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Post by boraddict on Nov 5, 2017 21:52:16 GMT -6
My work is from the King James Version.
First of all I would like to thank the people in charge of this discussion board for the opportunity to share my work. I have written several pamphlets beginning in 2013 with a work that I titled "The Revelation Index." Unfortunately, no one could understand it. That is so funny because I put my heart and soul into it. At that time I had taken it upon myself to explain The Book of Revelation to my sister, and she was not interested. So, really, I was explaining The Book of Revelation to myself. As I passed out the Revelation Index and subsequent revisions under different names I became marked as a crazy person, and I did not care about that. In fact, the neighbor girls told my teenage daughters that their father said I was crazy. Like I said, I am Okay with that.
Sometime prior to my first writing in 2013 I noticed that four verses exist within the Book of Revelation that announce the beginning of four visions. These four verses are: Verse 1:11 that states "What thou seest write in a book," Verse 4:1 that states "come up hither and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter," Verse 17:1 that states "I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore," and Verse 21:9 that states "come hither I will shew thee the bride the Lamb's wife."
Knowing the beginning points of these four visions became critical when I came to understand that John had moved the chapters around in the second half of the book. But, I do not want to get ahead of myself.
Also, I came to understand that The Book of Revelation has four judgments. These are referenced in Verses 8:7-12 as the four angels. So I need to tread lightly here because the four judgments are not four but three, and the four angels that represent the three judgments may from time to time represent only one and not all of the three judgments. I realize this sounds crazy but I will try to show it to you in scripture.
The four angels in Verse 7:1 are the four judgments. This is repeated three times in this verse through parallelism; a literary devise used by biblical scholars in which the first statement is repeated a second time but in another way. However, in verse 7:1 it is repeated three more times.
Verse 7:1, "And after these things I saw four angels." John sees the four judgments
"Standing on the four corners of the earth" Again, these are the four judgments
"Holding the four winds of the earth" Again these are the four judgments
"That the wind (judgment) should not blow on the earth (judgment), nor on the sea (judgment), nor on any tree (judgment).
Continuing to Verse 7:2, John the author of The Book of Revelation then sees an angel coming from the east having the seal of the living God. That is, John saw a judgment in Verse 7:1 that he states through parallelism four times as four judgments; however, it was only one judgment that he actually saw taking place at that time. He simply is saying that he saw a judgment and references it repeatedly four times as four judgments. Then in Verse 7:2 he sees Gods response which is to instruct an angel from the east to seal the 144,000. That first judgment in Verse 7:1 is the first woe as referenced in Verses 9:1-12.
In Verse 7:3 John states that the remaining three judgments will not occur until after the 144,000 are sealed. However, like I stated above there are only three judgments in total and they are the three woes. The first took place prior to the 144,000 being sealed leaving two judgments remaining. That is, the first woe is past and two woes remain beginning in Verse 7:2. This section of The Book of Revelation ends at Verse 8:5 so the second and third woes must occur prior to Verse 8:6 and they do at Verses 8:2-5.
The story begins again at Verse 8:6 in which the four judgments are repeated again in Verses 8:7-12 that are not four judgments but three as referenced in Verse 8:13 as the three woes.
The first is Verses 9:1-12
The second is in Verses 9:13-11:14
The third is in Verses 11:15-19
This ends the first half of the book.
The second half of the book was harder because it is out of order; although, I did not realize it at the time. At first I thought the second half started at Verse 18:4 because that is where Lord Jesus calls to his people. I worked from that premise and found the flow of the vision in Chapter 17 that was interrupted by the removal of Chapter 13 between Verses 17:6 and 17:7. It was then that I realized that Chapter 17 is the beginning of the second half of the book.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Nov 5, 2017 22:04:26 GMT -6
Welcome boraddict , I saw that you replied in to socalexile 's thread to start. Thanks for starting this one, as you seem to have some interesting points. Coming out of reading Hillary's article about the sixth seal on the Home page and all the comments she received, hang on to your hat! you may get quite a few here. Since you are calling it a chiasm, can you rewrite what you posted in chiasm format? |
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Post by boraddict on Nov 5, 2017 22:30:26 GMT -6
Welcome boraddict , I saw that you replied in to socalexile 's thread to start. Thanks for starting this one, as you seem to have some interesting points. Coming out of reading Hillary's article about the sixth seal on the Home page and all the comments she received, hang on to your hat! you may get quite a few here. Since you are calling it a chiasm, can you rewrite what you posted in chiasm format? I should have mentioned that I needed to take a break. I will finish the organizational summary for the second half of the book and then include the Chiasmus. |
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Post by socalexile on Nov 6, 2017 4:46:40 GMT -6
IMO, chiastic structures in literature are best understood today in a visual format. Do you happen to have a "roadmap"?
