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Post by socalexile on Nov 9, 2017 9:14:52 GMT -6
Your misunderstanding of Israel and the church will confuse your interpretation of Revelation, and the rest of the Bible. You have a form of replacement theology which is not what the Bible teaches. Only using Revelation to interpret itself will confuse your interpretation of Revelation. Revelation puts in order the Prophecies of the Old Testament. You need the Old Testament if you are to study it properly. this is a short list of many references, which may number 500-700 in a book of about 450 verses: johnsnotes.com/documents/OldTestamentReferencesintheBookofRevelation.pdf |
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Post by socalexile on Nov 9, 2017 9:17:27 GMT -6
Paul uses two words for "sleep" in his writings. He uses both in 1 Thess. 4 and 5. In 1 Thess 4, the word is koimaō, like in v.15. This is Paul's word for dead Christians, to differentiate them from the dead unbelievers. In 1 Thess. 4 he uses that word to let the readers know that those believers that are physically dead will not miss the rapture. www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2837&t=KJV1 Thess. 5 is where it gets interesting. In verses 6 and 10 he switches to another word for sleep, katheudō, which according to BLB can metaphorically mean "yield to sloth and sin" or "to be indifferent to one's salvation". Why the switch if he meant the same thing as koimao earlier? Read verse 6, it makes no sense if he's talking about physically dead people. He's talking about not being given to sin and instead being alert for the Lord's return. And it's the same word in v.10., 9. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10. Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him Did you read that? Whether or not we are spiritually awake or yielded to sin, we will be with the Lord! www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2518&t=KJVIt's a matter of rewards at the Bema Seat. As we yield ourselves to the Lord he will grace us with more joy, peace, and if you study how the tribes of Israel were laid out in the promised land with those most faithful closest to Jerusalem, it MAY determine our proximity to the Lord in the re-creation. This is good, detailed synopsis on the Bema Seat: bible.org/article/doctrine-rewards-judgment-seat-bema-christBTW, I'm not a huge fan of this guy or his followers, but he does do some good writing. This is a very good book in it's analysis of Greek words and their use in the Bible: www.amazon.com/dp/B008NB9YF0/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1 |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2017 9:40:03 GMT -6
boraddict - out of curiosity - 1. What is the qualifying criteria for those who are enraptured to the exodus? 2. How are the 144,000 determined? 3. Are the people qualified for either group aware of their qualification ahead of time? If so, how are they informed? Please be as specific as practical. If one is teaching a staged rapture, one must have put some thought into what distinguishes which people are in which stage. Is this simply a predestined thing? Is it based on something about the person? I would like to preempt general answers like - the one watching, the one who loves his appearing, etc. I would want to know, what does it mean to watch. What does it mean to love his appearing. How is the threshold determined. For instance, if Tom loves his appearing 6 out of 10 and Bob loves his appearing 7 out of 10. How is that difference determined, and what does it look like in the lives of the Tom and Bob? Or maybe Bob “watches” for 6 hours a day and Tom “watches’ for 5 hours a day. What would this watching look like? And how many hours would qualify for the first rapture? There is also Sally. She watches all day long. But she has to sleep sometimes and so that prevents her of watching during that time. If you say the prerequisite is based on the works we do in faith on earth, what percentage of our time doing kingdom work count’s? If I stop kingdom work to play a game with my kids, does that take away from my likelihood of making the first rapture? If it is based on how fully I have given myself to Christ, does it demand 100% surrender 100% of the time? Or what if I live most of my life surrendered 100%, but occasionally I still walk in rebellion because I enjoy that extra piece of pie, even though it may be gluttony. It may seem like I am being facetious. I promise I am not. If you are correct, than I assume there must be scripture that describes what type of actions / emotions / commitment level we must perform / feel / commit. If you wish to present your case to this forum, most are going to want to understand this qualifying criteria and the scriptures that they come from. It is likely that this is where the argument for a partial / staged rapture is at its weakest.
