IF the stars are holy people here, IF, then them falling to the ground would be a case for mourning would it not assuming that is the case. Even the world for sackcloth that the sun turns into is: Interesting post Venge and a lot to think about. In Rev. 12:1 the stars are clearly good because they are associated with the woman. Yet, in Rev. 9:1 the star fell and so it is clearly bad because it is associated with the bottomless pit. What I really like is your connection between the sun black as sackcloth and mourning. If you are correct then the four plagues as outlined in Rev. 6:8 that are namely to kill with the sward, hunger, death, and the beasts of the earth, that are restated in Rev. 18:8 as death, mourning, famine, and utterly burned with fire, are expanded upon in Rev. 6:9-17 and Rev. 18:9-24 follows: | Rev. 6:8 | Rev. 18:8 | Rev. 6:9-17 | Rev. 18:9-24 | | kill with the sward | death | Rev. 6:9-11 | Rev. 18:9 | | hunger | mourning | Rev. 6:12 | Rev. 18:10-11 | | death | famine | Rev. 6:13 | Rev. 18:12-17 | | the beasts of the earth | utterly burned with fire | Rev. 6:14-17 | Rev. 18:18-24 |
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Notice the mourning connection in Rev. 6:12 and 18:10-11. Additionally in Rev. 6:13 the stars are the good guys because they are associated with the fig tree. You know, the fig tree that lost it's leaves was symbolic of Judah loosing the mantel of gospel authority (Matt. 21:19). However, the fig tree that is shaken with the wind and looses it fruit is Judah under attack. |
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Post by rt on Jan 26, 2019 20:21:20 GMT -6
I just think that context is key. It seems to me, and I am not being sarcastic or critical here, but it seems that you are ignoring the context of what is going on in the revelation. Yes- stars can be interpreted to mean people, but in the context of the revelation I do not believe that is the case, stars can also be interpreted to mean supernatural angelic beings.
I would like to put this subject to rest here in this thread so as not to detract from the main emphasis, which is the 6th seal rapture. Perhaps you would like to start a new thread on "stars" and maybe elicit more feedback. I certainly would like to hear what others have to say on the subject.
Maybe you could start the new thread posing this question- what do others interpret the stars associated with the trumpets as being- people, supernatural angelic beings or just celestial bodies? And why?
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holy
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Post by holy on Jan 27, 2019 13:51:43 GMT -6
Greetings everyone......I’m back!
I’m continuing my trek through this awesome thread. I see my sister, Rt, answered some of my questions.....yeah! Thank you, Rt.......you rock! (Now can you let me pay for your book or pdf file or whatever you have compiled?)
I noticed the discussion veered off to “paradise” and the discussion was trying to answer the question....does PARADISE still exist. We know it once existed in the earth with Abraham in charge, but is it still there? I have to agree with Rt based on Paul’s comment in 2 Cor 12 that paradise seems to have been moved from in the earth to heaven. Assuming that is where Paul went.
Okay, that is all I have on that. Back to reading.....
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holy
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Post by holy on Jan 27, 2019 13:57:22 GMT -6
watchmanjim,
I probably wasn't clear.... I am referring to the tribulation period only. I'm not talking at all about the Millennial period. Ah, ok. During the tribulation's first 3.5 years, it seems that the Israelites will have their temple and will be able to use it, although I think you will find, that not all of them worship and accept Jesus Messiah. It could be that most of them in that time period go with the temple worship and a non-Christian Judeaism, as many of them do today. However, the 144,000, and all who follow them and the 2 witnesses, will evidently be out evangelizing everywhere, both to the Israelites and to gentiles, probably throughout the earth. Then when the Abomination is set up in the temple, the Israelites who are in the area of Jerusalem and Judea are to flee out of the city into the mountains. I believe it is at this time, that many of the formerly lost Israelites will choose to follow Messiah, when they are hidden for 3.5 years. Then most of the non-mark-receiving people of the earth, outside of the hidden remanant, will be slain by their enemies. But some non-mark receiving gentiles will survive, as shown in Isaiah 66 and elsewhere. Yes, this is how I see it too. Apparently there will be plenty on people on Earth not taking the mark of the beast (a topic that still perplexed me greatly). There appears to be a good number of people being allowed entrance into the Millennial Kingdom as shown in the sheep and Goat Judgment pursuant to Matt 25. Although, I don’t know the basis for me saying “good number” because that is not stated specifically in the Word. |
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holy
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Post by holy on Jan 27, 2019 14:16:28 GMT -6
I believe the fifth Trump forward is the last 3.5 years. I say this because look at what is said at the end of the telling of the fourth Trumpet...."woe" to what is coming next. I see "woes" as part of the Great tribulation. Like RT, I could be wrong, I'm not the final say. This is just as I see it. I too have thought this, but Rt has now opened my mind to see the possibility that maybe they are opened in the first half of the week. No big deal I suppose. |
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holy
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Post by holy on Jan 27, 2019 21:42:39 GMT -6
