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Post by cwood85 on Mar 4, 2019 15:36:05 GMT -6
Is he not referring to the parable of Lazarus and the rich man? Luke 16 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Now, I've been taught not to establish doctrine based on parables, but rather to use doctrine to interpret parables. However, most Christians believe that pre-cross & ressurection, "Abraham's Bosom" was the "Paradise Jesus referred to, and that Sheol was a place of torment (part of it). Actually, Sheol is a "place of the dead"...for both righteous and unrighteous. "Abraham's Bosom" & "Hades" might be a better distinction between the two places separated by a "gulf". 23 And in hell (Hades) he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Hades is a transliteration from the Hebrew Sheol or grave, realm of the dead, etc. which is what you said above, but I want to point out something interesting. The word Paradise is fascinating in its meaning: 3857 parádeisos – an ancient Persian word meaning "enclosure, garden, park. ; a park, a garden, a paradise.
The garden where we are in the midst of God. Remember the lamb was slain before the creation of the world, outside of our time: ...the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world. -Rev 3:8.
And also something else here that is very very interesting with the sequence of events occuring at the crucifixion and my comment above about Jesus being outside of space/time and etc: 50And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit (Life, Breath). 51And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split. 52The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many. <<< Do you see that!!!! The saints came out of the tombs at his resurrection?!? The very next verses however describe his burial and that his resurrection does not happen for another three days so how do they rise right after his crucifixion because of his resurrection?? We see in the very next verses that the dead who rose freaked people out! Matthew is the only gospel that gives this detail of the dead rising. 54Now the centurion, and those who were with him keeping guard over Jesus, when they saw the earthquake and the things that were happening, became very frightened and said, “Truly this was the Son of God!”
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Post by mike on Mar 4, 2019 15:59:25 GMT -6
cwood85 Are you suggesting that the tombs opened at the crucifixion and the dead stayed in the tomb, raised/alive until he rose 3 days later? That might mean that no one noticed the dead were raised until they entered the city? If I am reading you correctly, that could play a major major implication on the rapture as the dead in Christ rise first. Imagine if no one noticed... OK Maybe I'm down the rabbit hole and I'm confused - Selah
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Post by cwood85 on Mar 4, 2019 16:45:43 GMT -6
cwood85 Are you suggesting that the tombs opened at the crucifixion and the dead stayed in the tomb, raised/alive until he rose 3 days later? That might mean that no one noticed the dead were raised until they entered the city? If I am reading you correctly, that could play a major major implication on the rapture as the dead in Christ rise first. Imagine if no one noticed... OK Maybe I'm down the rabbit hole and I'm confused - Selah. <<<< Your not the only one who is confused lol I am simply putting out what scriptures say. And they say that right after the veil tore at the temple immediately after Jesus does, from Top to bottom at that, the dead saints rose from their tombs and went into The holy city With Christ Resurrection. It does not say Jerusalem which was where they were at, just holy city and appeared to many. The word holy here is the same that is used for Holy Spirit. From Bible hub:set apart by (or for) God, holy, sacred; hágios) implies something "set apart" and therefore "different (distinguished/distinct)" – i.e. "other," because special to the Lord.] just some more things to confuse you lol....
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Post by stormyknight on Mar 4, 2019 18:42:22 GMT -6
This is a difficult subject and no doubt worrisome to many believers.
Most Holy Father in Heaven, please strengthen our faith and guide our understanding in this matter. Build us up with the assurance we seek that we may be strong in our faith. We know that you would not let even one of your flock go astray, but we still need the security of your presence. Grant us peace of mind and help us look forward with high hopes to the day Your Son comes to claim us. In Jesus Christ, our Redeemer's Holy Name, I pray. Amen.