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Post by boraddict on Nov 9, 2017 10:40:43 GMT -6
As I understand it, in order for the saints to be enraptured on to the exodus they must meet a qualifier. This is indicated in the parable of the ten virgins (Matt. 25:2), that the wise were ready and the unwise were not. The number ten represents a tithe of the church. Thus, not all of the church but a tithe had an election of God to go, and of them only the wise qualified. Afterwards, the unwise prepared and called to the Lord to be included in the rapture and they were refused (Matt. 25:11-12). The Parable of the Ten Virgins is a midrash teaching by Jesus on Song of Solomon, primarily chapters 3 and 5. It isn't about those in the church (which didn't exist yet) who had more faithful works than others. It's about those who believed in Christ and those who didn't. SoS 1-4 is about those who believe (Jews and Gentiles), who are raptured; SoS 5-8 is about those who didn't believe (the Jews) who missed the Messiah and face the 70th Week. The oil represents the Holy Spirit, and is given to those who believe in abundance. Matthew is written to the Jews to testify of Christ as their King and Messiah. It is not to be applied to believing Gentiles, of which the offer of salvation wasn't given yet until the time of Acts 10. Yes, I understand that Matthew was written to the Jews for the very reasons that you have stated; however, the passages therein have a much larger application. The very nature of prophetic scripture is dual prophecy. A good example is: "Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lords doing and it is marvelous in our eyes?" (Matt. 21:42, Psalms 118:21-22). This stone represents more than one Lord, and to show this I begin with: "The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstool" (Psalm 110:1). David's Lord is Lord Jesus and he was sacrificed on the altar (Psalm 118:27-29). However, The Lord is "he that cometh in the name of the Lord" (Psalm 118:26). "All nations compassed me about: but in the name of the Lord I will destroy them. They compassed me about yea, they compassed me about but in the name of the Lord I will destroy them. They compassed me about like bees; they are quenched as the fire of thorns: for in the name of the Lord I will destroy them. Thou hast thrust sore at me that I might fall: but the Lord helped me. The Lord is my strength and song, and is become my salvation" (Psalm 118:10-14). "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people but shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms and it shall stand forever. Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out to the mountain without hands..." (Dan. 2:44-45). Thus, there are two Lords represented by one stone. The first is Lord Jesus that was sacrificed on the altar and the second is he who comes in the name of Lord Jesus to destroy Lord Jesus' enemies. Likewise, the parable of the ten virgins represents more than a message for the Jews but for us as well. |
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Post by boraddict on Nov 9, 2017 11:08:52 GMT -6
Paul uses two words for "sleep" in his writings. He uses both in 1 Thess. 4 and 5. In 1 Thess 4, the word is koimaō, like in v.15. This is Paul's word for dead Christians, to differentiate them from the dead unbelievers. In 1 Thess. 4 he uses that word to let the readers know that those believers that are physically dead will not miss the rapture. www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2837&t=KJV1 Thess. 5 is where it gets interesting. In verses 6 and 10 he switches to another word for sleep, katheudō, which according to BLB can metaphorically mean "yield to sloth and sin" or "to be indifferent to one's salvation". Why the switch if he meant the same thing as koimao earlier? Read verse 6, it makes no sense if he's talking about physically dead people. He's talking about not being given to sin and instead being alert for the Lord's return. And it's the same word in v.10., 9. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10. Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him Did you read that? Whether or not we are spiritually awake or yielded to sin, we will be with the Lord! www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2518&t=KJVIt's a matter of rewards at the Bema Seat. As we yield ourselves to the Lord he will grace us with more joy, peace, and if you study how the tribes of Israel were laid out in the promised land with those most faithful closest to Jerusalem, it MAY determine our proximity to the Lord in the re-creation. This is good, detailed synopsis on the Bema Seat: bible.org/article/doctrine-rewards-judgment-seat-bema-christBTW, I'm not a huge fan of this guy or his followers, but he does do some good writing. This is a very