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Post by socalexile on Nov 8, 2017 2:29:13 GMT -6
That's what I said. Why is it that every time I apply some discernment to claims people make, you try to get involved to the detriment of the point? Are you still mad that I didnt agree to your attempt to find the Dragon to months ago? Because now whenever I post about something not making sense, you respond with a white-knighting post. That is so funny. What is a white-knighting post? I am new to this type of stuff. I propose that you give me the hardest question that you can think of about The Book of Revelation and let us reason it out together. So what's your evidence to prove that John wrote two versions of Revelation? Or are you going to attempt to distract from this point again?
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Post by boraddict on Nov 8, 2017 2:38:51 GMT -6
The problem is, your premise is based on an unproven assumption that there are two versions of Revelation, and that you're providing esoteric knowledge that John intentionally mixed up the book, confused it (which would imply that God, through the Holy Spirit is the author of confusion in this case), and that it REALLY should be how you say it is. All this does is add to the confusion, when the primary premise that there are two versions of Revelation has no empirical evidence whatsoever. I can not help but laugh. This is so much fun. I never said that there were two versions of Revelation. I said that there are a multitude of linguistic devises that hide the message of The Book of Revelation. The same is true for Ezekiel, a book that I avoid at all costs. He starts out in Chapter 1 with the resurrection, and jumps all over the place from there. Not only that, but his metaphors are not consistent with the other prophets. Thus, your argument that I have an unproven assumption is false because I have never said there are two versions of Revelation. There is one version that I was given to understand and I am sharing that information with you. Secondly, why would John not intentionally mix up the books in the second half of his work if he wanted to hide the message. It is a brilliant move on his part. It has nothing to do with confusing people since they have received the benefit of his work for 2,000 years. They were not confused but inspired to stay true to Lord Jesus. There is no confusion. However, when it is time for Lord Jesus to return then our prophets arise from the dust and their hidden messages are revealed. The hidden message is that we are to prepare to survive a famine (Rev. 18:8) and a civil war (Isa. Chapter 19). We can see it all around us. Everyone is going crazy. They are lost in Satan's madness. Right now we are at Isaiah Chapter 17, the fall of Damascus. Next is Chapter 18 that causes the work of the missionaries to stop, followed by Chapter 19. Chapter 18 links to Psalms 110, and it is there that The Lord tells Lord Jesus (David's Lord) to wait while The Lord subdues Lord Jesus' enemies. That is the second woe in The Book of Revelation and it is clearly elaborated upon in Verses 19:11-21. If I were you I might want to hear what this crazy person has to say and consider it as a possibility. I am not here to argue points of doctrine like a philosopher. I am simply a student of scripture who has been weaned from the milk and drawn from the breasts (Isa. 28:9). Reason with me as a follower of Christ and not like those who attacked Lord Jesus on the day of debate.
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Post by socalexile on Nov 8, 2017 3:05:21 GMT -6
The problem is, your premise is based on an unproven assumption that there are two versions of Revelation, and that you're providing esoteric knowledge that John intentionally mixed up the book, confused it (which would imply that God, through the Holy Spirit is the author of confusion in this case), and that it REALLY should be how you say it is. All this does is add to the confusion, when the primary premise that there are two versions of Revelation has no empirical evidence whatsoever. I can not help but laugh. This is so much fun. I never said that there were two versions of Revelation. I said that there are a multitude of linguistic devises that hide the message of The Book of Revelation. The same is true for Ezekiel, a book that I avoid at all costs. He starts out in Chapter 1 with the resurrection, and jumps all over the place from there. Not only that, but his metaphors are not consistent with the other prophets. Thus, your argument that I have an unproven assumption is false because I have never said there are two versions of Revelation. There is one version that I was given to understand and I am sharing that information with you. Secondly, why would John not intentionally mix up the books in the second half of his work if he wanted to hide the message. It is a brilliant move on his part. It has nothing to do with confusing people since they have received the benefit of his work for 2,000 years. They were not confused but inspired to stay true to Lord Jesus. There is no confusion. However, when it is time for Lord Jesus to return then our prophets arise from the dust and their hidden messages are revealed. The hidden message is that we are to prepare to survive a famine (Rev. 18:8) and a civil war (Isa. Chapter 19). We can see it all around us. Everyone is going crazy. They are lost in Satan's madness. Right now we are at Isaiah Chapter 17, the fall of Damascus. Next is Chapter 18 that causes the work of the missionaries to stop, followed by Chapter 19. Chapter 18 links to Psalms 110, and it is there that The Lord tells Lord Jesus (David's Lord) to wait while The Lord subdues Lord Jesus' enemies. That is the second woe in The Book of Revelation and it is clearly elaborated upon in Verses 19:11-21. If I were you I might want to hear what this crazy person has to say and consider it as a possibility. I am not here to argue points of doctrine like a philosopher. I am simply a student of scripture who has been weaned from the milk and drawn from the breasts (Isa. 28:9). Reason with me as a follower of Christ and not like those who attacked Lord Jesus on the day of debate. You stated on the previous page, which I highlighted, "That is, John either wrote his work as second time and placed these chapters out of order, or, he wrote these chapters out of order during his first writing" Read more: unsealed.boards.net/thread/1162/chiastic-work-on-book-revelation?page=2#ixzz4xpTDzNaJThat is saying that there are two different written versions of Revelation. So what's your empirical proof for this assertion?
