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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2017 21:26:34 GMT -6
I believe the Two Witnesses believe and are followers of Jesus, I don't think they will be anti-christ.
The Two Witnesses are talked about in chapter 11, before the sign in chapter 12, it is possible the Two Witnesses death and going to heaven is the first half of the main rapture, when dead in Christ will rise first.
God word is very complex, having many levels.
Often when I see the two olive trees, I think of the Christians (wild branches) and the Jews (normal branches). God's two covenants, the old and the new. I could see a massive killing of Jews(that believe in Jesus) and Christians then the bodies are left dead in Jerusalem for three and half day (this is a Muslim insult, they believe 24 hour max) until the first half of the rapture happens.
So the olive trees to me may be a group, and the lamp stands my be two individuals.
Many people have had dreams and visions about a great earthquake happening right before the rapture, in the chapter 11 a major earthquake killing 7000 is noted.
The great thing is we will know what is happening when we see news reports.
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Post by watchmanjim on Aug 8, 2017 23:29:59 GMT -6
Whatif-- Or unless they're a special case. But I really really think it's going to be someone God sends down from Heaven, or something similar. Elijah and Moses, or another similar pair-- Elijah and Enoch, Elijah and John, etc. etc.
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Post by whatif on Aug 9, 2017 7:10:39 GMT -6
True, it could be a special case, watchmanjim, but I agree with the speculation that it will be 2 men of God known from the Bible.
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Post by watchmanjim on Aug 9, 2017 8:13:24 GMT -6
Regardless, these two guys mentioned haven't started doing miracles yet, have they?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2017 16:37:14 GMT -6
It is possible miracles are happening now, even if it is two different unknown people that are at work out of the public eye.
I believe droughts are happening around the world as we speak, I just got off the phone with my family in the midwest they got a freaky little rain the summer. They live in swampy area.
I heard in the news the Gulf of Mexico this summer has the largest dead zone in record, that water turning to blood.
The area that I live has been hit by the plague of dengue and Zika Virus recently.
Revelation 11:6New International Version (NIV)
6 They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.
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Post by socalexile on Aug 9, 2017 20:14:08 GMT -6
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Post by watchmanjim on Aug 10, 2017 10:50:18 GMT -6
Good catch. However, my hunch is that this is a precursor to the judgment of the sea, and not the beginning of the judgment itself. That judgment will not just kill the fish, it will also destroy the ships.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2017 16:14:56 GMT -6
Good catch. However, my hunch is that this is a precursor to the judgment of the sea, and not the beginning of the judgment itself. That judgment will not just kill the fish, it will also destroy the ships. A interesting fact during about WW2 1/3 of the war ships and supply ships with sailors sank, thrown into the sea, fulfilling the second trumpet. Some of the photos of sinking battleships looked like "huge mountain, all ablaze". The battleships look like a mountains when viewing them from the front or back. Revelation 8:8-9 New International Version (NIV) 8 The second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned into blood, 9 a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.   I believe it may be fulfilled a 2nd time in a larger scale, large mountain size burning asteroid striking a ocean destroying all sea life but that will be cause by an angle not the Two witnesses. |
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Post by watchmanjim on Aug 10, 2017 23:01:09 GMT -6
Yes, WWII shipping loss was at best, a harbinger of things to come, and not the actual prophecy being fulfilled. Nothing "like a mountain" was cast into the sea during that war, and I take the prophecy to be at least literal enough that there will be something very like a burning mountain, cast into the sea. . . and a large meteor fits that description.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2017 0:39:28 GMT -6
Yes, WWII shipping loss was at best, a harbinger of things to come, and not the actual prophecy being fulfilled. Nothing "like a mountain" was cast into the sea during that war, and I take the prophecy to be at least literal enough that there will be something very like a burning mountain, cast into the sea. . . and a large meteor fits that description. I meteor is less likely, it moves so fast a human eye would not be able it see it and it is not shaped like a mountain. Here is an example photo of a mountain from wikipedia. It looks like a battleship shape, matching the photo above. I believe a Battleship is what John saw in his vision during 2nd trumpet, but I also agree it is a lesser harbinger of what is to come. Meteors are round, like a large boulder.  |
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Post by watchmanjim on Aug 11, 2017 1:06:18 GMT -6
Not all meteors are round. And not all mountains are shaped alike. Just saying.  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2017 2:00:09 GMT -6
We can also look other words for meaning, for clues, it best is to look at the greek words.
"something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea" The word thrown is balló: to throw, cast in greek
The sinking battleship would look similar to a "casting of nets" sinking in the water.