good book in it's analysis of Greek words and their use in the Bible: www.amazon.com/dp/B008NB9YF0/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1Thank your for this recommendation and I will follow up on that when I have time to do so. There may be some confusion with rapture and the resurrection. All the dead will resurrect; however, only those who bow the knee will keep that resurrected body. Those who refuse to be bound to Lord Jesus for their eternal salvation will die a second death. Also the confusion may lie in the case that the rapture from the earth and the resurrection occur at the same time. Just exactly how that happens is beyond my understanding. Nevertheless, there are a multitude of moving parts and understanding exactly how they all fit together may be beyond our ability to discover. I do know that both the resurrection and the rapture exist. The rapture from the earth is for the living, and the resurrection from the grave is for the dead. I will look at Thess as you stated and give you my feed back. |
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Post by socalexile on Nov 9, 2017 11:30:00 GMT -6
Paul uses two words for "sleep" in his writings. He uses both in 1 Thess. 4 and 5. In 1 Thess 4, the word is koimaō, like in v.15. This is Paul's word for dead Christians, to differentiate them from the dead unbelievers. In 1 Thess. 4 he uses that word to let the readers know that those believers that are physically dead will not miss the rapture. www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2837&t=KJV1 Thess. 5 is where it gets interesting. In verses 6 and 10 he switches to another word for sleep, katheudō, which according to BLB can metaphorically mean "yield to sloth and sin" or "to be indifferent to one's salvation". Why the switch if he meant the same thing as koimao earlier? Read verse 6, it makes no sense if he's talking about physically dead people. He's talking about not being given to sin and instead being alert for the Lord's return. And it's the same word in v.10., 9. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10. Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him Did you read that? Whether or not we are spiritually awake or yielded to sin, we will be with the Lord! www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2518&t=KJVIt's a matter of rewards at the Bema Seat. As we yield ourselves to the Lord he will grace us with more joy, peace, and if you study how the tribes of Israel were laid out in the promised land with those most faithful closest to Jerusalem, it MAY determine our proximity to the Lord in the re-creation. This is good, detailed synopsis on the Bema Seat: bible.org/article/doctrine-rewards-judgment-seat-bema-christBTW, I'm not a huge fan of this guy or his followers, but he does do some good writing. This is a very good book in it's analysis of Greek words and their use in the Bible: www.amazon.com/dp/B008NB9YF0/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1Thank your for this recommendation and I will follow up on that when I have time to do so. There may be some confusion with rapture and the resurrection. All the dead will resurrect; however, only those who bow the knee will keep that resurrected body. Those who refuse to be bound to Lord Jesus for their eternal salvation will die a second death. Also the confusion may lie in the case that the rapture from the earth and the resurrection occur at the same time. Just exactly how that happens is beyond my understanding. Nevertheless, there are a multitude of moving parts and understanding exactly how they all fit together may be beyond our ability to discover. I do know that both the resurrection and the rapture exist. The rapture from the earth is for the living, and the resurrection from the grave is for the dead. I will look at Thess as you stated and give you my feed back. Please provide scripture references for these assertions, because I'm pretty sure there's some contextual misunderstanding in that. Also, that's a Post-tribulation viewpoint, which imo reads a lot of verses out of context (like Matthew 24 and 25) |
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Post by mike on Nov 9, 2017 11:32:07 GMT -6
boraddict In reading your last couple responses I fear limiting your work exclusively to Revelation has given you a perspective which lacks other areas of scripture and therefore an incomplete picture. For example there are two separate resurrections. The first is the rapture of the living and those 'saints' who have passed on before those who are alive and remain. The second, which comes 1000 years later is for those who rejected Christs atonement. These also face the second (eternal) death. So to say is incorrect. All will bow, willing at the first and unfortunately for them "forcefully" at the second.