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Post by boraddict on Nov 8, 2017 8:24:22 GMT -6
I can not help but laugh. This is so much fun. I never said that there were two versions of Revelation. I said that there are a multitude of linguistic devises that hide the message of The Book of Revelation. The same is true for Ezekiel, a book that I avoid at all costs. He starts out in Chapter 1 with the resurrection, and jumps all over the place from there. Not only that, but his metaphors are not consistent with the other prophets. Thus, your argument that I have an unproven assumption is false because I have never said there are two versions of Revelation. There is one version that I was given to understand and I am sharing that information with you. Secondly, why would John not intentionally mix up the books in the second half of his work if he wanted to hide the message. It is a brilliant move on his part. It has nothing to do with confusing people since they have received the benefit of his work for 2,000 years. They were not confused but inspired to stay true to Lord Jesus. There is no confusion. However, when it is time for Lord Jesus to return then our prophets arise from the dust and their hidden messages are revealed. The hidden message is that we are to prepare to survive a famine (Rev. 18:8) and a civil war (Isa. Chapter 19). We can see it all around us. Everyone is going crazy. They are lost in Satan's madness. Right now we are at Isaiah Chapter 17, the fall of Damascus. Next is Chapter 18 that causes the work of the missionaries to stop, followed by Chapter 19. Chapter 18 links to Psalms 110, and it is there that The Lord tells Lord Jesus (David's Lord) to wait while The Lord subdues Lord Jesus' enemies. That is the second woe in The Book of Revelation and it is clearly elaborated upon in Verses 19:11-21. If I were you I might want to hear what this crazy person has to say and consider it as a possibility. I am not here to argue points of doctrine like a philosopher. I am simply a student of scripture who has been weaned from the milk and drawn from the breasts (Isa. 28:9). Reason with me as a follower of Christ and not like those who attacked Lord Jesus on the day of debate. You stated on the previous page, which I highlighted, "That is, John either wrote his work as second time and placed these chapters out of order, or, he wrote these chapters out of order during his first writing" Read more: unsealed.boards.net/thread/1162/chiastic-work-on-book-revelation?page=2#ixzz4xpTDzNaJThat is saying that there are two different written versions of Revelation. So what's your empirical proof for this assertion? One way to envision it is that John wrote the entire text. Then he divided the text in half; after the earthquake at our present Verse 11:19. He then set the first half of the work aside, and separated the second half of his work into eleven chapters. He then rearranged these eleven chapters into the order that we have today. He then wrote multiple copies of this completed work (the entire book) and distributed it to the churches. or John wrote the entire text in his mind, divided the text in half, separated the second half into eleven chapters and rearranged them into the order that we have today. Then he wrote the text on paper and into multiple copies and distributed it to the churches. In either case he was inspired of God to do this work. In the first case he would have wrote the original work and then rearranged it, and in the second case the work would have been rearranged prior to penning it to paper. There is no other way to explain why the chapters are out of order in the second half of the book. Except, to say that the reminiscing chapter, chapter 14, goes before the ending in Chapter 16. Or the great war in Chapter 19 follows the end in Chapter 16. It is so obvious that these chapters are out of order. The great war in Chapter 19 precedes the ending in Chapter 16, and the reminiscing chapter, Chapter 14, brings up the end.
