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Post by rt on Mar 4, 2019 7:41:25 GMT -6
This topic came up in a private message discussion and I thought I would share it here to see what thoughts others have: Having a hard time with the bit about those whose names had not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world vs 17:8,Rev 13:8 says about the same thing. I had always seen the book of life as a kind of invitation list, with every persons name in it that had ever been born, and as they reject Christ, their names are crossed off the list. Scripture talks about people's names being removed or blotted out of the book of life (Exodus 32:33,Psalm 69:28, Rev 3:5, Rev 22:19) . But the Revelation 17 and 13 passages seem to show that these people who will follow the beast who exist on earth during these final days have never had their names recorded. Like God knew they could never be saved. Perhaps my view of the book of life is wrong, and only those who God knew from eternity past that are destined for salvation are written in the book. But then you have to ask the obvious question.... what does it mean then if people's names can be blotted out? Can those who God knew would be saved lose their salvation? I found this at Barean Call which tries to explain: www.thebereancall.org/content/january-2004-q-and-a-4 But they fail to address the main question, which is how could these names have never been written. Some make the claim that these people have foreign or alien DNA which makes them ineligible for salvation because they are not entirely human? I am not sure about this, though perhaps there is more to the Mark of the Beast than we know, since we know that there is no hope of redemption once one has taken the mark(Rev 14:9), maybe this mark injects some kind of demonic DNA into its recipient? Hmm? Never really considered that, but it could be possible. Would really be interested to know what others think
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Post by Natalie on Mar 4, 2019 8:49:26 GMT -6
I have heard two different takes on this verse: 1) the word before should be translated from. So, this would imply that as you become a believer your name is written in the Lamb's book of life. (NASB for example: All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain). From the time creation began, names became added to the Lamb's book. 2) the order of the verse should be different. NKJV (and KJV) translate it like this: "All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." This way shows that it was God's plan from the beginning to offer a Lamb, and believers are written in His book. (I tend to go with this translation) Both of these translate it "from" instead of "before". I think the translation of this verse can be slanted by the beliefs of those who are doing the translating. I think the ESV (quoted in the OP) slants Calvinistic on this verse. It makes it sound like God picks who is saved. My question would be...is everyone written in the the Lamb's book of life and are blotted out when they refuse Him (or at their death when the choice is no longer an option)? That would answer questions brought up by Ex 32:33 and other verses. I did not read your link yet, maybe it addresses this. I'll go read it now.
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Post by Natalie on Mar 4, 2019 9:03:43 GMT -6
I think taking the mark is just an outward sign of a person's final refusal of Christ. I don't think that it will alter people genetically (although at this point in history anything is possible). And after reading the article and considering the character of God and His Word, I think it does make sense that He would have a book that would record everyone ever born giving all a chance at salvation, then as they choose or reject (based on faith alone) their name is kept or blotted out. Only He knows when that final rejection is.
If your name is blotted out, then it's like it was never written to begin with. Thus, those with the mark are not found written in His book.
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Post by Servant on Mar 4, 2019 10:50:01 GMT -6
I have thought about this for some time.
I remember that AC and false prophet and you-know-who are in contrast to the Holy Trinity. Truth vs lies, love vs hate, humble vs pride, etc.
In the Bible, it is said that the Lord will transform all of us when we go to Heaven, meaning we will not desire to sin, new bodies, etc. The Fallen Angel might mimic that on Earth when he falls from Heaven in the future. He might modify the technology that alters the brain pathways to make people obedient, and the pledge to worship upon accepting the mark.
If that happens, then its irreversible as the AC won't let the mark change back the pathways to original paths for obvious reasons. And the Lord cannot force them to reject the mark after accepting as He already given everybody the free will.
What I am going to say might be disturbing. Its bothers me too but its possible that the parents in the future force their children to accept the mark. Its a form of a child sacrifice to the Fallen Angel. He will let them live as he desire worship than death.
And since the Lord can see in the future, it is possible that He knows what happens so He might blot the names.
It could be one of the reasons why the Lord is doing everything during the tribulations to save people.
I gather from reading about the progress of the technology like AI research, and face mapping from China, doctors discovering the pathways in brain for the consciousness. I think I saw a link from one of Gary's article about the technology and mind link?
And I been reading that the parents subject their children like gender orientations, vaccinations, abortions, etc. That why I thought its possible that with the mark on children.
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Post by mike on Mar 4, 2019 10:51:14 GMT -6
Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out {4229. machah - to wipe, wipe out} of my book.
Deut 9:14 Let me alone, that I may destroy {8045. shamad - to be exterminated or destroyed} them, and blot out {4229. machah - to wipe, wipe out} their name from under heaven: and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater than they.
Deut 32:26 I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease {7673. {shabath - to cease, desist, rest} from among men:
Psalm 51:1 {{To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba. }} Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out {4229. machah - to wipe, wipe out} my transgressions.