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Post by Servant on Mar 4, 2019 20:56:52 GMT -6
I figure that Jesus died, went to other side, spread the good news to both repentant and unrepentant sinners. Then they decided to take the free Gift, Jesus brought them back to be alive and to show that He triumph over death which has no sting. I think its Earthly Jerusalem as there are no humans beings living up in Holy Jerusalem. And since Holy Ghost is part of Jesus and Heavenly Father, Jesus gave the Holy Ghost to the dead repentant sinners who accepted Him. I thought it makes sense because the Lord is being fair as the dead has been waiting for how long? 5 years? 500 years? More? Remember for the Bible said about Rapture, for those who died to be the first and the living to be the last. So far, I didn't find out any mention of the resurrection happening around the world at the same time as it happened only in the city at the same time, etc. It seems that its isolated event separated from the Rapture which normally occur around the world at the same time. In short, Rapture is entirely different event. I rather place it as a miracle of Christ to fulfill the prophecies about himself. And to show that He has power over death. I see that the transfiguration, raising of the dead, His sudden appearance, eating fish meaning He is not a ghost, instant teleportation, etc hints at the Rapture to come so we all have hope and not to give up and strive for the day to come. Brother and sisters, have hope! Be strong! Lift your heads to the sky, see the clouds breaking apart and the LIGHT shining through!
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Post by cwood85 on Mar 4, 2019 21:21:12 GMT -6
Back to the original topic there are some translations that translate this a little differently:
The beast that thou didst see: it was, and it is not; and it is about to come up out of the abyss, and to go away to destruction, and wonder shall those dwelling upon the earth, whose names have not been written upon the scroll of the life from the foundation of the world, beholding the beast that was, and is not, although it is.
I have italicized and bolder the words of interest in this verse. Most translations cut out the word THE before the word LIFE. It’s there in the Greek. We also think of the word book as a “book” with all the names of everyone who ever lived which would be huge (metaphorically speaking) but the word here means little or small book. It is the diminutive of the Greek word Biblios for a book or scroll of substance and volume, the word here is biblion, which more means like a personal sized scroll or small notebook type of a book/scroll and can also means writing.
Can I ask a question that may be difficult. Why do we assume or connect that the book of life is referring to ones salvation? If we follow a beast kingdom (which is made up of kings and kingdoms as explained multiple times in Revelation) we do not have salvation? These beast are spoken of as happening throughout history, such as 5 fallen and some more yet to come. So in allll of that span of time and years of 5 kingdoms that have already come, this is referencing to salvation by being blotted out of the book? This is not entirely a future event. It doesn’t say this is related to salvation though. There is no reference to salvation. This is the Lambs Book of the life. Salvation is the forgiveness of sins by clearing the debt of sin. But following a beast is a way to overcome what Jesus has achieved. We cannot say or read this as being a future event because verse 10 tells us 5 of the 7 kings have already ruled:
9This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; 10they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while.
I am just trying to understand where this connection stems from because I don’t see it as the way this verse is written, this is a continuous process.
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Post by boraddict on Mar 5, 2019 1:05:41 GMT -6
As I was looking at the posts I considered Revelation 17:8 and that it is a riddle the answer of which is in the verses that follow. That is, the angel gives the riddle (v. 17:8) and then explains the riddle (vv. 17:9-18).
Post Script Edit:
King James Version "The beast that thou sawest (v. 17:3) was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit (v. 13:1), and go into perdition (v. 14:11): and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder (v. 13:3), whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world (13:8) , when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."
The riddle shows that Chapter 13 is included along with Chapter 17. Additionally, the explanation of the riddle (vv. 17:9-18) includes Chapter 14 at Verse 17:14 in response to the question of who can make war with the beast (v. 13:4). That is, the question of who can make war with the beast is asked at Verse 13:4 and the answer is given at Verse 14:1. Therefore, the answer to the riddle (v. 17:8) includes not only Chapters 17 and 13, but Chapter 14 as well.
Thus, the beast that John saw at Verse 17:3 no longer exists but arises from mankind at Verse 13:1. They that dwell on the earth shall wonder when they behold the beast that John saw (v. 17:3) arise from their midst (v. 13:1). The riddle shows that John is seeing the same thing that the people of the world are seeing; the beast that was alive arising to become alive again. Thus, the deadly wound was healed (v. 13:3). That is, the people of the earth shall see the beast become wounded to death and then the beast coming back to life. Verses 13:3 indicates that this beast is one of it's heads and Verse 13:1 tells us that there are a total of 7 heads. This information is the first part of the angel's explanation at Verses 17:9-10 as follows:
"And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space."
