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Post by stormyknight on Mar 6, 2019 15:43:37 GMT -6
“The beast that you saw—it was, and now is no more, but is about to come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. And those who dwell on the earth whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet will be.” Rev. 17:8Why do these marvels when they see the beast? Is it because he has been released from the abyss? Rev. 9:2 If so, then I would surmise that those who marvel are those who know him, a.k.a. the fallen angels, they who were around at the foundation of the world. Would that be the reason those particular ‘persons’ names are not written in the book of life? It does not say that they are humans, it only says “those who dwell on the earth whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world”. Them being a certain group of people/beings/entities that are dwelling on the earth at that time. They are identified by the fact that their names are not written in the book of life from the beginning, ‘the foundation’, of the world. The fallen angels have been pulled to the earth when Satan was cast out of Heaven, Rev. 12:9, and they were present when the world was founded. Is this possible or am I shootin' in the dark?
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Post by rt on Mar 6, 2019 17:57:08 GMT -6
“The beast that you saw—it was, and now is no more, but is about to come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. And those who dwell on the earth whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet will be.” Rev. 17:8Why do these marvels when they see the beast? Is it because he has been released from the abyss? Rev. 9:2 If so, then I would surmise that those who marvel are those who know him, a.k.a. the fallen angels, they who were around at the foundation of the world. Would that be the reason those particular ‘persons’ names are not written in the book of life? It does not say that they are humans, it only says “those who dwell on the earth whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world”. Them being a certain group of people/beings/entities that are dwelling on the earth at that time. They are identified by the fact that their names are not written in the book of life from the beginning, ‘the foundation’, of the world. The fallen angels have been pulled to the earth when Satan was cast out of Heaven, Rev. 12:9, and they were present when the world was founded. Is this possible or am I shootin' in the dark?
That's an interesting idea, I had not thought of ...hm?
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Post by cwood85 on Mar 6, 2019 18:33:32 GMT -6
“The beast that you saw—it was, and now is no more, but is about to come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. And those who dwell on the earth whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet will be.” Rev. 17:8Why do these marvels when they see the beast? Is it because he has been released from the abyss? Rev. 9:2 If so, then I would surmise that those who marvel are those who know him, a.k.a. the fallen angels, they who were around at the foundation of the world. Would that be the reason those particular ‘persons’ names are not written in the book of life? It does not say that they are humans, it only says “those who dwell on the earth whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world”. Them being a certain group of people/beings/entities that are dwelling on the earth at that time. They are identified by the fact that their names are not written in the book of life from the beginning, ‘the foundation’, of the world. The fallen angels have been pulled to the earth when Satan was cast out of Heaven, Rev. 12:9, and they were present when the world was founded. Is this possible or am I shootin' in the dark?
Where does it say fallen angels? The beast is not singular, but consist of multiple kings. Why would any of that matter to fallen angels? This is talking about people, humans. Christ preached the gospel to the fallen angels when he died and was resurrected while they are bound by chains in Tartarus. The abyss is not Tartarus. Abyss or pit is another word for grave or realm of the dead. The fallen angels are in a state that is specifically for them because they do not go to the grave like we do. Essentially the beast came from death and evilness follows behind in its path. Per strongs: the abyss, unfathomable depth, an especially Jewish conception, the home of the dead and of evil spirits.
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Post by stormyknight on Mar 6, 2019 21:08:41 GMT -6
"and I saw a star that had fallen from heaven to earth, and it was given the key to the pit of the Abyss. The star opened the pit of the Abyss," Rev. 9:1-2
"They(the locust) were ruled by a king, the angel of the Abyss. His name in Hebrew is Abaddon,a and in Greek it is Apollyon." Rev. 9:11
I believe you are correct, cwood85, the beast is made up of many, but I also believe that the beast will be guided/ruled by/led by the spirit of the Abyss, whose name is Abaddon or Apollyon in the Greek.
"For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this world's darkness, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." Eph. 6:12 Remember, the 'heavenly realms' start from where the earth stops, at ground level. We know there is more than one layer to the "heavens" and the atmosphere we live in is one of them.