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Post by boraddict on Nov 9, 2017 13:12:56 GMT -6
boraddict - out of curiosity - 1. What is the qualifying criteria for those who are enraptured to the exodus? 2. How are the 144,000 determined? 3. Are the people qualified for either group aware of their qualification ahead of time? If so, how are they informed? Please be as specific as practical. If one is teaching a staged rapture, one must have put some thought into what distinguishes which people are in which stage. Is this simply a predestined thing? Is it based on something about the person? I would like to preempt general answers like - the one watching, the one who loves his appearing, etc. I would want to know, what does it mean to watch. What does it mean to love his appearing. How is the threshold determined. For instance, if Tom loves his appearing 6 out of 10 and Bob loves his appearing 7 out of 10. How is that difference determined, and what does it look like in the lives of the Tom and Bob? Or maybe Bob “watches” for 6 hours a day and Tom “watches’ for 5 hours a day. What would this watching look like? And how many hours would qualify for the first rapture? There is also Sally. She watches all day long. But she has to sleep sometimes and so that prevents her of watching during that time. If you say the prerequisite is based on the works we do in faith on earth, what percentage of our time doing kingdom work count’s? If I stop kingdom work to play a game with my kids, does that take away from my likelihood of making the first rapture? If it is based on how fully I have given myself to Christ, does it demand 100% surrender 100% of the time? Or what if I live most of my life surrendered 100%, but occasionally I still walk in rebellion because I enjoy that extra piece of pie, even though it may be gluttony. It may seem like I am being facetious. I promise I am not. If you are correct, than I assume there must be scripture that describes what type of actions / emotions / commitment level we must perform / feel / commit. If you wish to present your case to this forum, most are going to want to understand this qualifying criteria and the scriptures that they come from. It is likely that this is where the argument for a partial / staged rapture is at its weakest. I do know that we must first survive the famine and stay in our homes. Beyond that it is a mystery to me. 2. It appears that the 144,000 are those who search the scriptures to find Lord Jesus and this also links to your first question. Verse 16:15 states "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame." The "they" being referred to are the devils from the previous verse. Since it was previously stated in Verse 9:4 that the 144,000 can not be hurt by these devils, then the beginning of verse 16:15 states: Behold I come as a thief, blessed are the 144,000 who watch, and keep their garments. Thus, the first requirement is to watch, and the second requirement is to keep the garments. Matt. 22:11-12 indicates that the garment is the testimony wherein it states: "And when the king came in to see the guests he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment and saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? and he was speechless." Therefore, it is my conclusion that the second requirement is the testimony. Since all the virgins in the parable of the ten virgins have a testimony of Christ, and the unwise were not ready, and afterwards became ready, then it appears that they acquired their qualifying testimony after the rapture had taken place. The question then is, what is that qualifying testimony? It is not the testimony of Christ because all the virgins had that testimony. I suspect that it is the testimony of their Moses as referenced in Verse 15:3. I am still working on that. Since my analysis is not finished then I can not confirm absolutely that what I have said is correct. Yet! 3. It appears to me that no one knows if they have met the qualifications. It is simply a matter of being invited by God the Father and accepting his invitation. The acceptance of his invitation is a matter of taking hold of those requirements that qualify the individual. This means as I have said above that the individual searches for Christ and develops his testimony. It goes beyond the testimony of Lord Jesus but to the leader of the army. The Moses, John. He has the responsibility of putting down the beast. As I said I am still working on this. 4. Wow, where do you come up with these questions? It is a little of both. The Savior knows the 144,000. They have accepted the call. He knew them 2,000 years ago. It was then that the entire plan was solemnized. It was known by God the Father millions of years ago. Everything is known.  