Great thread and discussion, and for rt for presenting her thoughts and analysis! It appears to me that her view is a hybrid pre-trib/pre-wrath view......she believes the rapture is right after the 6th seal, the 24 elders do not represent the raptured church, and that believers will endure the 1st 6 seals....all of which are exactly the pre-wrath view. The main difference she presents is the timing of onset of the 70th week......pre-wrath would place it at the first seal, while rt places the onset at the 7th seal. The major elements are one and the same...it is a matter of defining when the 70th week begins, and we know from Daniel 9:27 that it begins with a covenant....the nature and character of which we believers will hopefully not be caught by surprise by! Just to clear things up,in case it wasn’t made clear.....The pre wrath view does place the rapture after the 6th seal much like our esteemed sister Rt, but they place the 6th seal about half way into the second half of the week, even after the abomination of desolation. Placing the rapture this late in the game makes them almost a post Tribber. |
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holy
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Post by holy on Jan 27, 2019 22:04:27 GMT -6
You are welcome Connie, and trust me when I say, it is equally a blessing for me to hear that I am not a lone ranger either. I have had a hard time even getting people to entertain some of my thoughts, let alone agreeing with me in any way. So thank you also for taking the time to read the entire thread and for your kind words of encouragement, it means a lot to me and is very much appreciated as well. This has been a great thread. I’m loving the discussion, the rebuttals, the questions and answers.....good fellowship. Recently, I was banned on another pre Trib rapture discussion board because I proposed a 6th seal rapture that was PRE TRIB but they didn’t care. It didn’t follow the traditional model where the seals HAVE TO BEGIN AT THE START OF THE 70th week. No one could show me conclusively that has to be so, although I did agree, one can possibly infer it. Anyhow, what a difference between websites, this one and that one. |
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Post by rt on Jan 28, 2019 13:37:42 GMT -6
You are welcome Connie, and trust me when I say, it is equally a blessing for me to hear that I am not a lone ranger either. I have had a hard time even getting people to entertain some of my thoughts, let alone agreeing with me in any way. So thank you also for taking the time to read the entire thread and for your kind words of encouragement, it means a lot to me and is very much appreciated as well. This has been a great thread. I’m loving the discussion, the rebuttals, the questions and answers.....good fellowship. Recently, I was banned on another pre Trib rapture discussion board because I proposed a 6th seal rapture that was PRE TRIB but they didn’t care. It didn’t follow the traditional model where the seals HAVE TO BEGIN AT THE START OF THE 70th week. No one could show me conclusively that has to be so, although I did agree, one can possibly infer it. Anyhow, what a difference between websites, this one and that one. Hi Holy, I started to share some of my ideas on another pre trib site as well, I actually was in a discussion with the admin, but once we got to a point in the discussion where he couldn't refute what I was saying he deleted all my posts and warned me not to go there again or he would ban me from the site. One of the reasons why I came to this site, thanks to Gary for having such a welcoming and open mind. Needless to say I haven't visited the other site since coming over here. I always try to be respectful of other people's ideas and theories, even when I strongly disagree. The fact is that none of us has a corner on truth when it comes to interpreting prophecy. Let me know when you are caught up with reading the thread. I would like to PM you when you are done and discuss sharing my study with you. |
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holy
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Post by holy on Jan 28, 2019 15:32:14 GMT -6
Hi Rt,
i am just about caught up. I have two more pages to go but it looks like you and venge got bogged down in a lengthy discussion that was losing my attention. Soooooooo, message me at your pleasure.
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holy
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Post by holy on Jan 28, 2019 15:44:21 GMT -6
There is a danger in interpreting things allegorically, the danger being that any meaning can be applied. I tend to see things literally when it comes to scripture unless the metaphor is therein defined. That doesn't mean there isn't a metaphorical meaning, but if I choose to go down that path I look to scripture itself and context for clues. To me who the fallen star is or what it represents isn't the focus, what the burning mountain may or may not represent isn't what is important. I can make educated guesses but I honestly cannot be definitive. The important bits are definitive, the affects they have on the earth are given, they IMO are not allegorical but factual. Again that is the danger, start allegorizing one part and then you go down that path to allegorize more and more until it fits into whatever interpretation you choose. I am not saying anyone here is doing so, just giving a word of caution. Let each one decide for themselves. I think I have said all I can on this particular subject. Again thanks for the lively and thought provoking discussion- feel free to carry on! I agree with ever6 word you said here. In my opinion, this discussion is very tedious because who is to say if and when you should allegorize? We obviously know sometimes you have to.....When the literal word doesn’t make any sense! That is when I do it! Personally, a mountain coming down from heaven does make sense to me (asteroid or meteors happen) so I would not choose to allorgorize, but I’m not going to debate this because no one can say from either side that without any doubt their position is 100% correct, guaranteed. I’m sure somewhere in the Bible “mountain” meant nation or kingdom. But like I said, I only do (allorgorize) if the literal word makes NO SENSE AT ALL. Then I use my COMMON SENSE! I would rather err on this side, than the other. But that is me. To each their own. |
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