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Post by Natalie on Nov 8, 2017 8:26:04 GMT -6
The problem is, your premise is based on an unproven assumption that there are two versions of Revelation, and that you're providing esoteric knowledge that John intentionally mixed up the book, confused it (which would imply that God, through the Holy Spirit is the author of confusion in this case), and that it REALLY should be how you say it is. All this does is add to the confusion, when the primary premise that there are two versions of Revelation has no empirical evidence whatsoever. I can not help but laugh. This is so much fun. I never said that there were two versions of Revelation. I said that there are a multitude of linguistic devises that hide the message of The Book of Revelation. The same is true for Ezekiel, a book that I avoid at all costs. He starts out in Chapter 1 with the resurrection, and jumps all over the place from there. Not only that, but his metaphors are not consistent with the other prophets. Thus, your argument that I have an unproven assumption is false because I have never said there are two versions of Revelation. There is one version that I was given to understand and I am sharing that information with you. I find it a bit sad that there are parts of the Bible that you "avoid at all costs." I'm studying through the book of Ezekiel right now. Some of my favorite passages are in Ezekiel. What I don't understand is made clear using a good commentary. I suppose I could do the research myself, but I might as well lean on those that have already done the work. That's what they are there for. Ezekiel is a very different prophet than the others. He was to be acting out what God was going to do. Maybe if the Jews could "see" and not just "hear" then they would repent. But anyway...back to Revelation. I don't understand why the message in Revelation would need to be hidden. God reveals in the first chapter why it is being written and given to John. And then at the end He tells him not to seal it up. Daniel's vision was sealed to be understood at the end, but Revelation was never sealed.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2017 8:33:01 GMT -6
Just to give another opinion of how the words in red could be interpreted. It looks to me like boraddict is saying that John intentionally arranged things the way he did and that boraddict is discovering it. That's what I said. Why is it that every time I apply some discernment to claims people make, you try to get involved to the detriment of the point? Are you still mad that I didnt agree to your attempt to find the Dragon to months ago? Because now whenever I post about something not making sense, you respond with a white-knighting post. socalexileI did not realize there was a pattern of me doing this “every time” you expressed “discernment.” I had forgotten all about the dragon incident until you brought it up. I assure you it is not personal. But it may be behavioral. In this case, which is the only case I am aware of where you were involved, I “white-knighted” because you rudely misinterpreted what a new member had said. I felt an injustice had been done to boraddict and I didn’t want your statement on the matter to be the final voice. So I showed the watching forum that there was a different way to interpret what boraddict had said. I did not attack you, I simply gave a different assessment of boraddicts words. And indeed, my way of interpreting it was what boraddict had meant as she later clarified. This was not about you at all, socalexile. As a matter of fact, I had no problem with the discernment part of your post. Like you, I also am not at all convinced of the validity of boraddicts argument. So you and I share the same discernment. But you made a claim that boraddict said something she simply did not say and you said it in a rude manner by accusing the motive to be about promoting herself and her books. I felt a rescue was in order in this case. I am not aware of any other cases that you seem to feel have happened. If you would like me to explain them, you may need to point them out. You may want to look at my posts and you will realize that I do not attack people, but I will step in when I see a lack of civility taking place - particularly against a new member.
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Post by mike on Nov 8, 2017 8:38:41 GMT -6
Just to give another opinion of how the words in red could be interpreted. It looks to me like boraddict is saying that John intentionally arranged things the way he did and that boraddict is discovering it. That's what I said. Why is it that every time I apply some discernment to claims people make, you try to get involved to the detriment of the point? Are you still mad that I didnt agree to your attempt to find the Dragon to months ago? Because now whenever I post about something not making sense, you respond with a white-knighting post. Socal - lets try to keep this from being combative please. I understand what you are getting at but keep in mind that boraddict is new to the forum and may need to learn a little how this "on-line" thing works. Writing is certainly not my strong suit, so at times things can be meant one way when written but read differently by those reading. There are not 2 versions of Revelation, totally agreed. So lets get back to the content of how to read the book, understand what God is saying giving each other the benefit of the doubt that maybe we're not reading exactly what is trying to be said. EDIT - ideas outside the box are welcome here for discussion, so long as they stick to the 3 rules of the forum. From the New Members section - " It is also fine to have a debate now and then, but it shouldn't be done like the world would do it. When debating with someone, consider first that they are your brother or sister in Christ. Secondly, consider that they might know something that God hasn't yet revealed to you. There is no need to win an argument, but great need to show graciousness and to stand up for truth. " Please pay attention to #3 unsealed.boards.net/thread/2/new-members-read-first#ixzz4xquBP4AF
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Post by socalexile on Nov 8, 2017 9:00:11 GMT -6
In this case, which is the only case I am aware of where you were involved, I “white-knighted” because you rudely misinterpreted what a new member had said. In which case you stated my exact point. It's also rude to insert yourself as the moral authority when two people are having a discussion that does not pertain to you, especially to defend against someone asking the hard questions - which is not rude at all.