2 Kings 14:27 And the LORD said not that he would blot out {4229. machah - to wipe, wipe out} the name of Israel from under heaven: but he saved them by the hand of Jeroboam the son of Joash.
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out {1813 exaleiphó - to wipe out, erase, obliterate} his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
I had noticed this many times through the OT when the Lord blots out a name or people from under heaven. - I'm in for discussion
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Post by Servant on Mar 4, 2019 11:21:23 GMT -6
Yes, in the OT, when people died, they do not go to Heaven but to Abraham's bosom and the unrepentant sinners go to the Sheol.
After Jesus's sacrifice, the saved goes to Heaven and the unrepentant sinners go to Hell.
I remember reading from Gary's article about the old law which everyone broke because of our sinful nature. And then Jesus had to die to fulfill the law. Higher standards, like Jesus said, if you plan evil in your heart, you already committed a sin before acting on that. Greater reward meaning better relationship with Heavenly Father and Son, Heaven, etc. Those who are unrepentant are getting severe punishment, cut off from God, Son and Heaven, and to Hell.
That why people had harder time to stop sinning without Christ in their hearts in OT. In the NT, people can either stop sinning or refrain with the Christ in their hearts.
I noticed that in the OT, sins tend to receive harsh punishment, like if you injure someone in the eye, you lose your eye. In the NT, its about forgiveness, etc.
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Post by cwood85 on Mar 4, 2019 12:38:23 GMT -6
First of all nice to meet you servant! Yes, in the OT, when people died, they do not go to Heaven but to Abraham's bosom and the unrepentant sinners go to the Sheol. <<<< This sounds a lot like purgatory? Sheol means grave, as in a grave dug in the ground or what was considered more honorable back then, a stone tomb above ground or a type of cave. Same thing when pit is being referenced to in the bible. We have always gone to the same places upon death, there are not two separate realms for one set of people and a different location for another.
18For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.After Jesus's sacrifice, the saved goes to Heaven and the unrepentant sinners go to Hell. <<<< All will hear the gospel, even the dead have and are hearing the gospel now. Jesus is outside of time and is not in a linear way of thinking and acting like we are.
"but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God."
12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,I remember reading from Gary's article about the old law which everyone broke because of our sinful nature. And then Jesus had to die to fulfill the law. Higher standards, like Jesus said, if you plan evil in your heart, you already committed a sin before acting on that. Greater reward meaning better relationship with Heavenly Father and Son, Heaven, etc. Those who are unrepentant are getting severe punishment, cut off from God, Son and Heaven, and to Hell. That why people had harder time to stop sinning without Christ in their hearts in OT. In the NT, people can either stop sinning or refrain with the Christ in their hearts. <<<<<It is important to keep in mind the law was never intended for us to be able to fulfill, only Christ. There has never been a period where people sinned less or more or had a harder time doing so. Abraham directly disobeyed God more than once before there ever was the law. Trying to conceive a son by his own means instead of trusting Gods plan, and lying to the Pharaoh when he said his wife was his sister and the Pharaoh tried to marry her. David was an adulterer and a murderer, Solomon was a man whore. All of us have evil in our heart. Repentance means to have a change of heart and mindset, not to try and stop sinning more. No one accomplishes that no matter how hard they try.
10“Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11“The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12‘I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’ 13“But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14“I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
Repentance is to understand that we are a sinner, not to show or try to be the best a sinning the least. To humble ourselves in realizing we cannot save ourselves from our sin, God did that through Jesus.
I noticed that in the OT, sins tend to receive harsh punishment, like if you injure someone in the eye, you lose your eye. In the NT, its about forgiveness, etc. The laws purpose was to show that we in our own acts, deeds, and works cannot fulfill it. Looking to Jesus gives us peace with our sins knowing He has overcome them all.
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Post by mike on Mar 4, 2019 12:49:27 GMT -6
Yes, in the OT, when people died, they do not go to Heaven but to Abraham's bosom and the unrepentant sinners go to the Sheol. After Jesus's sacrifice, the saved goes to Heaven and the unrepentant sinners go to Hell. I remember reading from Gary's article about the old law which everyone broke because of our sinful nature. And then Jesus had to die to fulfill the law. Higher standards, like Jesus said, if you plan evil in your heart, you already committed a sin before acting on that. Greater reward meaning better relationship with Heavenly Father and Son, Heaven, etc. Those who are unrepentant are getting severe punishment, cut off from God, Son and Heaven, and to Hell. That why people had harder time to stop sinning without Christ in their hearts in OT. In the NT, people can either stop sinning or refrain with the Christ in their hearts. I noticed that in the OT, sins tend to receive harsh punishment, like if you injure someone in the eye, you lose your eye. In the NT, its about forgiveness, etc. Servant - Now that youve jumped from the pan, i'm stickin you in the fire! The above that I highlighted - where do you find in the bible? I realize this teaching is held out there quite a bit, but where do you piece this together from? EDIT - I didnt see CWoods post until after I posted. A little different dialogue than what I proposed but questions none-the-less
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Post by fitz on Mar 4, 2019 13:18:13 GMT -6
Is he not referring to the parable of Lazarus and the rich man? Luke 16
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Now, I've been taught not to establish doctrine based on parables, but rather to use doctrine to interpret parables. However, most Christians believe that pre-cross & ressurection, "Abraham's Bosom" was the "Paradise Jesus referred to, and that Sheol was a place of torment (part of it). Actually, Sheol is a "place of the dead"...for both righteous and unrighteous.