So here at Verses 17:9-10 we have the seven heads as referenced in Verse 13:1. Also notice that these seven heads are associated with the beast that was alive (v. 17:3). Therefore, these seven heads are ancestral to the beasts of Verses 17:3 and 13:1. This means that the beast of Verse 17:3 is the eighth and the beast is the beast of Verse 13:1 is the ninth. The eighth died and the ninth take his place. This information is clearly given in Verse 17:11 that "the beast that was and is not" from the first part of the riddle (v. 17:8) "is the eighth." Therefore, the beast of the second part of the riddle is the ninth.
This means that the beast of Verse 17:3 has 7 ancestral beasts and the beast of Verse 13:1 has the same seven ancestral beasts. Yet since he died as the eight beast and came back to life he is now number nine. He died as number eight and came back alive as number nine. That is, the beast that was and is not was number eight and when he came back alive he is number nine. For me it is so much easier to think of it this way.
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Post by rt on Mar 5, 2019 9:44:56 GMT -6
As I was looking at the posts I considered Revelation 17:8 and that it is a riddle the answer of which is in the verses that follow. That is, the angel gives the riddle (v. 17:8) and then he explains the riddle (vv. 17:9-18). Yes, good point, however, no where in the answer to the riddle does the angel address "those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world". Revelation 13:8 says pretty much the same thing without a riddle being posed: But perhaps I am missing the forest for the trees so to speak, the point the passage is making is that those who are not written in the book of life, those who are unrepentant - those who are not numbered among the saints- all of the unsaved who reside on earth at the time will worship the beast. It marks a turning point, up until this point repentance is possible, but once one worships the beast, taking his Mark, repentance is no longer possible. There is a clear distinction between the saints and everyone else. There are no more potential saints, no more opportunity for salvation. Once they pledge allegiance to the beast and take the Mark, they are blotted out. Unlike those who lived before this point in time, whose names may not be erased until their death, because they have opportunity to repent while they yet breath air on earth up until the moment they die. Instead these beast followers have their names blotted out before they physically die? There is no hope of repentance for them once they receive the mark. Could this be the answer to why their names don't appear in the book of life?
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Post by Servant on Mar 5, 2019 10:03:34 GMT -6
The way I see it is that the book/scroll of life is a record of all repentant sinners. It can never be destroyed for trillions of years, eternal! Its a culmination of records, confirmation, details, seals, etc. Mainly its a record of those who chose Jesus and are saved, it doesn't provide salvation. I like it when I think about my name showing up in the book meaning that I am a citizen of Heaven, etc. One of other ways I see the book is like a student achieving a diploma after graduation from school. A degree from college, proof that I accept the Lord in my heart, body, and mind, etc. The governments/kingdoms of the world, the leaders are chosen by the public, though sometimes are invaded and taken over by force. Anyway, the point is that the governments are responsible for their actions as a whole of the country. The Lord will judge accordingly on the kingdoms on their deeds which reminds me of the Bible saying about those who curse you, I curse them, those who bless you, I bless them. The individuals in those kingdoms are responsible for accepting the Lord. The kingdoms has a choice to follow the Lord too as no one is above the Lord.
Those in the future got their names taken out while they are alive after accept the mark because they will accept AC and Fallen Angel. We have to picture it, the Lord show Himself through signs, angels, etc so there is no doubt that the Lord is real and active. The AC will proclaim the real nature of himself and the Fallen Angel at midpoint of the tribulation. People in their pride will accept the Fallen and AC because they thinking about 'now' instead of the 'future'. The Fallen will present the pledge that there is no doubt, like he is the Fallen Angel and they can worship him out of free will, and that they reject Christ forever. That makes it pretty clear and the Lord already warned the consequences for thousands of years about the mark. Time is short, make up your mind, death is everywhere, etc.