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Post by socalexile on Nov 8, 2017 9:05:41 GMT -6
That's what I said. Why is it that every time I apply some discernment to claims people make, you try to get involved to the detriment of the point? Are you still mad that I didnt agree to your attempt to find the Dragon to months ago? Because now whenever I post about something not making sense, you respond with a white-knighting post. Socal - lets try to keep this from being combative please. I understand what you are getting at but keep in mind that boraddict is new to the forum and may need to learn a little how this "on-line" thing works. Writing is certainly not my strong suit, so at times things can be meant one way when written but read differently by those reading. There are not 2 versions of Revelation, totally agreed. So lets get back to the content of how to read the book, understand what God is saying giving each other the benefit of the doubt that maybe we're not reading exactly what is trying to be said. EDIT - ideas outside the box are welcome here for discussion, so long as they stick to the 3 rules of the forum. From the New Members section - " It is also fine to have a debate now and then, but it shouldn't be done like the world would do it. When debating with someone, consider first that they are your brother or sister in Christ. Secondly, consider that they might know something that God hasn't yet revealed to you. There is no need to win an argument, but great need to show graciousness and to stand up for truth. " Please pay attention to #3 unsealed.boards.net/thread/2/new-members-read-first#ixzz4xquBP4AFAsking him to provide evidence for his assertion is not against that rule. Nor is stating one's non-belief in that assertion. There's the second issue of a third member inserting his high-minded moral authority in a discussion to defend someone from providing such evidence, while making the very argument that person they're tying to attack is. I'm sorry, leading people astray with a smile is still leading people astray. I'm asking him to prove his assertions. That is not rude, nor is it uncalled for on a discussion forum.
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Post by boraddict on Nov 8, 2017 9:08:52 GMT -6
I can not help but laugh. This is so much fun. I never said that there were two versions of Revelation. I said that there are a multitude of linguistic devises that hide the message of The Book of Revelation. The same is true for Ezekiel, a book that I avoid at all costs. He starts out in Chapter 1 with the resurrection, and jumps all over the place from there. Not only that, but his metaphors are not consistent with the other prophets. Thus, your argument that I have an unproven assumption is false because I have never said there are two versions of Revelation. There is one version that I was given to understand and I am sharing that information with you. I find it a bit sad that there are parts of the Bible that you "avoid at all costs." I'm studying through the book of Ezekiel right now. Some of my favorite passages are in Ezekiel. What I don't understand is made clear using a good commentary. I suppose I could do the research myself, but I might as well lean on those that have already done the work. That's what they are there for. Ezekiel is a very different prophet than the others. He was to be acting out what God was going to do. Maybe if the Jews could "see" and not just "hear" then they would repent. But anyway...back to Revelation. I don't understand why the message in Revelation would need to be hidden. God reveals in the first chapter why it is being written and given to John. And then at the end He tells him not to seal it up. Daniel's vision was sealed to be understood at the end, but Revelation was never sealed. Thank you Natalie for your response. I prefer to stay away from commentaries because they might provide an incorrect interpretation on some portions of the text. So for me, to work in Ezekiel would involve going through the book word by word and that is so exhausting. Not to mention his Picasso style that is beautiful but near impossible for me to comprehend. The message in The Book of Revelation was hidden to prevent Satan from corrupting the text. Secondly, the message was intended only for those who are invited to the exodus. That is, it is only for those who are going on the rapture to the exodus, and that is us. You and I are in the generation that is invited to go on the exodus. The previous generations over the past 2,000 years are not invited; therefore, it was not necessary for them and was hidden from them. Daniel's vision is now unsealed with the knowledge of the linguistic devises that I have mentioned. Our knowledge has been increased and that is what unseals the book and this is referenced in Dan. 12:4.
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Post by socalexile on Nov 8, 2017 9:15:24 GMT -6
You stated on the previous page, which I highlighted, "That is, John either wrote his work as second time and placed these chapters out of order, or, he wrote these chapters out of order during his first writing" Read more: unsealed.boards.net/thread/1162/chiastic-work-on-book-revelation?page=2#ixzz4xpTDzNaJThat is saying that there are two different written versions of Revelation. So what's your empirical proof for this assertion? One way to envision it is that John wrote the entire text. Then he divided the text in half; after the earthquake at our present Verse 11:19. He then set the first half of the work aside, and separated the second half of his work into eleven chapters. He then rearranged these eleven chapters into the order that we have today. He then wrote multiple copies of this completed work (the entire book) and distributed it to the churches. or John wrote the entire text in his mind, divided the text in half, separated the second half into eleven chapters and rearranged them into the order that we have today. Then he wrote the text on paper and into multiple copies and distributed it to the churches. In either case he was inspired of God to do this work. In the first case he would have wrote the original work and then rearranged it, and in the second case the work would have been rearranged prior to penning it to paper. There is no other way to explain why the chapters are out of order in the second half of the book. Except, to say that the reminiscing chapter, chapter 14, goes before the ending in Chapter 16. Or the great war in Chapter 19 follows the end in Chapter 16. It is so obvious that these chapters are out of order. The great war in Chapter 19 precedes the ending in Chapter 16, and the reminiscing chapter, Chapter 14, brings up the end. Again, chapters did not exist in the Bible until a millennia after it was written, so the highlighted statement has no basis in fact. What empirical evidence do you have to back your assertions? Because you are simply making a claim with no actual manuscript evidence otherwise. There is more to proving a theory than simple conjecture and claims.