The definition for balló is often used in as lessor force "often, in the weaker sense: I place, put, drop."
Greek has many powerful and fast words that could be used that would better fit the speed and force of a meteors.
balló: to throw, cast
Original Word: βάλλω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: balló
Phonetic Spelling: (bal'-lo)
Short Definition: I cast, throw, rush, put, place, drop
Definition: (a) I cast, throw, rush, (b) often, in the weaker sense: I place, put, drop.
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Post by mike on Aug 11, 2017 8:12:29 GMT -6
We can also look other words for meaning, for clues, it best is to look at the greek words. "something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea" The word thrown is balló: to throw, cast in greek The sinking battleship would look similar to a "casting of nets" sinking in the water. The definition for balló is often used in as lessor force "often, in the weaker sense: I place, put, drop." Greek has many powerful and fast words that could be used that would better fit the speed and force of a meteors. balló: to throw, cast Original Word: βάλλω Part of Speech: Verb Transliteration: balló Phonetic Spelling: (bal'-lo) Short Definition: I cast, throw, rush, put, place, drop Definition: (a) I cast, throw, rush, (b) often, in the weaker sense: I place, put, drop. Jimla, I recently read the 15 page thread on Revelation posted by RT. Unfortunately I cant locate the thread to link for you, maybe someone else knows where. EDIT - Found it unsealed.boards.net/thread/133/revised-view-pretrib-rapture My point in prefacing that is in that thread there is great information (page 11'ish) on how ancient Hebrewsviewed things and wrote in those days. This was a real eye opener for me. One example was that they believed the could see the future but not the past. Why? because the past is behind you and the future in front of you. Another was "like a ram" and "like a tree" the Hebrew word for tree and ram was the same for each verse. Why? to signify the strength of these things. You seem to question the Rev 8:8 verse " Then the second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned to blood," ... Like a great mountain does not specifically mean it was or is a mountain. It could be a mountain. It could be a meteor. It could be a "super volcano" (caldera) explosion where large masses of flaming earth are scattered everywhere (yellowstone?). Remember that John is seeing things that are difficult to describe exactly or precisely. Mountains and earthquakes were also allegories for governments and political uprisings. Just some food for thought. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2017 12:47:23 GMT -6
We can also look other words for meaning, for clues, it best is to look at the greek words. "something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea" The word thrown is balló: to throw, cast in greek The sinking battleship would look similar to a "casting of nets" sinking in the water. The definition for balló is often used in as lessor force "often, in the weaker sense: I place, put, drop." Greek has many powerful and fast words that could be used that would better fit the speed and force of a meteors. balló: to throw, cast Original Word: βάλλω Part of Speech: Verb Transliteration: balló Phonetic Spelling: (bal'-lo) Short Definition: I cast, throw, rush, put, place, drop Definition: (a) I cast, throw, rush, (b) often, in the weaker sense: I place, put, drop. Jimla, I recently read the 15 page thread on Revelation posted by RT. Unfortunately I cant locate the thread to link for you, maybe someone else knows where. My point in prefacing that is in that thread there is great information (page 11'ish) on how ancient Hebrewsviewed things and wrote in those days. This was a real eye opener for me. One example was that they believed the could see the future but not the past. Why? because the past is behind you and the future in front of you. Another was "like a ram" and "like a tree" the Hebrew word for tree and ram was the same for each verse. Why? to signify the strength of these things. You seem to question the Rev 8:8 verse " Then the second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned to blood," ... Like a great mountain does not specifically mean it was or is a mountain. It could be a mountain. It could be a meteor. It could be a "super volcano" (caldera) explosion where large masses of flaming earth are scattered everywhere (yellowstone?). Remember that John is seeing things that are difficult to describe exactly or precisely. Mountains and earthquakes were also allegories for governments and political uprisings. Just some food for thought. I am only sharing what appeared to be unsealed to me, at one time I thought I was so wise until I was shown how little I knew by God, now I only depend on the Holy Spirit's wisdom for understanding the bible. I don't trust in myself or other human teachings or other human understanding. I spend more time trying to prove to myself wrong than what believe is correct. |
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Post by mike on Aug 11, 2017 13:10:47 GMT -6
I hear you on that note. I want to know the right things, but in no way insist on being correct. I know a few things are certain and they are the foundation of why we believe Death, Burial, Resurrection. After that there is much that we can all agree on but there are other areas where no one has a corner on the interpretation. We are to be like iron sharpening iron after all |
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