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Post by mike on Nov 7, 2017 9:36:57 GMT -6
socalexile...could you provide the chiasm format for comparison or link to the thread you have?
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Post by boraddict on Nov 7, 2017 9:49:28 GMT -6
Sorry about that Mike, we crossed paths as I was editing the listing numbers. Yes to your question about the entire Book of Revelation. However, it would be a chronological harmonization rather than a straight chronology. Following is a brief synopsis. I may have missed a few verses.
1. The introduction to the Book of Revelation including the vision of Lord Jesus, Chapter 1
2. Lord Jesus' message to the churches, Chapter 2-3
3. The judgments of God, who will be able to stand? Verses 6:12-17
4. The first woe (judgment), Verses 7:1, 8:7, 9:1-12, 17:1-6, Chapter 13, Verses 17:7-18, 12:1-6
Includes:
a. The angel comes to the earth and Lord Jesus calls his people out of Babylon, Verses 7:2-3, Chapter 18, Verses 14:6-13
b. The saints of God are enraptured onto the exodus, Verses 7:4-17, 9:4, 12:6, 12:13-17
c. The saints arrive at the meeting, 19:1-10
5. The seventh seal is opened, that is, the seventh 1,000-year-period of man upon the earth begins, Verse 8:1
6. The second woe, Lord Jesus destroys the beast, Verse 8:2-5, 8:8-9, 9:13-11:14, 12:7-11, 19:11-21, 14:14-16
Includes:
a. The saints of God celebrate their victory over the beast, Verses 10:1-6, Chapter 15
b. The saints are gathered from throughout the earth
c. The temple is built in Jerusalem, Verses 10:7-11:2
d. Lord Jesus gives power unto the angel and John and then they are killed, and the resurrection of the justified begins, Verses 11:3-14
7: The third woe, Lord Jesus treads the wine press, Verses 8:10-12, 11:15-19, Chapter 16, Verses 14:17-20
8. The resurrection of the justified continues, Chapters 4-6
9. The holy city of New Jerusalem descends to the earth, Chapter 21-22
10. The resurrection of the damned, Chapter 20
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Post by boraddict on Nov 7, 2017 9:56:07 GMT -6
Did I just figure out your user name boraddict ! I think I did! Been wondering what b.o.r. meant, now I get it! 💡 That is so funny. |
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Post by boraddict on Nov 7, 2017 10:11:17 GMT -6
One problem: there wasn't chapters in the Bible in John's day. That was added around the 11-12th century. Also, there is already a chiasm in Revelation within the current order, as was pictured in the original thread. What necessitates this change? Yes I know what you mean about the Chiasmus. Originally, I had contacted a friend who has a PhD in theology and he told me that the chiasmus was the to halves of the book and there was nothing more. Thus, I believe that two halves of the book chiasmus is correct. However, depending upon the emphasis that you are perusing, then other chiasmi do exist. In my work I am looking at the four judgments specifically. Thus, the chiasmus for my work must must begin at chapter 17. Nevertheless, in the overall work of the book, the parallel linking between the chapters makes perfect since and that is what I had originally worked with when I wrote my first work, the Revelation Index. As far as the chapter breaks you are right again. I find that several of the chapter breaks are in the wrong places, especially in the first half of the book. I think the second half of the book was easier to break into chapters because they are more defined probably due to them being out of order. That is, John either wrote his work as second time and placed these chapters out of order, or, he wrote these chapters out of order during his first writing. In either case, he was simply brilliant, inspired, and directed by God. |
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Post by mike on Nov 7, 2017 11:11:43 GMT -6
Did I just figure out your user name boraddict ! I think I did! Been wondering what b.o.r. meant, now I get it! 💡 That is so funny. you have insight to something no one has figured out for over 2000 years and I figured out your user name in a day! Progress   |
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Post by boraddict on Nov 7, 2017 12:52:11 GMT -6
Thank you for your kind words Mike. I work in The Book of Revelation daily. On one occasion a few years ago my kids left for school and I was working on a verse, and then they came home from school and I was still there sitting and working on the same verse. What happened to the time?
It used to be that my record for one verse was three days except for sleep and so forth. However, I have lost track now. I was on Verses 12:1-6 for over six months. Talk about some incredible verses. I started out thinking that Verse 12:3 was a type & shadow, then realized that it was a simile. However, it took me months to prove it. Then after I felt secure in my analysis, Verse 12:12 forced me into the realization that Verses 12:1-6 were the first woe; although, they were written in terms of the early church and the Roman Empire as the beast.