However, it us up to us to decide. We decide if we wish to accept his invitation to go on the exodus. He does not invite everyone. First of all, we must survive the famine. Secondly, we must stay in our homes during the Passover, and if we have searched for Lord Jesus and developed our testimony then we will be raptured onto the exodus. The time period from the beginning of the famine to the rapture appears to be seven weeks. I say appears to be because I do not know for sure. There is a five month reference in Chapter 9 and I do not know how it applies. So it may be five months. I kind of doubt that however, because when the beast makes his move it will be fast. That is why I have accepted the seven weeks as the time limit and that comes from the feast of weeks. 5. Wow you are good. I do not know what constitutes an adequate amount of time for watching for Lord Jesus. I believe more weight should be given to the invitation. If someone watches all day but has not been invited then that person has to wait until the mid term rapture. However, if a person has been invited and does not search then that person fails to qualify and must also wait for the mid term rapture. Therefore it must be something internal. A fire if you will. A burn to respond. Each of us have our personal relationship with Lord Jesus. If I search scripture all day long and the next person searches for an hour and the burn is satisfied then we have equally satisfied the requirement of searching. On the other hand if I take a trip to some exotic place and set things on the back burner then I have failed to search. The search is a burn of passion. For some the flame is hotter than for others; nevertheless, we all do it in our own way. 6. Sin has little to do with the rapture. What I mean is that we all sin. We all have our flaws. Lord Jesus knows us and accepts us. There is no amount of sacrifice that we can give that helps us get on the exodus. The first rapture is simply a call to arms and only the valiant in Christ need apply. If a person lives a life of casual association then they are not committed to Lord Jesus. On the other hand, we that are committed are his servants. If someone chooses to be active in a church then that is okay. If they choose to not be active in a church then that is also okay. They simply live their lives as they choose to. However, they must be willing to live a Christ like life. To follow Lord Jesus. In my case I do not go to a church and I am not that active with my children. However, our lives revolve around Lord Jesus. We speak of him in our home. We are kind to one another. We show love to one another. We study scripture together. Then when I am out and about and I am prompted to talk to someone about the Savior I do. Or, as in most cases it is simply an act of kindness. 7. The doctrine of Lord Jesus is in the New Testament. We are simply to treat others as we would treat him and he us. 8. Do you have a recommendation on some other forum. I think the people here are quite nice. I love the debate; but I do see your point. There might be a limit to how long I might be welcomed. Additionally, I might max out all of my work with nothing left to give. At that point I might need a forum of like minded people to test my on going analysis with. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2017 13:45:34 GMT -6
I do like the scripture references about the garments - thanks for that. There was not much other scripture mentioned to support your case.
As far as other forums. I am not aware of others - unsealed is where the Lord has me for now. I would not say that you should leave or that you will be made to leave. I will just say that many here hold pretty tightly to a full (as in all believers) pre-tribulational rapture. If you can present your case from scripture, you will have a listening audience. If you present from opinion or speculation, you should expect to be challenged. This is not a bad thing. If anything it will help you flesh out your ideas. People may simply tune out if they do not see a scriptural bases for what you are teaching.
1. How do you relate the harvests of Rev 14 with your three rapture scenario?
As to your answers to my questions, my point was, of course, that the idea of a delineating line between one who is “invited” and one who is not is very complex and always ends up looking like “works.” Many here equate the rapture with salvation. So that is an area you will need to address.
I will have more questions but have to go for now
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Post by mike on Nov 9, 2017 13:49:12 GMT -6
OK this makes a little more sense now in that you seem to believe in a post-tribulation exodus and not an actual catching up. I encourage you to read 1 Thes 4:13-18, 1 Cor 15:12-28, among some others and incorporate them into your studies...I'm not going to be dogmatic about the timing of the rapture, but your understanding is limited to the study of Revelation which does not fully contemplate other vital scriptures, hence your current view. If the rapture as noted in 1 Thes 4 is an "exodus" as you suggest, how do you explain the transformation from corruptible to incorruptible? Moreover why would God wait until the end to "transform" those who believe?
You have many difficult statements in your response to SilentKnights questions. I do not have the time at the moment to get into each of these so please forgive the brevity of my response.
