Jesus' Olivet Discourse & The Rapture

Feb 28, 2020 18:56:07 GMT -6 Natalie said:

venge ,

Just wanting some clarification on this sentence from you. 

I thought this to be interesting because the bride is not wearing filthy garments, but white ones.

(edited to add this one too) and this, Do you have Scripture that supports this?

As previously to this episode, she was not arraigned in white as a saint.

When we believe in Christ, aren't we given His righteousness which would be symbolized by the white garments?  Therefore, the bride is never ever in filthy garments.  Filthy garments are worn by those who are trying to gain righteousness by their works, not by faith.

I guess my understanding of "fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints" corresponds with Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. 

By His righteousness we do our good deeds that He has set before us.  That's why we are dressed in white, because of what He has done.  We are made clean the moment we believe.  (Ps 51:7; Isaiah 1:18)

Natalie, @natalie,   I had read that the white garments represents the righteous acts/ deeds of the saints - the bride of Christ , but you articulated it better than I could, and you have the verses.   Thank you.  ;-)  

I don't pretend to be the voice of anyone else, but I know that these verses and this concept is precisely why many believe that the Tribulation is NOT for the Bride, - it's NOT for the Church, because the Bride doesn't need to be purified.  She already believes. 

It doesn't fit the wedding model, given to us by Paul and Christ, and it's totally contrary to real  weddings,  from ancient Jewish times.   

I process the world with word pictures and images.   It's like one prophet saying -  I'll be at the Green Lady", and another prophet says,   OH, and the treasure will be beside the Golden Door.   

     And a third prophet says,  I'm coming and "I'll be huddled with the tired and poor."       These so-called clues sound like they are describing totally different things.

To a casual reader, or a person who is not from the US,  these descriptions sound blatantly contradictory.  Something that is Green is not Golden.   It's only when we harmonize history and poetry and idioms of American culture, that it is unmistakably clear that the place is the Statue of Liberty,  - the copper lady, which turns green with age, and the words of the poem inscribed at the base.   "Send me your tired, your poor, the huddled masses yearning to breathe free,  . . . I lift my lamp beside the Golden Door. " 

I constantly hold my in mind that we are all watchmen, and that things will likely not all play out exactly like we think, or have been taught.  My views have changed and progressed a lot over 5 years,  and I'm so blessed to be a part of the journey with you. 

Here's just another thought regarding watchmen - it's from a huge fort on a hill, - the Castle Compound in Krakow, Poland.  It has many Turrets, and walls and walkways and many tiny windows from which archers could shoot out, from a wide angle inside, but it was nearly impossible to shoot in,  and many vantage points on all sides, looking down to the river.      If ten people were all watching round the clock,  without sleeping, they couldn't "see it all".   It takes scores of watchmen, all angles, and all at different times of day, to watch together,   to keep the enemy from engaging a sneak attack.    If everyone was convinced that the attack was coming from one side at early morning, the fortress would be vulnerable because we need the different perspectives.   It's OK that we don't all agree.   It makes us better watchmen.     

Blessings, 

Disciple4life

Feb 28, 2020 20:39:18 GMT -6 Natalie said:

disciple4life , So, I was thinking tonight...Jacob was tricked into marrying Leah, and what did Laban say to him, "Complete the week of this one" It supports the Jewish tradition of a wedding week.

I don't necessarily agree with you though that the parable of the virgins is about the rapture. In the parable, the Groom is returning to attend the wedding banquet/feast. Not the wedding (although some translations use the word wedding, the study I was looking at said that the word should be translated as the wedding feast which occurs after the wedding.) This means that the Bride is with Him not waiting for Him since the feast is after the week. The parable deals with Daniel's 70th week.

Hello Natalie, thanks so much for the reply. I would really love to see the study you mentioned. ;-) Of course, as you and many know, I am a big believer in the concept of the Feasts as "Appointed Times" and their significance as signposts, or markers for the Second Advent [ my use of Second Advent being the rapture, whenever that occurs in relation to the tribulation, the events of the tribulation itself and the second coming.]

I don't mean that I'm interested to argue or debate - I'm really passionate about studying things out and really searching what scripture says, - not simply what many pastors simply parrot.

After many years - a lifetime of being taught that the "One was taken, and the other left" referred to the rapture, my own study as well as insights of some other watchmen, it became totally clear that the ones taken, were not the sheep, - Not Christians, but rather goats- nonbelievers being taken away for punishment.   venge and others were right.  ;-)   It just takes some people longer to see what has been obvious to others.     

I use this as an example of how myriads of Christians and especially pastors conflate the Rapture [Day of Christ] with the Second Coming [ Day of the Lord] and this has been the cause of centuries of confusion.