I'm thinking that when the star opened the pit of the Abyss, Abaddon is released to do his thing, which is to be the guiding factor of that beast of Rev.17:3, "that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns." The ten horns/kings give him their power for the one hour that they have power to give, to him and in doing so he, the beast, punishes the prostitute with whom the kings of the earth were sexually immoral. Personally I think the prostitute is the catholic church, not only because of the apt description in the first part of Rev. 17:4, but also how much the CC, lately, resembles the description in the second part of verse 4, "full of abominations and the impurities of her sexual immorality." The news I keep hearing about what priest have been doing turns my stomach, especially since I was an altar boy in my youth. Fortunately I never experienced any of those dreadful acts, but knowing that I was potentially a target gives me the willies.
So, to answer your question, cwood86, it doesn't technically say that they are fallen angels, but the fallen angels are dwelling on the earth at the time this takes place. The identifier is "whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world". The weren't blotted out, they were never written in the first place. My thinking is, that being fallen angels, they would marvel to see one of their own who had been imprisoned in the Abyss, who is the angel of the abyss, released to wreak havoc on the earth, namely to "become" the beast of Rev. 17.
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Post by brandon on Mar 7, 2019 10:34:40 GMT -6
In regards to the book of life discussion, Steve Sewell at the YouTube channel "Blessed Hope Forever," made a video detailing that there are two books.
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Post by venge on Mar 8, 2019 18:39:46 GMT -6
"and I saw a star that had fallen from heaven to earth, and it was given the key to the pit of the Abyss. The star opened the pit of the Abyss," Rev. 9:1-2
"They(the locust) were ruled by a king, the angel of the Abyss. His name in Hebrew is Abaddon,a and in Greek it is Apollyon." Rev. 9:11
I believe you are correct, cwood85, the beast is made up of many, but I also believe that the beast will be guided/ruled by/led by the spirit of the Abyss, whose name is Abaddon or Apollyon in the Greek.
"For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this world's darkness, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." Eph. 6:12 Remember, the 'heavenly realms' start from where the earth stops, at ground level. We know there is more than one layer to the "heavens" and the atmosphere we live in is one of them.
I'm thinking that when the star opened the pit of the Abyss, Abaddon is released to do his thing, which is to be the guiding factor of that beast of Rev.17:3, "that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns." The ten horns/kings give him their power for the one hour that they have power to give, to him and in doing so he, the beast, punishes the prostitute with whom the kings of the earth were sexually immoral. Personally I think the prostitute is the catholic church, not only because of the apt description in the first part of Rev. 17:4, but also how much the CC, lately, resembles the description in the second part of verse 4, "full of abominations and the impurities of her sexual immorality." The news I keep hearing about what priest have been doing turns my stomach, especially since I was an altar boy in my youth. Fortunately I never experienced any of those dreadful acts, but knowing that I was potentially a target gives me the willies.
So, to answer your question, cwood86, it doesn't technically say that they are fallen angels, but the fallen angels are dwelling on the earth at the time this takes place. The identifier is "whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world". The weren't blotted out, they were never written in the first place. My thinking is, that being fallen angels, they would marvel to see one of their own who had been imprisoned in the Abyss, who is the angel of the abyss, released to wreak havoc on the earth, namely to "become" the beast of Rev. 17.
Angels are not always spirits. Some are men. Don’t forget that. Also, others have fallen from heaven to earth and they were earthly kings.