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Post by mike on Nov 6, 2017 6:45:52 GMT -6
boraddict Just read the first piece. I'm a little slow to follow so I will mostly follow along and let those who are better in this area ask the more pointed questions, but in your first post in this thread I have a question for clarification. I've edited the above quote to help express my question. The sentence structure does not show 4 judgments but 3. The wind does the blowing on 3 things earth, sea & tree. Are these 3 of the 4 judgments? What is the 4th or are you getting to it further in the thread? What am I missing?
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Post by boraddict on Nov 6, 2017 9:25:47 GMT -6
Yes Mike you have it correctly. However, there are multiple things taking place in this fourth section of Verse 7:1. Not only are the earth, sea, and tree representative of the three woes, but the word "wind" brings the number of judgments from three to four for the parallelism. This is similar to Verse 18:8 in which "mourning" is included as one of the four plagues. Common sense tells us that mourning is not a plague; however, included along with death, famine, and burned with fire, then the number of plagues increases from three to four. Likewise, the word "wind" in this fourth section of Verse 7:1 is not a judgment. However, to make this section parallel to the other three sections in Verse 7:1, John has used the word "wind" to bring the number of judgments from three to four.
Secondly, John is saying in this fourth section of Verse 7:1 that "the wind should not blow" meaning the judgment should not begin upon the earth, sea, and tree. This is more clearly stated in the next two verses, 7:2-3, in which an angel from the east instructs the four angels that are the judgments of the earth and the sea. That is, the first woe is past and two woes remain, and they are the judgment upon the earth and the judgment upon the sea.
Further, in Verse 7:3 the judgment upon the trees that was mentioned in the fourth section of Verse 7:1 is included along with the earth and the sea. This shows that the fourth section of Verse 7:1 was not only referencing the three woes in addition to the four judgments, but also the remaining two woes. In other words, the fourth section of Verse 7:1 references three things: (1) the three woes as in the earth, sea, and tree, (2) the four judgments as in the wind, earth, sea, and tree, (3) the two remaining woes as in the earth, and the sea. The inclusion of the "trees" in Verse 7:3 simply reinforces that there are three woes and not that "trees" it is literally one of the woes yet to come.
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Post by boraddict on Nov 6, 2017 10:40:28 GMT -6
IMO, chiastic structures in literature are best understood today in a visual format. Do you happen to have a "roadmap"? Hi socalexile, I did try to upload some of my 2013-14 chiasmus work and will try again. The key is the second half of the book that begins with Chapter 17. John moved the chapters such that Chapter 17 is the center of the chiasmus of the antithesis. Chapter 12
Chapter 13
Chapter 14
Chapter 15
Chapter 16
Chapter 17 The vision begins here
Chapter 18
Chapter 19
Chapter 20
Chapter 21
Chapter 22
Thus, the center of the chiasmus for The Book of Revelation is Chapter 17 as follows:
Chapter 1 introduction
Chapters 2-3 the message to the churches
Chapters 4-6 the resurrection of the justified
Chapters 7-11 the three woes
Chapter 12 the exodus (This chapter was originally Chapter 14)
Chapter 13 The beast executes the first woe (This chapter was Verses 7-24 of the original Chapter 12)
Chapter 17 The vision of the judgments begins here (This chapter was Verses 1-6 and 25-36 of the original Chapter 12)
Chapter 18 The angel comes to the earth (This chapter was originally Chapter 13)
Chapter 19 Lord Jesus executes the second woe (This chapter was originally Chapter 15)
Chapters 15-16 Lord Jesus executes the third woe and then treads the wine press alone (These two Chapters were originally Chapters 16 and 17)
Chapter 14 Lord Jesus at Zion with his army of 144,000 and John reminisces on how they got there (This Chapter was originally Chapter 18)
Chapter 20 the resurrection of the damned (This chapter was originally Chapter 19)
Chapters 21-22 The City of New Jerusalem descends to the earth (These two Chapters were originally Chapters 20 and 21)
As you can see there is a lot of explaining to do. The chiasmus begins in the center, with the original Chapter 12. That is, Chapter 17 is where the second half of The Book of Revelation begins. It is the original Chapter 12, before John moved the chapters. Thus, the order of the antithesis is: Verses 17:1-6, Chapter 13, Verses 17:7-18, Chapter 18, Chapter 12, Chapter 19, Chapters 15-16, Chapter 14, Chapter 20, Chapters 21-22. The order of the chiasmus for The Book of Revelation is: Verses 17:1-6, Chapter 13, Verses 17:7-18. Chapter 18, Chapter 12, Chapter 19, Chapters 7-11, Chapters 15-16, Chapters 4-6, Chapter 14, Chapters 2-3, Chapter 20, Chapter 1, Chapters 21-22. Actually, the last two parallels (Chapters 2-3 to Chapter 20 and Chapter 1 to Chapters 21-22) are not so critical to the overall story of the judgments.