And this is why I also always denote Second Advent, vs Rapture, Harpazo.               

OK, here's another little word picture, from your Scots-Irish-French-Jewish-American Otter friend, who has spent 15 years living in 3 countries, and working with internationals from approx. 35 countries.   

There is Football,             and             way over here,          American Football.

        Football                         and                 way over here,             American Football

            Football                         and                     way over here                 American Football.   

            Then there are some Americans scratching their heads,  saying

        "Wait,  isn't that all the same?"    

                    And all my international friends from Poland, Russia, Ukraine, Germany, Nigeria, Japan, South Korea, Denmark, and every country on planet earth, are all scratching their heads, and saying "Wait, Americans think that is football?"    

I will pm you my email,  Natalie    

Blessings, friends

Marantha

Mar 1, 2020 9:27:24 GMT -6 venge said:

Feb 28, 2020 17:23:41 GMT -6 venge said:

disciple4life ,

disciple4life ,
"Re-bumping this question and cleaned it up so that you would not get distracted.  "    Really?  





"I look forward to your respectful reply."     Really? 

Here's my reply, as respectfully as I can say it   -

I see the Wedding ceremony and the marriage celebration supper, or "marriage supper of the lamb" as listed in the Rev 19 as being very closely linked in time, the wedding first and the supper following, much like in Western wedding traditions.  

I See the traditional and historical Jewish wedding used over and over as a template,  of how things will be,  and this pattern being used by OT prophets and NT writers and Christ himself,  NOT to Trick us, but so that we will "NOT be surprised like a thief" a clear and well-documented Jewish idiom for the Temple Priest.   

I see the wedding occurring at Revelation 4, which corresponds to Feast of Trumpets, when there is a Shout,  - corresponding to the wedding in Matt 25, and corresponding to Paul's description of the rapture/Harpazo in I Corinthians 15 with the "Last Trumpet"  which again, is an unmistakably clear reference to "Tekia Gadolah" the 100th blast at what occasion???    Feast of Trumpets,    -- and which one of the many themes is  what ??   Resurrection, and Wedding of the Messiah.

I see the Bride as already being pure, because of the righteous acts, and Christ's righteousness imputed to us - and no evidence anywhere of the bride wearing filthy garments, or needed to be punished or purified.

I see the bride being literally lifted up, [as the bride is literally and physically lifted up and carried on a pallet/ litter] in Revelation 4, when there is a shout of a trumpet, and Christ says "Come up here".     

The bride is concealed in the wedding chamber for 7 days, - corresponding to the 7 year tribulation and corresponding to the 7 years Jacob worked for his bride. 

I see the marriage supper of the lamb - at the end of Revelation, after the tribulation,  -[The Second coming or Day of the Lord] and being closely linked to the start of the millennial reign, in which the last or 7th Feast will be celebrated every year, by all nations of the Earth,  Jew and Gentiles.  

I see scriptural support in the Tanakh [Old Testament] and the New Testament for this happening at Midnight, but at this time  i'm not fully convinced or dogmatic that that it actually means literal 12:00 midnight in Jerusalem.  

I see all clues of Christ and Paul being harmonized and pointing to the same thing- to the Feasts, which are a shadow of things to come, and the word is also translated as "rehearsal".  A practice for the real event, in which the same songs, or acts of the play or wedding ceremony is done - not something totally different.  

This is my position as best as I can articulate it from scripture, and extra-Biblical sources such as the Talmud, Midrash [Jewish commentaries on Jewish traditions and the Torah] and Jewish practices. 

  I don't think or feel I have all the answers, and have changed many views which I was taught, based on new information of other watchmen, and digging into scripture myself.   I know that many people have different views on end times, sequence of events of rapture, identity of two witnesses, who the AC is, and what starts the Tribulation, and the location of the 3rd temple.   I don't consider these to be "Deal breakers" or Things that are litmos tests to prove one's Salvation.    On many things, people will just disagree.    That's OK.  ;-)

My brother,   I and others have respectfully asked you repeatedly, to simply support your position from scripture on various things, and you don't , instead, making comments about peoples' hearts and ears not open to truth.   

Then, you ask me to give you an answer  to your question above, but only to use scripture, which is not the same standard you follow.   

I answered the question, with two passages above.   I'm quite certain that the one in Revelation is the one you wanted me to list.  

Perhaps you could  leave out the denigrating remarks above  and just simply give us some scriptures and or sources from History or the Talmud or the Midrash to support your position,  then people will be more willing to engage.  

Blessings, 

Maranatha,    

Disciple4life