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Post by yardstick on Nov 8, 2017 9:18:39 GMT -6
That's what I said. Why is it that every time I apply some discernment to claims people make, you try to get involved to the detriment of the point? Are you still mad that I didnt agree to your attempt to find the Dragon to months ago? Because now whenever I post about something not making sense, you respond with a white-knighting post. That is so funny. What is a white-knighting post? I am new to this type of stuff. I propose that you give me the hardest question that you can think of about The Book of Revelation and let us reason it out together. Someone who sweeps in to save the day, by posting a correction to someone else's error-ed attempt at correction.
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Post by socalexile on Nov 8, 2017 9:18:52 GMT -6
I find it a bit sad that there are parts of the Bible that you "avoid at all costs." I'm studying through the book of Ezekiel right now. Some of my favorite passages are in Ezekiel. What I don't understand is made clear using a good commentary. I suppose I could do the research myself, but I might as well lean on those that have already done the work. That's what they are there for. Ezekiel is a very different prophet than the others. He was to be acting out what God was going to do. Maybe if the Jews could "see" and not just "hear" then they would repent. But anyway...back to Revelation. I don't understand why the message in Revelation would need to be hidden. God reveals in the first chapter why it is being written and given to John. And then at the end He tells him not to seal it up. Daniel's vision was sealed to be understood at the end, but Revelation was never sealed. Thank you Natalie for your response. I prefer to stay away from commentaries because they might provide an incorrect interpretation on some portions of the text. So for me, to work in Ezekiel would involve going through the book word by word and that is so exhausting. Not to mention his Picasso style that is beautiful but near impossible for me to comprehend. The message in The Book of Revelation was hidden to prevent Satan from corrupting the text. Secondly, the message was intended only for those who are invited to the exodus. That is, it is only for those who are going on the rapture to the exodus, and that is us. You and I are in the generation that is invited to go on the exodus. The previous generations over the past 2,000 years are not invited; therefore, it was not necessary for them and was hidden from them. Daniel's vision is now unsealed with the knowledge of the linguistic devises that I have mentioned. Our knowledge has been increased and that is what unseals the book and this is referenced in Dan. 12:4. Well that has the potential for soteriological implications. So let me ask this. How is someone saved? Please also define what you mean by "saved" and what you think the consequence is for those not saved. Also, please explain what happens to those who are and those who are not "invited" to this "exodus". Also, please explain what texts in the Bible you think Satan corrupted.
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Post by socalexile on Nov 8, 2017 9:21:25 GMT -6
That is so funny. What is a white-knighting post? I am new to this type of stuff. I propose that you give me the hardest question that you can think of about The Book of Revelation and let us reason it out together. Someone who sweeps in to save the day, by posting a correction to someone else's error-ed attempt at correction. Problem is, he restated my very point. And it wasn't an attempt at correction, but a plea for evidence to back claims being made. Please read the third paragraph in this link.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2017 9:22:58 GMT -6
In this case, which is the only case I am aware of where you were involved, I “white-knighted” because you rudely misinterpreted what a new member had said. In which case you stated my exact point. It's also rude to insert yourself as the moral authority when two people are having a discussion that does not pertain to you, especially to defend against someone asking the hard questions - which is not rude at all. socalexile, Sometimes it is necessary to step outside oneself and look at our actions from the perspective of others. Defense of oneself is not always the way to handle things. You were not asking the “hard questions”, in the post I addressed. I like that you ask hard questions. You asked no question in that post and you accused a sister of something she did not do and then you accused her of a motive without any proof. Just go back and read what you wrote before attacking and defending. I'm not saying you are bad. I'm saying you made an error. This is a public forum meant to be a group discussion, if you really want a private conversation, you might want to change the venue of your conversation. I have made a decision that i am going to stand up when injustice is done on this forum. If that makes me a moral authority, so be it. I am not afraid of that label. Civility, brother, Civility.
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