During the Age of Grace, there is chance of redemption because we are doing it through faith, not by sight. If we see the Lord in physical way then its easier to believe but its better to do through faith. Remember the part about Jesus and Thomas? He couldn't believe til he had to touch the wounds etc? Jesus said that bless those who believe even they don't see, etc. Yes, we stumble because we don't have the Angel or burning bush to remind us to watch ourselves. But if we chose to focus on our relationship with the Lord instead of ourselves, then our faith become refined.
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Post by boraddict on Mar 5, 2019 11:27:11 GMT -6
As I was looking at the posts I considered Revelation 17:8 and that it is a riddle the answer of which is in the verses that follow. That is, the angel gives the riddle (v. 17:8) and then he explains the riddle (vv. 17:9-18). Yes, good point, however, no where in the answer to the riddle does the angel address "those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world". Revelation 13:8 says pretty much the same thing without a riddle being posed: But perhaps I am missing the forest for the trees so to speak, the point the passage is making is that those who are not written in the book of life, those who are unrepentant - those who are not numbered among the saints- all of the unsaved who reside on earth at the time will worship the beast. It marks a turning point, up until this point repentance is possible, but once one worships the beast, taking his Mark, repentance is no longer possible. There is a clear distinction between the saints and everyone else. There are no more potential saints, no more opportunity for salvation. Once they pledge allegiance to the beast and take the Mark, they are blotted out. Unlike those who lived before this point in time, whose names may not be erased until their death, because they have opportunity to repent while they yet breath air on earth up until the moment they die. Instead these beast followers have their names blotted out before they physically die? There is no hope of repentance for them once they receive the mark. Could this be the answer to why their names don't appear in the book of life? I think there is something more to the mark than what we can see at this time. Perhaps these people have already decided to follow Satan and are already marked. In contrast the people to follow Christ are already marked. Thus, Christ followers are in the book of life because of their choices to follow Christ. This information is already known to God. However, it appears that some who present themselves as following Christ do not but follow Satan; thereby having their names blotted out from the book of life. That must mean that some who hold such promise fall. Their names could have been in the book of life but were not. Thus, their names are blotted out. This information is all know to God from the beginning. Thus, their names were never in the book of life. The potential was there, but they never made the grade. It is very sad. It must be that they appear to be in the book of life but are not. The point at which they are not is the point of the blot. Thus, their names were never in the book of life because of the blot. Had they not had the blot then theie name would have been in the book of life. In other words it all looks good for them until one point in time and that point is perhaps when they deny the Savior. Prior to that time they qualified to be in the book of life. So in God's mind they were in the book of life; until the blot. In reality they were never in the book of life but to God they had such promise.
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Post by stormyknight on Mar 5, 2019 12:17:13 GMT -6
As I was looking at the posts I considered Revelation 17:8 and that it is a riddle the answer of which is in the verses that follow. That is, the angel gives the riddle (v. 17:8) and then he explains the riddle (vv. 17:9-18). Yes, good point, however, no where in the answer to the riddle does the angel address "those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world". Revelation 13:8 says pretty much the same thing without a riddle being posed: But perhaps I am missing the forest for the trees so to speak, the point the passage is making is that those who are not written in the book of life, those who are unrepentant - those who are not numbered among the saints- all of the unsaved who reside on earth at the time will worship the beast. It marks a turning point, up until this point repentance is possible, but once one worships the beast, taking his Mark, repentance is no longer possible. There is a clear distinction between the saints and everyone else. There are no more potential saints, no more opportunity for salvation. Once they pledge allegiance to the beast and take the Mark, they are blotted out. Unlike those who lived before this point in time, whose names may not be erased until their death, because they have opportunity to repent while they yet breath air on earth up until the moment they die. Instead these beast followers have their names blotted out before they physically die? There is no hope of repentance for them once they receive the mark. Could this be the answer to why their names don't appear in the book of life? Is it possible that 'the book of life of the Lamb' is the names of ONLY those who are chosen to be the church, the body of Jesus Christ? Meaning that if one truly turns their back on Jesus, in this time period or age of grace, their name gets blotted out. Also that perhaps they will stand, later on, for judgement with all the rest of humanity at the Great White Throne judgement. The 'book of life' being a list of those who will become kings and priests. Is this one way of looking at it? I'm asking not stating an opinion.
edit: That is not to say those, such as myself, that got lazy or slid back into the world and then came back to Jesus had their names blotted out. I don't believe that. I believe God gives us every chance to come back.