It is like Isaiah using old sacrificial terms to describe the Lord's displeasure for his peoples sacrifices for salvation (Isa. 1:11). He states: "To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me?" " I am full of your burnt offerings, of rams, and the fat of fed beasts, and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats." Isaiah does not use these Old Testament sacrificial terms anywhere else in his work to the best of my knowledge. Likewise, John links to the Roman Empire in Verses 12:1-6 and does not use this symbolism anywhere else in The Book of Revelation.
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Post by socalexile on Nov 7, 2017 21:10:11 GMT -6
socalexile ...could you provide the chiasm format for comparison or link to the thread you have?    |
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Post by socalexile on Nov 7, 2017 21:14:12 GMT -6
One problem: there wasn't chapters in the Bible in John's day. That was added around the 11-12th century. Also, there is already a chiasm in Revelation within the current order, as was pictured in the original thread. What necessitates this change? Yes I know what you mean about the Chiasmus. Originally, I had contacted a friend who has a PhD in theology and he told me that the chiasmus was the to halves of the book and there was nothing more. Thus, I believe that two halves of the book chiasmus is correct. However, depending upon the emphasis that you are perusing, then other chiasmi do exist. In my work I am looking at the four judgments specifically. Thus, the chiasmus for my work must must begin at chapter 17. Nevertheless, in the overall work of the book, the parallel linking between the chapters makes perfect since and that is what I had originally worked with when I wrote my first work, the Revelation Index. As far as the chapter breaks you are right again. I find that several of the chapter breaks are in the wrong places, especially in the first half of the book. I think the second half of the book was easier to break into chapters because they are more defined probably due to them being out of order. That is, John either wrote his work as second time and placed these chapters out of order, or, he wrote these chapters out of order during his first writing. In either case, he was simply brilliant, inspired, and directed by God. You aren't simply moving chapter breaks, but rearranging the order of entire chapters, then claiming that John, the inspired writer, made a mistake and you're fixing it, then using this to promote yourself and your book(s). Sorry, you lost me. This is based on false, self-promoting premises. I'm out. I do not endorse this interpretation. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2017 21:25:54 GMT -6
Yes I know what you mean about the Chiasmus. Originally, I had contacted a friend who has a PhD in theology and he told me that the chiasmus was the to halves of the book and there was nothing more. Thus, I believe that two halves of the book chiasmus is correct. However, depending upon the emphasis that you are perusing, then other chiasmi do exist. In my work I am looking at the four judgments specifically. Thus, the chiasmus for my work must must begin at chapter 17. Nevertheless, in the overall work of the book, the parallel linking between the chapters makes perfect since and that is what I had originally worked with when I wrote my first work, the Revelation Index. As far as the chapter breaks you are right again. I find that several of the chapter breaks are in the wrong places, especially in the first half of the book. I think the second half of the book was easier to break into chapters because they are more defined probably due to them being out of order. That is, John either wrote his work as second time and placed these chapters out of order, or, he wrote these chapters out of order during his first writing. In either case, he was simply brilliant, inspired, and directed by God. You aren't simply moving chapter breaks, but rearranging the order of entire chapters, then claiming that John, the inspired writer, made a mistake and you're fixing it, then using this to promote yourself and your book(s). Sorry, you lost me. This is based on false, self-promoting premises. I'm out. I do not endorse this interpretation. Just to give another opinion of how the words in red could be interpreted. It looks to me like boraddict is saying that John intentionally arranged things the way he did and that boraddict is discovering it. |
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Post by Natalie on Nov 7, 2017 21:52:15 GMT -6
In my opinion, you are making the book of Revelation too complicated. It is a fascinating book with a lot going on, and Jesus promised a blessing to those who read it.
But, God gave it to us in the order it is in, and it should be able to be understood in that order. We shouldn't have to pick verses out of chapter 13 and move them over to 17 in order to understand what is going on.
I also don't follow some of your conclusions. For example, you say Rev 12:1-6 is about the Roman Empire. But reading the rest of chapter 12 will explain that the dragon of verse 3 is Satan, not the Roman Empire.
To me, the easiest way to understand Revelation is to take it literally unless it is specifically figurative (for example in Chapter 13 Antichrist is called a beast), and to understand that it is putting the end times prophecies from the OT into their proper order.