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Post by mike on Nov 9, 2017 13:58:23 GMT -6
one more quick point boraddict then I must run as well...In the below I do not have another recommendation. You are welcome so long as you follow the simple forum rules, and so far so good. Maxing out your work is ok, do you think that you have a corner on the interpretation (of Rev or others)? Having people that are like minded is not a bad thing, but if everyone always agrees on everything then what have you to learn? Some of your theology appears to be merit based, at least from what I've read so far and especially in #6. Mine was too at one point, then socalexile helped me understand the difference between salvation and rewards (both here/now and the hereafter). When we mingle the two we have merit based salvation. Separating the two we have the perfect atonement of Christ for salvation and the "following/discipleship" for blessing here and ruling with Him later. Please stick around - iron sharpens iron |
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Post by yardstick on Nov 9, 2017 21:21:40 GMT -6
boraddict , thank you for presenting your perspectives in this thread. I perceive your explanation to be presented from a post-trib and/or a possible multi-harpazo viewpoint. While these positions are not explicitly prohibited here, you should expect to be vigorously challenged on your exegesis; as I believe most would find your viewpoint esoteric; and potentially in violation of rule one and/or three of the board 'ToS'. I have only one thing to add to the comments and questions other moderators have presented. Please be sure to temper your absolute statements with qualifiers as there are a number of positions you have explained, which could be construed as hypotheses, opinion, conjecture and the like, but which appear to be presented as fact. There are also a number of references which, in order to reconcile them with other positions, must require conflation of two groups of people, two or more passages of scripture which would otherwise appear to not be related at all, or two or more concepts or timelines which would otherwise not be related. Thank you for patiently answering the questions asked of you.
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Post by boraddict on Nov 10, 2017 3:01:10 GMT -6
I do like the scripture references about the garments - thanks for that. There was not much other scripture mentioned to support your case. As far as other forums. I am not aware of others - unsealed is where the Lord has me for now. I would not say that you should leave or that you will be made to leave. I will just say that many here hold pretty tightly to a full (as in all believers) pre-tribulational rapture. If you can present your case from scripture, you will have a listening audience. If you present from opinion or speculation, you should expect to be challenged. This is not a bad thing. If anything it will help you flesh out your ideas. People may simply tune out if they do not see a scriptural bases for what you are teaching. 1. How do you relate the harvests of Rev 14 with your three rapture scenario? As to your answers to my questions, my point was, of course, that the idea of a delineating line between one who is “invited” and one who is not is very complex and always ends up looking like “works.” Many here equate the rapture with salvation. So that is an area you will need to address. I will have more questions but have to go for now So I thought of how I might answer your question more accurately as to how the 144,000 are determined. After a few minutes of considering this it dawned on me to turn to Verses 14:4-5 which states: "These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb, and in their mouth was found no guile for they are without fault before the throne of God." Thus, the 144,000 have the following attributes: - They do not have relations with women outside of marriage.
- They are virgins and this links to the parable of the ten virgins in which they have their lamps full.
- They follow the Lamb and this is self-evident.
- They are redeemed from among men and this is the rapture. Additionally, Verses 7:13-14 state: "And one of the elders answered saying unto me What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
- They are the first fruits unto God and the Lamb. This shows that the 144,000 are first in the order of the rapture.
- They have no guile; therefore, they do not take advantage of others.
- They are without fault; therefore they have salvation and live Christ like lives.
- They are before the throne of God and this links to Verse 4:4 showing that the 24 elders is a metaphor for the 144,000 in The Book of Revelation.
Now to answer question 1 in the above quote and thank you for that question. The harvest in Verse 14:16 is the first rapture and this is where the 144,000 as well as others are taken to the exodus. The second rapture is in Verse 14:19 and this is where the saints from throughout the earth are gathered to Zion. The third rapture is in Verse 14:20 and this is where the saints of God are taken off the earth.
The key to seeing the three raptures in Chapter 14 is to look at the reaping.