Like I said, I hope to get my work posted soon. I am not real computer savvy.
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Post by mike on Nov 6, 2017 10:45:22 GMT -6
very interesting boraddict...looking forward to hearing the synopsis of the rest. Anyone here that has experience will try to help you get your info posted |
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Post by yardstick on Nov 6, 2017 23:14:41 GMT -6
boraddict, you've made the claim that John changed the chapter order. Where or how did you discover this?
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Post by boraddict on Nov 6, 2017 23:38:58 GMT -6
Continuing with my introduction; I discovered four visions and sometime later four judgments. During this period of time I distributed draft copies of my first work, the Revelation Index.
One evening I was visited by two men from a local church. They were looking for a mutual acquaintance, so I compelled them to take one of my draft copies of the index and thought nothing of it. However, the next morning when I awoke, I clearly understood that John had moved some of the chapters in the second half of the book. I attributed this revelation to the fact that I had shared my index the previous night; although, I do not know for sure. Thus, through revelation I learned that John had moved some of the chapters.
Then one day while working on Verse 17:7, I tried to identify the vision of the woman upon the beast, and the vision of the beast. After all, the verse states:"And the angel said unto me Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carried her which hath the seven heads and ten horns." It was easy to find the vision of the woman in Verses 17:4-6: however, there was no vision of the beast that carried her. I found this perplexing because in Verses 17:8-18 the angel explains not only the woman that John saw, but also the beast that carried her. Thus, the vision of the beast was missing.
I made multiple attempts to find the vision of the beast in Chapter 17 and could not. Then a light went off in my head that the vision of the beast was in Chapter 13.
Since the vision of the beast was in Chapter 13, and the angel stated in Verse 17:7 that he was going to explain the beast that carried the woman, and he does so in Verses 17:8-18, then the vision of the beast in Chapter 13 must precede Verse 17:7.
Upon realizing that Chapter 13 belonged between Verses 17:6 and 17:7, and reflecting upon the revelation mentioned above, I then understood that I could discover the original order of the chapters in The Book of Revelation.
Since there were two visions in the first half of the book, and two visions in the second half of the book, and the first vision in the first half of the book was in Chapter 1, then the first vision in the second half of the book must be in Chapter 12. Therefore, Chapter 17 in which the vision begins in the second half of the book was the original Chapter 12. I worked from this premise placing each chapter in order according to the story line of the four judgments. Thus, after the vision of the woman and the beast in Chapters 17 and 13 and the angels explanation of those visions in Chapter 17, then the angel became a participant in the vision in Chapter 18. It was there that Lord Jesus called for his people to come out of Babylon and the next thing that must occur is the rapture to the exodus in Chapter 12. Following the rapture was the meeting in Chapter 19 and the subsequent destruction of the beast. The saints rejoiced over their victory in Chapter 15 and then was the destruction of the wicked in Chapter 16. I had learned early on that Chapter 14 was a reminiscing chapter so Chapter 14 concludes the story of the four judgments. However, as I have previously explained, they are not four judgments but three woes.