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Post by boraddict on Nov 7, 2017 22:00:17 GMT -6
Yes I know what you mean about the Chiasmus. Originally, I had contacted a friend who has a PhD in theology and he told me that the chiasmus was the to halves of the book and there was nothing more. Thus, I believe that two halves of the book chiasmus is correct. However, depending upon the emphasis that you are perusing, then other chiasmi do exist. In my work I am looking at the four judgments specifically. Thus, the chiasmus for my work must must begin at chapter 17. Nevertheless, in the overall work of the book, the parallel linking between the chapters makes perfect since and that is what I had originally worked with when I wrote my first work, the Revelation Index. As far as the chapter breaks you are right again. I find that several of the chapter breaks are in the wrong places, especially in the first half of the book. I think the second half of the book was easier to break into chapters because they are more defined probably due to them being out of order. That is, John either wrote his work as second time and placed these chapters out of order, or, he wrote these chapters out of order during his first writing. In either case, he was simply brilliant, inspired, and directed by God. You aren't simply moving chapter breaks, but rearranging the order of entire chapters, then claiming that John, the inspired writer, made a mistake and you're fixing it, then using this to promote yourself and your book(s). Sorry, you lost me. This is based on false, self-promoting premises. I'm out. I do not endorse this interpretation. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I should have made myself more clear. John intentionally wrote his work a second time and placed these chapters out of order, or, he intentionally wrote these wrote these chapters out of order during his first writing. John did not make a mistake, he intentionally placed the chapters in the second half of the book out of order. You made an assumption that I was saying John made a mistake and that I was fixing it. I never said that. Additionally, I do not have a book to promote. I wish I did. So your argument is unfounded because it is based upon an assumption of what my intentions are. Your argument is also unfounded because of an error that I made in being clear, and for that I am sorry and will try to do better. |
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Post by socalexile on Nov 8, 2017 1:26:46 GMT -6
The problem is, your premise is based on an unproven assumption that there are two versions of Revelation, and that you're providing esoteric knowledge that John intentionally mixed up the book, confused it (which would imply that God, through the Holy Spirit is the author of confusion in this case), and that it REALLY should be how you say it is.
All this does is add to the confusion, when the primary premise that there are two versions of Revelation has no empirical evidence whatsoever.
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Post by boraddict on Nov 8, 2017 1:28:02 GMT -6
In my opinion, you are making the book of Revelation too complicated. It is a fascinating book with a lot going on, and Jesus promised a blessing to those who read it. But, God gave it to us in the order it is in, and it should be able to be understood in that order. We shouldn't have to pick verses out of chapter 13 and move them over to 17 in order to understand what is going on. I also don't follow some of your conclusions. For example, you say Rev 12:1-6 is about the Roman Empire. But reading the rest of chapter 12 will explain that the dragon of verse 3 is Satan, not the Roman Empire. To me, the easiest way to understand Revelation is to take it literally unless it is specifically figurative (for example in Chapter 13 Antichrist is called a beast), and to understand that it is putting the end times prophecies from the OT into their proper order. Yes I know that my work is off the charts. However, the message in The Book of Revelation is hidden. The traditional method is to follow the same thing that people have been doing for two thousand years, and there are hundreds of books and interpretations. I am saying that the book is very simple. It is just a matter of understanding not only the metaphors but the linguistic devises that have been incorporated into it. For instance if I were to say to a Buddhist monk "the light of the world," he might not understand the metaphor. However, we understand it because it is common to us. If I had done my work 100 years ago then it would be common to us now as one of many interpretations. Consequently, it might be common to many Christian Churches. Notice that you do not know my name. I am not looking for fame or glory. I have no book to promote. However, I have a responsibility to God to share the knowledge that I have been given with others. That knowledge is the correct understanding of The Book of Revelation with regard to the four judgments. Please let me explain Verses 12:1-6. There are four parts: the first is the saints of God (v. 12:1-2), the second is the beast (v. 12:3-4), the third is the Lord (v. 12:5), and the fourth is the exodus (v. 12:6). Thus, beginning with part 1 as follows: Verse 12:1,
1. "There appeared a great wonder in heaven, 2. a woman clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet
3. and upon her head a crown of twelve stars."
1. The wonder in heaven is the church of Christ upon the earth
2. She has members that are the brightness of the sun meaning close to Lord Jesus, and members the brightness of the moon meaning those that are not close to Lord Jesus; nevertheless, both groups are under the covenant and have salvation. That is, they all are under her claim. They all belong to Christ.
3. At her head are the twelve apostles; thus, this is the early church at the time of the Roman Empire. However, Verse 12:1 is a type & shadow (past & future) relationship that represents the saints of today under the leadership of the twelve apostles of old. That is, they lead us via the New Testament.