In the case of the first rapture there is a cloud at Verse 14:14 and this cloud is the coming tribulation. Lord Jesus is upon the cloud; thus, he is in total control. In his hand is a sharp sickle. That is, Lord Jesus holds in his "hand" his sharp sickle. The next verse, Verse 14:15, states that "another angel came out of the temple crying with a loud voice." This is Michael as referenced in Dan. 12:1, and he has come to the earth as referenced in Rev. 18:1. He is crying with a loud voice to the Savior that Babylon has fallen (v. 18:1) and it is time to "Thrust in thy sickle and reap, for the time is come for thee to reap for the harvest of the earth is ripe" (v. 14:15). Interestingly, since Babylon fell prior to Michael coming to the earth then the jest of what Michael is saying is for Lord Jesus to cause the first rapture. This is done as stated in the next verse, Verse 14:16, that links to Verse 18:4 in which Lord Jesus states, "Come out of her my people that ye receive not of her plagues." This is the rapture of the 144,000, the "firstfruits" of the harvest (v. 14:4).
In the case of the second rapture there is a second angel at Verse 14:17 and this is John. He has a sharp sickle and this is the 144,000 from the first rapture. Then in Verse 14:18 Michael cries with a loud cry to John to "Thrust in thy sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth for her grapes are fully ripe." This links to Verse 19:17 in which Michael tells the 144,000 (the fowls) to "come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God." Then in Verse 14:19 John thrusts in his sickle, the 144,000, and destroys the beast in the great war (v. 19:19-21). Afterwards, the saints have a victory celebration (v. 15:2) and the saints are gathered from throughout the earth to Zion; this is the second rapture. Isaiah 49:22 states: Thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.
In the case of the third rapture the wine press is trodden (v. 14:20), and this links to Verses 11:15-19 and Chapter 16. It is here that the saints are taken from the earth.
Thank your for your advice.
In your opinion, how much of my analysis is correct. Not just the stuff that I have written on this posting but the combined total of all that I have said on this site. 95%? I am especially interested in your opinion of the Chiasmus. Not that it is all that important. Also, in your opinion, how much time did it take John to write The Book of Revelation?
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Post by boraddict on Nov 10, 2017 3:07:33 GMT -6
boraddict , thank you for presenting your perspectives in this thread. I perceive your explanation to be presented from a post-trib and/or a possible multi-harpazo viewpoint. While these positions are not explicitly prohibited here, you should expect to be vigorously challenged on your exegesis; as I believe most would find your viewpoint esoteric; and potentially in violation of rule one and/or three of the board 'ToS'. I have only one thing to add to the comments and questions other moderators have presented. Please be sure to temper your absolute statements with qualifiers as there are a number of positions you have explained, which could be construed as hypotheses, opinion, conjecture and the like, but which appear to be presented as fact. There are also a number of references which, in order to reconcile them with other positions, must require conflation of two groups of people, two or more passages of scripture which would otherwise appear to not be related at all, or two or more concepts or timelines which would otherwise not be related. Thank you for patiently answering the questions asked of you. Thank you. |
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Post by mike on Nov 10, 2017 6:55:37 GMT -6
Your misunderstanding of Israel and the church will confuse your interpretation of Revelation, and the rest of the Bible. You have a form of replacement theology which is not what the Bible teaches. Only using Revelation to interpret itself will confuse your interpretation of Revelation. Revelation puts in order the Prophecies of the Old Testament. You need the Old Testament if you are to study it properly. this is a short list of many references, which may number 500-700 in a book of about 450 verses: johnsnotes.com/documents/OldTestamentReferencesintheBookofRevelation.pdfWOW Socal thats a great tool for studying Rev! I wasnt aware that many references were cited by John. Thanks |
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However, it us up to us to decide. We decide if we wish to accept his invitation to go on the exodus. He does not invite everyone. First of all, we must survive the famine. Secondly, we must stay in our homes during the Passover, and if we have searched for Lord Jesus and developed our testimony then we will be raptured onto the exodus. The time period from the beginning of the famine to the rapture appears to be seven weeks. I say appears to be because I do not know for sure. There is a five month reference in Chapter 9 and I do not know how it applies. So it may be five months. I kind of doubt that however, because when the beast makes his move it will be fast. That is why I have accepted the seven weeks as the time limit and that comes from the feast of weeks.