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Post by mike on Mar 8, 2019 19:12:19 GMT -6
venge - I've not heard nor recall reading that angels were men? Where do read that? Thank you
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Post by venge on Mar 9, 2019 11:08:31 GMT -6
venge - I've not heard nor recall reading that angels were men? Where do read that? Thank you From biblehub: Therefore, one can be human and be sent by God to proclaim something making him an angel. Also from biblehub: Isaiah 14:12 describes Nebuchadnezzar's fall, the King of Babylon, as a star that falls from heaven to earth. The word angel can be either men or heavenly host. It is not always only heavenly.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Mar 9, 2019 14:46:16 GMT -6
rt I was wondering something about this blotting out or never have been there in the book of life. Lets look at the timeframe when the book are opened..perhaps it is merely a description of a state of a person than an actual literal book with people names. The issue of the names has more to do with what Name God sees us as or refers to us as.. bear with me in this verse study on Rev 20.. Rev 20 1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for sa short time. 4Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. (curious here who is the 'they' and are they getting judged or are these thrown-sitters doing the judging? is this the 24 elders?) And I saw the souls of those who (A)had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and (B)those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and (C) had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (so they were physically 'dead' ? I am not sure of group B or C have died, but maybe so) ****** 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.***** (this is where I think we have to keep an order of events strait) 6Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. (so these verses 4-6 are 'pre-millenial'? ) 7When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. (it reads like Satan is the person gathering the nations. These nations are operating while Jesus is reigning since we just have established we are in the Millenium, notice they are nations and not earth dwellers) 9And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
SO for 1000 years these nations are ruled by Jesus but still become deceived AFTER Satan is unbound for a short time. We do not know how long this is, or do we? Afterall, John is being shown what I read as an over view summary to the front and back ends of the 1000 year reign for Ch 20. This is where the books come in, which appears to be at the END of the 1000 years....These books are for the 2nd DEATH not the 1st Death, verse 6 tells us the partakers of the First Resurrection are not affected by the 2nd Death 11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. (earth and heaven fled from Him? I think it is describing people, not the planet nor physical heaven, but expect many to disagree. Basically I think John is emphasizing He is so awesome no one can stand in His Presence)
12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. (One could argue these dead are not judged by the "another book, which is book of life," but are being judged by books, that we really know nothing about, or does it take both the book of life and then other books to find the names of all these people?)
13And the (A)sea gave up the dead which were in it, and (B) death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Is verse 13 an elaboration of verse 12? If not, then we have 3 groups receiving judgement. This judgment seems to be for those nations that are from the 4 corners whom were gathered by the deception of Satan at the END of 1000 years. But we go back to Rev 13 and we see that the Sea Beast is talking about a timeframe that is before the 1000 year because of Rev 20 establishes the order of events. 8All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain. 9If anyone has an ear, let him hear. (This is pre-destination at work as well. and in doing this laborious verse by verse, the book of Life to me is not a judgement book) 10If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.
(it seems the reminder here to persevere with faith is that this Faith is faith in the Lord's authority over all, even if it seems terrible to see people go into bondage or be killed..its His Plan, have Faith) 8“The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.So we have a First Resurrection, from what seems to be from a First Death, and none of these people are part of the book judging? It seems that those whose names are not written in the book of Life are ones destined in the period before the millennial reign to not come to life until the end of 1000 years. They are destined to be deceived before the millennial, die? then come to life for their judgment. It is the release of Satan for a short time that the Lord demonstrated His Authority to those deceived during this short time? This is the Second Death sufferers, of whom receive their judgement thru multiple books? I am laying out the scripture so to keep a timeframe here. I don't think we can take ch 13 and Ch17 without having the order of events that ch 20 tells us. I don't think any of this has to do with Salvation, but who enters the Kingdom and when. Psalm 9 You have rebuked the nations; you have made the wicked perish; you have blotted out their name forever and ever ( an age of time we know not how long it lasts)
but we see this when righteousness is restored 1For Zion’s sake I will not keep silent,
And for Jerusalem’s sake I will not keep quiet,
Until her righteousness goes forth like brightness, And her salvation like a torch that is burning. 2The nations will see your righteousness, And all kings your glory; And you will be called by a new name Which the mouth of the LORD will designate.Whats in a Name? Are we not given a new name when we repent of our ways and follow the Lord? Rev 2 I will also give that person a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to the one who receives it.
If one is given a NEW name, is that NEW name in that Book of Life? Acts: Simeon has related how God first visited to take out of the Gentiles a people for His name.
The one thing for sure is He seems to be the one in control of the blotting or the naming.. and Jesus tells us the purpose of Himself here: 18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20“For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21“But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”
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Post by rt on Mar 11, 2019 14:47:19 GMT -6
barbiosheepgirl, Hi there fellow watcher, I am not sure I follow your logic, are you saying that rev 13 and 17 are merely pointing out that these people who follow the beast are just part of the larger group that will be judged later after the millennial reign? That is why their names are said not to appear in the book of life? Rather than respond here concerning the resurrection(s) in this thread, I would point you to a study I posted a while ago here that explains my thoughts: unsealed.boards.net/thread/283/resurrection-harvestThere are certainly many different ideas concerning this topic, doesn't seem like anyone really has a full grasp of it, including me. Thanks for sharing your thoughts barbio, and everyone else too. Certainly leaves me with lots to think on. Please continue .....