Verse 12:2,
"And she being with child cried travailing in birth and pained to be delivered.
The early church was under persecution and pained to be delivered. Likewise, the saints of our time will be under persecution and pained to be delivered. Daniel 7:21 states: "I beheld and the same horn made war with the saints and prevailed against them. Rev. 13:7 states: "it was given unto him to make war with the saints and overcome them..."
Verse 12:3,
1. "And there appeared another wonder in heaven
2. and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns
3. and seven crowns upon his heads."
1. The other wonder upon the earth is Satan and his followers.
2. He (Satan) has the kingdom of the beast having seven heads meaning seven kingdoms in his ancestral line (v. 17:9-11), and ten horns meaning the false prophet (v. 13:11).
The ten horns is a metaphor that means the seventh kingdom, and the false prophet presides over that kingdom as it transitions into the eighth kingdom (Dan. 7:8, 20, 24-25, ). Thus, Verse 12:4 is referencing the beast of Chapter 13. I can show this in detail another time if you like. Nevertheless, the Chapter 13 beast is a future beast; therefore, it represents the Roman Empire in this verse. That is, since the Chapter 13 beast is a future beast and the Roman Empire is a past beast, then the relationship is not a type & shadow (past & future) relationship, but a future / past relationship. I spent some time trying to force this into a type & shadow relationship but in the end is was just a simile. Consequently, the Chapter 13 beast represents the Roman Empire in Verse 12:4. However, what is not clearly shown is that the whole thing reverses into a type & shadow because the Roman Empire represents the Chapter 13 beast as a future event. Now perhaps you can see why Verses 12:1-6 took me six months to understand. This is all about the first woe as described in Chapters 13 and 17.
3. The seven crowns are the leaders of the seven ancestral kingdoms that Satan ruled over. This simply parallels the leadership in Verse 13:1 part 3 above, and since the leaders of the early church are represented in that verse, then the leaders here are representative of the leaders of the Roman Empire. This is important in understanding the next verse.
Verse 12:4,
"And his tail" meaning the false head of government Satan, drew 1/3rd of the stars of heaven (the children of God) and "did cast them to the earth." Since 1/3 followed Satan and were cast to the earth, then the remaining 2/3rds of the children of God were born upon the earth. Keep in mind that these are not the sun and the moon of Verse 12:1 but those who follow Satan upon the earth. This is the beast and his minions and both the beast of Chapter 13 as well as the Roman Empire are represented here as those followers of Satan upon the earth. These are the people of the earth that do not have salvation.
"And the dragon" (Satan and his beast both past and future), "stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered for to devour her child as soon as it was born." Here we have the attack upon Lord Jesus as an infant. This attack came from King Herod and we all know the story. King Herod was a vicar of the Roman Empire. Here the evidence is absolutely clear that these verses are about the Roman Empire. Additionally, during our time Satan is doing everything he can to prevent the return of the Savior by destroying the saints of God; before the churches child (Lord Jesus) comes back to the earth. Although he is not born a second time, the inference is that he comes again upon the earth and we all know that this is true. There is much more to these verses but I was simply showing the evidence that Verses 12:1-6 are about the Roman Empire.
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Post by socalexile on Nov 8, 2017 1:32:00 GMT -6
You aren't simply moving chapter breaks, but rearranging the order of entire chapters, then claiming that John, the inspired writer, made a mistake and you're fixing it, then using this to promote yourself and your book(s). Sorry, you lost me. This is based on false, self-promoting premises. I'm out. I do not endorse this interpretation. Just to give another opinion of how the words in red could be interpreted. It looks to me like boraddict is saying that John intentionally arranged things the way he did and that boraddict is discovering it. That's what I said. Why is it that every time I apply some discernment to claims people make, you try to get involved to the detriment of the point? Are you still mad that I didnt agree to your attempt to find the Dragon to months ago? Because now whenever I post about something not making sense, you respond with a white-knighting post. |
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Post by boraddict on Nov 8, 2017 1:51:38 GMT -6
Just to give another opinion of how the words in red could be interpreted. It looks to me like boraddict is saying that John intentionally arranged things the way he did and that boraddict is discovering it. That's what I said. Why is it that every time I apply some discernment to claims people make, you try to get involved to the detriment of the point? Are you still mad that I didnt agree to your attempt to find the Dragon to months ago? Because now whenever I post about something not making sense, you respond with a white-knighting post. That is so funny. What is a white-knighting post? I am new to this type of stuff. I propose that you give me the hardest question that you can think of about The Book of Revelation and let us reason it out together. |
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