"Abraham's Bosom" & "Hades" might be a better distinction between the two places separated by a "gulf".
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Post by Servant on Mar 4, 2019 14:31:44 GMT -6
Thanks for the welcome, especially mike for putting me into fire. I will try to explain, people in OT doesn't have Christ in their hearts yet. That why they can't go to Heaven but they can't go to Hell because they repent of their sins but they haven't accept Christ yet. Therefore they need to go somewhere, hence Abraham's bosom. I actually mediate and pray on this many years ago when I went to couple of funerals etc then I research and found out from the Bible about Abraham's bosom, Paradise, etc. Jesus said to the criminal on the cross that he will see him in Paradise but remember, it was before He actually died but anyway, you know the history. People in the OT thought they can stop sinning but they can't without the Lord's help. In short, that why Christ has to fulfill the Law. In NT, accepting Christ has made a new creature inside you, your sinful old life has been killed off, no need to keep doing sinful habits, etc. About people who think that they are better than others because they think they sin less, actually, they sin worse. I notice that from what I have seen in other people these days. Also, they didn't realize that they had fallen into the same trap that the Pharisee got into. It reminds me about when the Bible said to remove the log out of your eye then remove the speck of your brother's eye.
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Post by mike on Mar 4, 2019 14:51:29 GMT -6
Servant said: AMEN!! always a good reminder
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Post by rt on Mar 4, 2019 15:10:42 GMT -6
I think taking the mark is just an outward sign of a person's final refusal of Christ. I don't think that it will alter people genetically (although at this point in history anything is possible). And after reading the article and considering the character of God and His Word, I think it does make sense that He would have a book that would record everyone ever born giving all a chance at salvation, then as they choose or reject (based on faith alone) their name is kept or blotted out. Only He knows when that final rejection is.
If your name is blotted out, then it's like it was never written to begin with. Thus, those with the mark are not found written in His book.
You make a good point here, that if someone's name is blotted out it's like it was never there.
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Post by mike on Mar 4, 2019 15:19:57 GMT -6
^^^^Kinda the same way our sin is removed
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Post by barb84 on Mar 4, 2019 15:20:03 GMT -6
It is my understanding that in ancient cities there was a roll or record book of the citizens in that city. If a person committed a crime or did something the city fathers disapproved of, then their name could be blotted out of the roll. When we are saved we cannot do anything that would make Jesus blot our name out of His book.
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Post by rt on Mar 4, 2019 15:29:01 GMT -6
Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out {4229. machah - to wipe, wipe out} of my book.
Deut 9:14 Let me alone, that I may destroy {8045. shamad - to be exterminated or destroyed} them, and blot out {4229. machah - to wipe, wipe out} their name from under heaven: and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater than they.
Deut 32:26 I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease {7673. {shabath - to cease, desist, rest} from among men:
Psalm 51:1 {{To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba. }} Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out {4229. machah - to wipe, wipe out} my transgressions.
2 Kings 14:27 And the LORD said not that he would blot out {4229. machah - to wipe, wipe out} the name of Israel from under heaven: but he saved them by the hand of Jeroboam the son of Joash.
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out {1813 exaleiphó - to wipe out, erase, obliterate} his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
I had noticed this many times through the OT when the Lord blots out a name or people from under heaven. - I'm in for discussion Mike, most of these passages aren't related to the book of life, yet I do see some common ideas. To have your name blotted out from under heaven, means that you will no longer be remembered on earth, that you will have no progeny to carry on your family name. Likewise with our sin, God blots it out, he no longer remembers it, we are forgiven and no longer found guilty. The book of life though is unique, in that it appears that there are some who are recorded there who may have their names wiped from the book. The book of life is essentially a list of those who are declared righteous, who inherit eternal life. So what does it mean that there is this potential to have one'e name removed or blotted out from it? This is why I cannot look at it as a list of those who have decided to trust in Christ, whose names are written down when they come to faith. Because if that is so, then to have one's name blotted out, means they lose their salvation. However if it is a list of those who have lived life on planet earth, and their names are blotted out when they reject Christ then to me that makes more sense. When those die who have rejected Christ, their names are erased, there is no record of them having ever been written in it. We also know that since God is all knowing and eternal, that He would have foreknowledge of those who would accept Christ and those who would reject Him. So does this then satisfy the perimeters of the passage? Or am I off in left field?
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