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Post by venge on Mar 13, 2019 12:31:45 GMT -6
Now here is a question I'd love to see an answer to =P Please just follow with me as I am not proposing this is right, I am just thinking.
If the 1st resurrection ONLY applies to the following: 1. Those who are beheaded (Martyrs) 2. Those who did not worship the beast (Must be a believer during the last kingdom) 3.Did not receive the mark of the beast (Must live during the last kingdom)
Then Christians outside the time of the last kingdom that comes will not reign with Christ for 1k years. That is, believers from Christ till before the last kingdom comes correct? As we see the requirements in the verses below.
So, if I don't see the last kingdom, and I die tomorrow, I am part of the "rest of the dead that does not come to life till after Christ 1k year reign. Now, if that is true, then would I be part of the great white throne judgement in verse 15 below after the 1k reign of Christ as I could be found in the book of life. As the verse states anyone that is not found will be in hell but also implies anyone found written in the book would not go to hell. Such confusion. But I am reminded of 1 Cor 15:23 How would someone who belongs to Christ and not be part of the: 1. Those who are beheaded (Martyrs) 2. Those who did not worship the beast (Must be a believer during the last kingdom) 3.Did not receive the mark of the beast (Must live during the last kingdom) How would that person still be raised then? It is almost as if one is against the other. Unless the beast doesnt need to be here for you to worship it and you can always worship it in your heart. That would allow for someone to not worship it and still fulfill #2. Now, I have my own ideas on it but I wanted to ask you.
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Post by stormyknight on Mar 13, 2019 14:00:04 GMT -6
Those who are beheaded and those who did not worship the beast or receive it's mark are dead and are in need of a resurrection. NOT all those who belong to Christ TODAY are going to need resurrected, though all, dead and alive will be raptured, the dead first and then the living. Technically, I guess, this could be called a resurrection on the part of those who are 'dead in Christ', but those whom you are referring to are ALL dead. Also, when Jesus Christ returns the first time, those who 'belong to Christ' will be gathered 'from the four corners of Heaven'. Why there? I believe we will be in the rooms prepared for us by Jesus Christ(I hope I have a window facing the Carina Nebula! I find it facinating.).
1 Thess. 4:16-17 "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.…"
Matt. 24:31 "And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."
John 14:2-4 "In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going.”…
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Post by venge on Mar 13, 2019 14:32:24 GMT -6
Those who are beheaded and those who did not worship the beast or receive it's mark are dead and are in need of a resurrection. NOT all those who belong to Christ TODAY are going to need resurrected, though all, dead and alive will be raptured, the dead first and then the living. Technically, I guess, this could be called a resurrection on the part of those who are 'dead in Christ', but those whom you are referring to are ALL dead. Also, when Jesus Christ returns the first time, those who 'belong to Christ' will be gathered 'from the four corners of Heaven'. Why there? I believe we will be in the rooms prepared for us by Jesus Christ(I hope I have a window facing the Carina Nebula! I find it facinating.).
1 Thess. 4:16-17 "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.…"
Matt. 24:31 "And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."
John 14:2-4 "In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going.”…
Those who were beheaded and didn't take the mark are not in need of resurrection any more then those who died 50 years prior. They are all dead. They all sleep. If our grandparents that died and believed, don't need to be resurrected, then how will they get new bodies? Are you saying that those who died in that time period and have been buried will resurrect back to their old bodies on earth and live as humans and not be raptured? That goes against: Does not our grandparents that believed belong to him? There are only 2 resurrections. You said: But they will need to be resurrected as therre are 2. In one of those it will happen. And it applies to all. Believer and non believer.
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Post by mike on Mar 13, 2019 14:44:45 GMT -6
venge - I think Stormy meant that those who are alive still (TODAY) need not be resurrected. You know that group of those who are alive and remain
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Post by venge on Mar 13, 2019 14:49:29 GMT -6
venge - I think Stormy meant that those who are alive still (TODAY) need not be resurrected. You know that group of those who are alive and remain Yes, I understand that, but we are talking about the dead. The dead when this all happens and the dead before it happens. All agree on a resurrection. But what timing =P Maybe it has something to do with Matthew 20...the first shall be last and the last shall be first? Hmm
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