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Post by cwood85 on Mar 5, 2019 13:02:25 GMT -6
As I was looking at the posts I considered Revelation 17:8 and that it is a riddle the answer of which is in the verses that follow. That is, the angel gives the riddle (v. 17:8) and then he explains the riddle (vv. 17:9-18). Yes, good point, however, no where in the answer to the riddle does the angel address "those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world". Revelation 13:8 says pretty much the same thing without a riddle being posed: But perhaps I am missing the forest for the trees so to speak, the point the passage is making is that those who are not written in the book of life, those who are unrepentant - those who are not numbered among the saints- all of the unsaved who reside on earth at the time <<< This not happening at one time nor a future time, this is happening all the time. The beast have 5 kings/kingdoms that have already fallen, meaning before Johns time and the writing of Revelation. People worshipped those 5 kings that made up the beast before Johns time. will worship the beast. It marks a turning point, up until this point repentance is possible, but once one worships the beast, taking his Mark, repentance is no longer possible. There is a clear distinction between the saints and everyone else. There are no more potential saints, no more opportunity for salvation. <<<< That is not said at all in any of the passages being studied here. What is said however in the following verses is this:
14They (the beast that the whore rides, all 8 plus the 10 horns) will make war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will triumph over them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and He will be accompanied by His called and chosen and faithful ones.”
Christ is triumphant, not the beast or MB.
Once they pledge allegiance to the beast and take the Mark, they are blotted out. Unlike those who lived before this point in time, whose names may not be erased until their death, because they have opportunity to repent while they yet breath air on earth up until the moment they die. Instead these beast followers have their names blotted out before they physically die? There is no hope of repentance for them once they receive the mark. Could this be the answer to why their names don't appear in the book of life? Lets look at a scenario for what is currently proposed as the mark of the beast and the result of one who takes the mark and see if it aligns with Gods character given in the rest of scriptures.
An unbelieving woman takes the mark who cares for her elderly unbelieving parents. It is the only way now that they can get food and the medications her parents need to live. She takes the mark for her parents so they can receive food, medications and the care that they need. What if this was for her children? Would God eternally punish someone for taking the mark to care for their family?!? The beast consist of kingdoms over generations, not all future. The beast existed before John, Mystery Babylon existed before John was given the Revelation. The beast in chapter 17 is the same as in chapter 13. Chapter 13 goes into more detail of the beast. Mystery Babylon is destroyed and no longer has control over the beast (kingdoms and rulers spanning over generations) 5 had already fallen before John with 2 plus one to come and these fallen where under the reigns of MB before John.
11And I saw another beast rising out of the earth (land, soil, regions, countries) and it had two horns like a lamb, and it was speaking like a dragon. 12And it exercises all the authority of the first beast in the presence of it (the second beast is in the presence of the first beast from the sea), and causes the earth and those dwelling in it, that they will worship the first beast (consisting of multiple kings/kingdoms with 5 that have already fallen), of whom its fatal wound had been healed. 13And it works great signs, so that it should even cause fire out of heaven to come down to the earth in the presence of men. 14And it deceives those dwelling on the earth, by reason (By convincing them) of the signs that were given to it to perform before the beast, telling those dwelling on the earth to make an image (exact reflection or replication, something in it's likeness.1504 eikṓn (from 1503 /eíkō, "be like") – properly, "mirror-like representation," referring to what is very close in resemblance, like a "high-definition" projection, as defined by the context. Jesus uses this same word when describing Caesar's imprint on the coin/money shown to him when asked about paying taxes by the Jews. Just some food for thought in regards to the coin with Caesar's image on it. The image of a man...) to the beast that has the wound of the sword and has lived. 15And there was given to it to give breath (same word used for spirit) to the image of the beast, so that image of the beast also should speak, and should cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast would be killed. 16And it causes all the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free and the servants, that it should give them a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, 17and that no one should be able to buy or to sell, if not the one having the mark—the name of the beast, or the number of its name. 18Here is the wisdom. The one having understanding, let him count the number of the beast, for it is a man’s number, and its number is six hundred sixty-six. <<<The mark (stamp, imprint, seal, more than likely a spiritual marking, like those who are marked on their foreheads as saints) is of the image/reflection/resemblance of a man.