1st woe - the destruction of Babylon that morphs into the persecution of the saints
2nd woe - the destruction of the beast by the army of God
3rd woe - the destruction of the wicked by Lord Jesus when he treads the wine press
I listed this chiasmus above and am showing how it reduces into what I call the prime chiasmus
Chapter 1 introduction
Chapters 2-3 the message to the churches
Chapters 4-6 the resurrection of the justified
Chapters 7-11 the three woes
Chapter 12 the exodus (This chapter was originally Chapter 14)
Chapter 13 The beast executes the first woe (This chapter was Verses 7-24 of the original Chapter 12)
Chapter 17 The vision of the judgments begins here (This chapter was Verses 1-6 and 25-36 of the original Chapter 12)
Chapter 18 The angel comes to the earth (This chapter was originally Chapter 13)
Chapter 19 Lord Jesus executes the second woe (This chapter was originally Chapter 15)
Chapters 15-16 Lord Jesus executes the third woe and then treads the wine press alone (These two Chapters were originally Chapters 16 and 17)
Chapter 14 Lord Jesus at Zion with his army of 144,000 and John reminisces on how they got there (This Chapter was originally Chapter 18)
Chapter 20 the resurrection of the damned (This chapter was originally Chapter 19)
Chapters 21-22 The City of New Jerusalem descends to the earth (These two Chapters were originally Chapters 20 and 21)
The Prime Chiasmus
Chapter 1 introduction
Chapters 2-3 the message to the churches
Chapters 4-6 the resurrection of the justified
Chapters 7-11 the three woes
Chapter 12, 13, 17, 18, 19, 15, 16, 14 the three woes
Chapter 20 the resurrection of the damned
Chapters 21-22 The City of New Jerusalem descends to the earth
Another interesting aspect of the chiasmus is that when the woes are removed the emphisis is upon the resurrection
Chapter 1 introduction
Chapters 2-3 the message to the churches
Chapters 4-6 the resurrection of the justified
Chapter 20 the resurrection of the damned
Chapters 21-22 The City of New Jerusalem descends to the earth
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Post by mike on Nov 7, 2017 7:20:55 GMT -6
boraddict Just a quick question regarding the structure of your theory on Rev. If I were to attempt to read the book, which order would I read the chapters to make the most sense? Would it be to start with 12 then continue (where? 13, 17, 18, 19, 15, 16, 14?). Would put the "chronology" down for us? I would like to read it with this understanding and see how it makes sense (or not  )
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Post by boraddict on Nov 7, 2017 7:47:50 GMT -6
Hi Mike, the order of the second half of the book is: - The vision of the woman Verses 17:1-6
- the vision of the beast Chapter 13
- the angel's explanation of the vision of the woman and the beast Verses 17:7-18
- the angel becomes part of the vision and Lord Jesus calls his people out of Babylon Chapter 18
- the Lord's people are enraptured onto the exodus Chapter 12
- the meeting and Lord Jesus make war upon and defeats the beast Chapter 19
- the victory celebration Chapter 15
- Lord Jesus treads the wine press Chapter 16
- the 144,000 with Christ at Zion and John's reminiscing on how they got there Chapter 14
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Post by mike on Nov 7, 2017 8:02:25 GMT -6
Hi Mike, the order of the second half of the book is: 1) The vision of the woman Verses 17:1-6 2) the vision of the beast Chapter 13 3) the angel's explanation of the vision of the woman and the beast Verses 17:7-18 4) the angel becomes part of the vision and Lord Jesus calls his people out of Babylon Chapter 18 5) the Lord's people are enraptured onto the exodus Chapter 12 6) the meeting and Lord Jesus make war upon and defeats the beast Chapter 19 7) the victory celebration Chapter 15 8) Lord Jesus treads the wine press Chapter 16 9) the 144,000 with Christ at Zion and John's reminiscing on how they got there Chapter 14 Sorry if I wasnt clear enough I wanted to know about the whole book of Rev. Is there an ordering to the "first half" as well? |
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Post by mike on Nov 7, 2017 8:25:03 GMT -6
Did I just figure out your user name boraddict! I think I did! Been wondering what b.o.r. meant, now I get it! 💡 |
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Post by socalexile on Nov 7, 2017 9:16:46 GMT -6
One problem: there wasn't chapters in the Bible in John's day. That was added around the 11-12th century.
Also, there is already a chiasm in Revelation within the current order, as was pictured in the original thread. What necessitates this change?
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