We know in chapter 17 Jesus overcomes the first beast but the second beast is in the presence of the first beast. My point in the things I am pointing out is that the book of Revelation is not a linear book and the events do not happen in a linear sequence or order. The book of Revelation is not 2D but multidimensional and revealed by our Creator of many many dimensions. There is no greater evidence of this than when looking at the beast and how they are described and the roles in which they are in and the spans of time that they exist. Revelation is not a book of gloom and doom, it is a revelation of redemption, conquering through Christ and His sacrifice and the final plan to make all things new.
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Post by sog on Mar 5, 2019 13:24:06 GMT -6
This topic came up in a private message discussion and I thought I would share it here to see what thoughts others have: Having a hard time with the bit about those whose names had not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world vs 17:8,Rev 13:8 says about the same thing. I had always seen the book of life as a kind of invitation list, with every persons name in it that had ever been born, and as they reject Christ, their names are crossed off the list. Scripture talks about people's names being removed or blotted out of the book of life (Exodus 32:33,Psalm 69:28, Rev 3:5, Rev 22:19) . But the Revelation 17 and 13 passages seem to show that these people who will follow the beast who exist on earth during these final days have never had their names recorded. Like God knew they could never be saved. Perhaps my view of the book of life is wrong, and only those who God knew from eternity past that are destined for salvation are written in the book. But then you have to ask the obvious question.... what does it mean then if people's names can be blotted out? Can those who God knew would be saved lose their salvation? I found this at Barean Call which tries to explain: www.thebereancall.org/content/january-2004-q-and-a-4 But they fail to address the main question, which is how could these names have never been written. Some make the claim that these people have foreign or alien DNA which makes them ineligible for salvation because they are not entirely human? I am not sure about this, though perhaps there is more to the Mark of the Beast than we know, since we know that there is no hope of redemption once one has taken the mark(Rev 14:9), maybe this mark injects some kind of demonic DNA into its recipient? Hmm? Never really considered that, but it could be possible. Would really be interested to know what others think Back to the original post. It looks like at least part of the answer was given on the very website linked above. www.thebereancall.org/content/october-2013-classic
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Post by boraddict on Mar 5, 2019 19:07:05 GMT -6
Yes, good point, however, no where in the answer to the riddle does the angel address "those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world". Revelation 13:8 says pretty much the same thing without a riddle being posed: But perhaps I am missing the forest for the trees so to speak, the point the passage is making is that those who are not written in the book of life, those who are unrepentant - those who are not numbered among the saints- all of the unsaved who reside on earth at the time will worship the beast. It marks a turning point, up until this point repentance is possible, but once one worships the beast, taking his Mark, repentance is no longer possible. There is a clear distinction between the saints and everyone else. There are no more potential saints, no more opportunity for salvation. Once they pledge allegiance to the beast and take the Mark, they are blotted out. Unlike those who lived before this point in time, whose names may not be erased until their death, because they have opportunity to repent while they yet breath air on earth up until the moment they die. Instead these beast followers have their names blotted out before they physically die? There is no hope of repentance for them once they receive the mark. Could this be the answer to why their names don't appear in the book of life? Is it possible that 'the book of life of the Lamb' is the names of ONLY those who are chosen to be the church, the body of Jesus Christ? Meaning that if one truly turns their back on Jesus, in this time period or age of grace, their name gets blotted out. Also that perhaps they will stand, later on, for judgement with all the rest of humanity at the Great White Throne judgement. The 'book of life' being a list of those who will become kings and priests. Is this one way of looking at it? I'm asking not stating an opinion.
edit: That is not to say those, such as myself, that got lazy or slid back into the world and then came back to Jesus had their names blotted out. I don't believe that. I believe God gives us every chance to come back.
In earlier periods an individual might choose to reject the Savior but then repent and obtain the gift of salvation. However, during the mark of the beast era there is no turning back once the mark has been accepted. I am sure many will take the mark and then attempt to repent. So there is something decisive about it all. Thus if an individual takes the mark then their fate is sealed and there is no turning back. The choice is to die for Christ or take the mark. Those who die for Christ have eternal life. Those who do not die for Christ have eternal damnation. It is cut and dried. If an individual takes the mark of the beast then they are eternally condemned. So what is so critical about this mark? Perhaps it is the final push of Satan to rule the world for ever and those who take the mark ascent their testimony on behalf of Satan.
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Post by boraddict on Mar 6, 2019 7:31:10 GMT -6
As I was looking at the posts I considered Revelation 17:8 and that it is a riddle the answer of which is in the verses that follow. That is, the angel gives the riddle (v. 17:8) and then he explains the riddle (vv. 17:9-18). Yes, good point, however, no where in the answer to the riddle does the angel address "those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world". Revelation 13:8 says pretty much the same thing without a riddle being posed: But perhaps I am missing the forest for the trees so to speak, the point the passage is making is that those who are not written in the book of life, those who are unrepentant - those who are not numbered among the saints- all of the unsaved who reside on earth at the time will worship the beast. It marks a turning point, up until this point repentance is possible, but once one worships the beast, taking his Mark, repentance is no longer possible. There is a clear distinction between the saints and everyone else. There are no more potential saints, no more opportunity for salvation. Once they pledge allegiance to the beast and take the Mark, they are blotted out. Unlike those who lived before this point in time, whose names may not be erased until their death, because they have opportunity to repent while they yet breath air on earth up until the moment they die. Instead these beast followers have their names blotted out before they physically die? There is no hope of repentance for them once they receive the mark. Could this be the answer to why their names don't appear in the book of life? Okay, let's consider the angel's words in the riddle (v. 17:8) and there are three parts as follows: 1) The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: 2) and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, 3) when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. Now let's align the angel's words in the riddle to his explanation (vv. 17:9-18) as follows: 1) vv. 17:9-11 2) vv. 17:12-15
3) vv. 17:16-18 Therefore, those that dwell on the earth who wonder (number 2 above) should be found in Verses 17:12-15 of the angel's explanation. So let's now align Verses 17:12-15 to the comparable verses in Chapter 13 where the subject of those who wonder is mentioned, as follows: Verses 17:12-13 is aligned to Verse 13:3 Verse 17:14 is aligned to Verse 13:4 the answer of which to the question of who can make war with the beast is found in Verse 14:1 Verse 17:15 is aligned to Verses 13:5-8 From this verse alignment we can conclude that Verses 17:12-13 as well as Verse 13:3 pertain to number 2 above in which they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. Thus, those who wonder after the beast (v. 13:3) are those ten kings (v. 17:12) as well as those who follow them to give their power and strength (v. 17:13) unto the beast. Thus, those who give their power and strength unto the beast includes perhaps all living and dead including Satan and his demon followers as the pit of hell arising as the smoke (v. 9:2) to attack the Savior. The inclusion of the "bottomless pit" in the riddle (v. 17:8) confirms this association to Verse 9:2. So it appears that the mark of the beast may not be limited to the living but perhaps includes the dead and Satan's followers from the foundation of the world since Verse 9:2 shows us that these demons will be dwelling upon the earth (v. 13:8) at that time.
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